HC Deb 02 February 1841 vol 56 cc204-20
Mr. Labouchere

said, it might be for the convenience of the House, that he should state, that he was not about to ask Members to express any opinion which would be binding upon them in future stages of the question which he rose to bring forward. It had been pressed upon him by many Gentlemen, that it was desirable that the measure should be explained to the House with the substance of the resolution he meant to propose, for some days before they were called upon to decide upon it, and he willingly acceded to a course so proper in itself. It was his intention, therefore, then to make a statement of the grounds upon which, on the part of the Government, he, was prepared to recommend an alteration of the duties affecting a portion of the produce of our colonial possessions, and then to move— not that the House should go into a committee to agree to a resolution, which would bind them in future, but "that the House should on Monday next resolve itself into a select committee, to consider so much of the said Acts regulating the duties on rum." The object of the measure which he should propose for consideration was extremely simple— it was to equalise the duty on rum, whether the produce of our West-India Colonies, or of our possessions in India, and to obviate the anomaly, that whereas the law allowed sugar from our West-India colonies and sugar from the East to be introduced at an equal rate of duty, yet it placed a differential duty upon rum, although rum and sugar were equally the produce of the cane. His object was, to allow rum as well as sugar to be introduced from our East-Indian possessions at the same duty as that from the West Indies, and he thought the proposition in itself so just and reasonable, that our eastern possessions should be under no disadvantage compared with any other portion of the British dominions as to the produce of the sugar cane, which was the great staple article of their cultivation, that the whole burden of proof lay upon those who would resist a measure which was prima facie so just and reasonable. He would remind the House, that early in the last Session of Parliament a petition was presented, which both on account of the quarter from which it proceeded and the question of which it treated, was entitled to the greatest attention— he meant the petition from the Directors of the East-India Company, not only in their own name, but in that of the great empire whose interests were so closely connected with theirs, complaining of the injustice to which they considered that great empire subject, compared with other colonial possessions of her Majesty. On that occasion although he could not recommend to the House the adoption of the resolutions proposed by the chairman of the board of directors, and although there were some things which he thought required investigation, yet in the principle propounded — the right of India to be treated as favourably as our other colonial possessions-he was ready to give his unqualified assent; and when the hon. Gentleman said, that inquiry would be best conducted by referring the petition to a committee of the House, he said, that he should not offer any opposition on the part of the Government, but that he should consider it his duty to look into the petitions, and whatever he could with propriety recommend to the house he should be happy to do. In redemption of that pledge he brought forward this proposal. The duty now operated to the exclusion of East-India rum from the markets of this country—this was one of the points most prominently put forward by those who represented the East-India interests, and it was one of the subjects referred to committees of the Commons and the Lords. The committee of the Lords had alone as yet reported; and although in some particulars he was not supported in his present proposition by that report, yet so far as the principle was concerned he was completely supported; for the Lords, in their report, stated, that they considered it proper, on general principles, that rum from the East Indies should be placed on the same footing as rum from the West, but that there was something in the existing state of transition in the West-Indian colonies which would render it harsh to admit East-India produce on an equal footing at the present moment. ["Hear, hear!"] He could assure the hon. Gentleman who cheered him, that he had given the utmost consideration to that point; for it was not enough to lay down general principles, but we should consider the time and mode of applying them, and examine whether there was any degree of suffering any peculiar hardship— in any portion of our dominions, which required that they should not be pressed at the present moment. If he were not satisfied, not only that his proposition was just and equitable in itself on all true principles of commerce and of colonial policy, but that it would not have the effect on the West-Indian colonies which was apprehended— if he were not prepared to prove, that there never was anything in the world so exaggerated as the fears of those who had advocated the West-Indian interests before the Commons and the Lords, on this question, and to prove, that if the House agreed with him on the principle, that the measure ought lo be carried into effect, there was nothing in the present circumstances of the trade in ram, or in the present state of the West Indies, to prevent its being done, but, on the contrary, that the present moment was a very proper opportunity for doing it he (Mr. Labouchere) would not advocate it. Of course, the question of rum was very much mixed up