HC Deb 11 February 1841 vol 56 cc529-33
Sir Hussey Vivian

rose to ask for leave to bring in a bill to enable the Board of Ordnance to complete the remaining portion of the ordnance survey of England and Scotland, on a similar scale to that in which the survey of Ireland was being executed. So long ago as the year 1791 the Board of Ordnance commenced the survey of this country, and the maps which had hitherto been prepared, engraved on a scale of one inch to the mile, and maps of all the counties of England, had been prepared, with the exception of the six northern counties. The Ordnance survey of Ireland was undertaken in 1825, in order to enable the Tithe Act, and the Grand Jury Cess Acts to be carried into effect, and the maps were directed to be prepared on a scale of six inches to the mile. The greatest advantage had resulted from laying down the maps on this extended scale, and it had long been a matter of regret that the maps of England had not been prepared on a similar scale. Indeed, the greatest inconvenience had been experienced in carrying some of the recent acts of the Legislature into effect, in consequence of this not having been done, and he might mention amongst others the Tithe Commutation Act and the Poor-law Amendment Act. Repeated representations had been made on the subject by several of the public departments, and they had called upon the Board of Ordnance to increase the remaining portion of the survey of England to the same scale as that of the Irish survey. He had been particularly pressed on the subject lately, and assured that by doing so a considerable expenditure would be saved. Not that such a survey could supply the place of those minute valuations of property which were necessary to carry some acts, such as the Tithe Commutation Act into effect, but it would facilitate even those surveys. He would not fatigue the House by referring to the various communications which had been read to the Ordnance department on this subject, but would merely read two letters which had been received. The first was from Mr. Dawson, of the Royal Engineers, who was engaged by the tithe commissioners in making surveys; and the other was from Mr. Chad-wick, the secretary of the poor-law commission. The right hon. and gallant officer read the following communications: Extract of Report from Lieutenant Dawson, Royal Engineers, to the Tithe Commissioners, dated September 8, 1836. In the establishment and improvement of great lines of communication through the country, such a survey is essentially requisite. It affords data for determining the best lines for roads, railroads, and canals, and enables the Legislature to judge of the merits of rival projects. Acts of Parliament for railroads have, in many cases, been sought (often fruitlessly) at an almost ruinous expense, where, from the want of an independent survey, the Legislature had little means of judging of their merits, except by the opposing representations of interested parties; a mode which renders the excessive waste of time and money inevitable. Dear Sir, February 11, 1841. It may be stated, that the surveys taken for the tithe commission have only regarded the titheable property; that the surveys taken for the poors rates have only noticed rateable property, or rateable objects, leaving generally unnoticed and undescribed, all the permanent objects of a national character, and boundaries that should be included in a general survey; that for these particular objects, of which I can speak more particularly as to the surveys for the poors rates, the surveys made have been generally very defective in point of skill, and obtained at a disproportionate expense. It is scarcely to be doubted that the machinery of a general survey may be made the means of obtaining the particular objects much better, at no greater, and perhaps at a reduced expense to the parties. The defects of the surveys already obtained, and the undue charges made for them, have been a great source of trouble in this office. Having had some occasion to examine the subject of the public information in respect to the size of parishes, I directed a comparison to be made of the statements of the acreage, as given in the census, with the results of the measurements made under the tithe surveys. The enclosed will afford fair specimens of the ordinary results shewing the only information as yet possessed to be valueless, where accuracy is required. I should observe, that the acreage, as given under the tithe survey, does not invariably include the whole of the acreage of the parish. From the frequency of applications to see the surveys made for rating, in order that they might be used for other general purposes, I should judge that the want of some settled plan of survey to answer for all public purposes is increasing. Yours, &c. (Signed) E. CHADWICK. He had received another very urgent request from the Literary and Philosophical Society of Manchester that the survey of Lancashire might be made on the same scale as that of Ireland. Similar communications had also been made to the Board of Ordnance from other philosophical societies. The matter had been maturely considered by the Board of Ordnance, and it had arrived at the conclusion, that it was desirable the counties of England hereafter to be surveyed, as well as the survey of the whole of Scotland, should be made on the extended scale. On this subject he might refer to the opinion of a most distinguished person, who for a considerable time held the office of master-general of the Ordnance, and whose opinion upon that as well as upon all other subjects was entitled to the utmost attention—he meant the Duke of Wellington, who had stated to him, that he thought that the remaining portion of the survey should be made on the enlarged scale. He would beg leave also to quote the substance of the opinion of Colonel Colby, which was to this effect,— Although it cannot be expected that any national survey should entirely supersede the necessity of all future local surveys, yet it ought to be sufficient for preliminary proceedings in the case of public works, such as railroads, canals, &c, and to enable the Government and the Legislature to form an opinion of them. The inadequacy of the present maps for these and other purposes of public improvement, is shewn by the numerous applications to this department from engineers and others engaged in such undertakings for copies of the original drawings of the Ordnance survey, and by the costly parochial surveys, which have recently been made for the settlement of tithes. For his own part, he was convinced, that hundreds of thousands of pounds would have been saved, had the Ordnance survey originally been made on the scale of six inches to the mile. He said this with confidence when he saw the necessity there was or having an extended survey for railroads, canals, and for the carrying out the tithe composition. The matter ought not to be regarded in a military point of view, but was of the greatest practical utility in a commercial as well as in other points of view. It must be obvious, in a small survey of an inch to a mile, a number of objects could not be laid down or described, which it was of considerable consequence to have accurately laid down; out in a scale of six inches this could be done, and additions might easily be made to the map itself as occasion required. He feared that the chief objection against his proposition would be on the ground of the expenditure which it would occasion; he felt that it would lead to some expense, and he should be extremely loth to propose an increased expenditure for an object which he did not believe to be of great advantage. He hoped also, that hon. Gentlemen would recollect that this was not an expenditure for any warlike purpose, but was essentially peaceable in its nature, and would be not only beneficial to the present generation, but to future ages, and tend to promote the interests of merchants, manufacturers, and indeed of all classes of the community. He hoped, after this short explanation, there would be no objection to his motion; he should, therefore, propose that leave be given to bring in a bill for executing the Ordnance survey of England and Wales on a scale to be specified.

Mr. Warburton

seconded the motion. He felt the greatest satisfaction at the proposition of his right hon. and gallant Friend, and he felt that any expenditure that would be incurred would amply repay itself in the advantages which would result from having the Ordnance maps on an enlarged scale. He did not believe, that any one in that House would object to the bill on the ground that the adoption of the plan would cost a little money. Another advantage might arise from having the maps engraved on an enlarged scale, in consequence of a discovery which had been made within the last twelvemonth — he alluded to the electrotype. Copies of the plates might be multiplied at any stage of the etching, by means of the electrotype. Thus, after the early outline had been made in the copper, copies might be taken, and these might afterwards be employed for a variety of purposes. For instance, some for railroads or canals, others for tithe commutation, &c, and thus a variety of maps might be obtained for different purposes, and this could not have been the case until the present year. With this scale of six inches to the mile, he felt assured that they might have a great variety of maps for the most useful purposes. He would suggest to his right hon. Friend the propriety of making provision, that when the survey of the north of England and Scotland, was completed, they should go over the rest of England, and prepare maps on this enlarged scale.

Mr. Shaw

felt convinced that the greatest benefit would result from having maps of the survey of England prepared on the same scale as those of Ireland.

Mr. Hume

thought that it was probable that the right hon. Gentleman alluded to him, when he stated that some Members might object to his proposition on the ground of the expense that it would lead to. If this was the case, the right hon. Gentleman was completeiy mistaken, for he cordially concurred in the motion, as he was satisfied that it was for a most useful object. He would take that opportunity of thanking the right hon. Gentleman for having adopted a suggestion which he had made, of reducing the price of the Ordnance maps. He felt, that when a survey was made at the public expense, that the public were entitled to the maps at the cheapest rate at which they could be prepared When the electrotype came to be applied in the various ways suggested by his hon Friend, and the plates from which the maps were engraved were multiplied at various stages, he had no doubt but that the present price of the maps could be reduced to one-third of what they then were.

Mr. Greene

wished to know when it was likely the survey of Lancashire would be completed.

Sir Hussey Vivian

believed that the survey of all the northern counties would be completed within four years.

Mr. Mark Philips

felt called upon to tender his thanks to the Master-General of the Ordnance for the attention which he had paid to the representations from Manchester, Liverpool, and other places on this subject. The adoption of this plan would be attended with the greatest benefit.—Leave given.