with the question of sugar. If the effect of equalising the duties on rum would be to facilitate the produce of sugar in the East Indies, and to send it in greater quantities to the British market, there was no one who had paid any attention to the state of the sugar market for the last year, to the high price of the article, the loss to the revenue, and the very great privations endured by many on account of that high price, but must admit it to be the duty of that House to adopt any measure which would enlarge the supply of sugar— not from slave-growing states or foreign nations, but the produce of free labour, whether in the east or the west. He said, therefore, that if the argument with which he was to be opposed was, that he was giving an additional stimulus to the production of sugar in our East-Indian possessions, and thereby doing an injury to the West-India Colonies, he was confident, that the House would not listen to that argument, but would agree with him, that it would be most desirable to facilitate and increase the supply from the East Indies. But he confessed he could not believe, that such would be the result to any great extent. He wished he could believe, that the success of this proposition would be the augmentation to any large amount of the quantity of sugar produced in our East-Indian possessions. He could not think it would be so, but he mentioned it to show that any argument against his proposition must be founded, not on any general view of the principles of trade, but upon the ground that there were some special circumstances which would render it injurious to the West-Indian colonies to admit East-Indian sugar at the same rate of duty. It had been said that the rum would not be received from the West Indies, in the same manner as sugar was now received. Of course, in order to that it must be proved that there must be some sudden and great falling-off in the produce of rum in the West Indies, if his bill should be carried— that the market in this country would be suddenly affected injuriously to the West-India liquors. If the House would bear with him, he should be able to lay before it facts connected with the rum trade and the British market, to show how futile was this apprehension. There was this material difference between the supply of sugar and that of rum at this moment. It was well known that the supply of sugar, which was now admitted from the East and West Indies, was still very inadequate to the ordinary wants of this country. The consequence of course was, that the price of sugar in this country, thus admitted, was much higher than the price of sugar abroad. There was a great difference in the price between a pound of sugar admitted for consumption in this country, paying duty, and a pound of sugar from Cuba or the Brazils, coming into this country, and which must be re-exported elsewhere. Nominally, the West Indies enjoy the same monopoly in sugar as in rum ["No."] The hon. Member would see from the facts he should lay before the House that it was so. The East and West Indies between them were not able to send as much sugar to Great Britain as the market would consume; whilst the West Indies alone were able to send into this country a very considerably larger quantity of rum than the market here was able to take off. What was the consequence? Why, that the surplus was exported to the markets abroad, in the north of Germany and elsewhere. What followed from that? Of course, the price of rum, even in the English market, was governed by the price the surplus fetched in the third market, where the West-Indian rum had to contend with foreign rum. The House would see that sugar in bond varied much in price, whether it was or was not admissible for consumption in this country. But in rum in bond there was no such difference; or, if a difference, one of a very trifling kind; and East-Indian rum could be sold in bond without paying duty, at the same price as rum from the West Indies which was in bond, at the option of being exported abroad. In the last navy contract there were 100,000 gallons of rum, 50,000 of which were from the West and 50,000 from the East Indies; and it was got at precisely the same price. He mentioned this to show that there need be no apprehensions if the duties on East and West India produce were equalised. It had also been stated, that the immediate result would be a falling-off in the price of West-India produce, and an injury to the West Indies. But he could not see that that would be the case; on the contrary, he contended that what was at present a merely nominal advantage, might become a real advantage. It might be asked, if it were no loss to the West Indies, how could it be a gain to the East Indies? He admitted the importance of this argument; but, at the same time, it generally happened with those restrictions, that the inconvenience, on the one hand, was greater than the convenience on the other. There was one mode, for instance— the present rate of duties had operated unfavourably to the East Indies— he meant with regard to the finer qualities of rum. The rum that was exported from this country was almost entirely of a coarser description, and the finer qualities, chiefly produced in Jamaica, had a monopoly in the English market, and consequently, at present, there was no temptation to the East Indies to produce finer. If they would equalize the duties on East and West India rum, they would offer an inducement to the East-Indian cultivator to improve his article. This being a work of time, no one could say that it would produce injurious effects to the West Indies, and no one could say but that the East Indies were entitled to it as well as the West Indies. What he was particularly anxious to call hon. Gentlemen's attention to was, that some reasonable proof should be given that the change he was asking them to make would inflict a sudden and serious blow on the West Indies. He thought the House ought to require that proof. It ought not to be upon vain apprehensions or mere allegations that the House should be prepared to refuse that which no man could deny was, upon principle, a measure of justice to the East Indies. They ought to be assured that these were well-grounded apprehensions, on the part of the colonists, in reference to a measure which, on all general principles, was just and fair towards the East Indies; for he could not help observing, that any one who had attended to the evidence before the Houses of Parliament would see with how much heat, on both sides, the question had been discussed, and especially with what eagerness it had been urged by the East Indians. They were told that it was much felt in India, that it was a question of feeling, that there was a general idea, not only among the English population in the East Indies, but also among the native population, that in our commercial regulations we went out of our way to inflict injury and disadvantage on the East Indies. When he talked of public opinion as connected, with the East Indies, he was sure no one acquainted with the subject would say it was an improper expression, for there was an increased feeling and intelligence among the inhabitants of that country, which enabled them to discuss questions of this kind; and the House ought to see that there was a good and solid reason for refusing a boon of this description, urged upon them as it was by those who were best able to speak upon it, the court of directors in this country — they ought to see that they were going on a broad and solid foundation, in refusing an application of the kind. He would now read to the House a statement of figures, which would put hon. Members in possession of the fact that there was rum imported from the West Indies alone more than sufficient to supply the British market, and that a large surplus was annually exported to foreign countries, where it had to compete with rum from other countries, by which means the monopoly price in England was entirely destroyed. The right hon. Member quoted the following—

STATEMENT OF THE QUANTITIES OF RUM IMPORTED INTO THE UNITED KINGDOM, DISTINGUISHING THE IMPORTS FROM THE BRITISH WEST INDIES; ALSO OF THE QUANTITIES ON WHICH DUTY WAS PAID, AND WHICH WERE RE-EXPORTED, DURING EACH YEAR, FROM 1833 TO 1839:—
Years. Imported. Paid Duty. Re-exported
Total from all Places. From the Brit. W. Ind.
Galls. Galls. Galls. Galls.
1833 5,146,877 5,109,975 3,492,133 1,834,206
1834 5,158,489 5,112,399 3,345,177 1,642,282
1835 5,540,170 5,453,317 3,416,966 1,678,374
1836 4,993,942 4,868,168 3,324,749 1,279,845
1837 4,613,095 4,418,350 3,184,255 1,174,273
1838 4,912,227 4,641,212 3,135,651 1,134,436
1839 5,477,669 4,021,821 2,830,263 1,155,753
Besides this, there was a quantity of rum delivered for the use of the navy, and for ships stores during the same years as follows:—
West India. East India. Total.
Gallons. Gallons. Gallons.
1833 800,850 800,850
1834 790,398 790,398
1835 672,661 672,661
1836 815,928 815,928
1837 707,746 707,746
1838 690,492 3,978 694,470
1839 634,470 87,998 722,468
The point he wished to establish was, that throughout the whole course of these years there never had been a year in which there had not been a much larger quantity of rum brought from the West Indies alone than could be consumed in the English market. The consequence was, that a large surplus was annually re-exported to other countries, chiefly to the north of Germany, where it met with rum from the East Indies, Cuba, and the Brazils, and was obliged to compete with it in the markets there. If his argument was correct, he was at a loss to understand upon what the assertion of the West-India colonists rested, that if there were an equalization of duties upon the East and West India rum at this moment it would cause a serious loss, and that the present state of the home market for West-India rum would be altogether altered. He now came to a part of the subject which he believed had excited the apprehensions of many, who were nevertheless perfectly satisfied to admit rum which was actually brought from the East Indies, upon equal duties, and who clearly saw the inconsistency and absurdity of saying to the East-India colonists— "We will admit your sugar to come into competition with ours in the home market, but we will not admit your rum." But, said they, although we are quite willing to take East-India rum, we must be quite sure that it is real East-India rum. What we are afraid of is, that cheap spirit made from rice, and other kinds of spirits flavoured with rum, will be introduced into this country under the cover of imported East-India rum, to the injury of the West-India interest. Persons have also endeavoured to make it appear that it would be injurious to the revenue and to the distillers of this country to admit East-India rum; for the Gentlemen who represent the West-India interest have been vigilant in getting auxiliaries, and they endeavoured to persuade the English distillers that their interests are involved in this question. A more idle bugbear never was attempted to be set up than this pretence, that rice spirit would come into this country. In the first place, he begged to say, that the bill he proposed to lay before the House was not a bill to authorise the introduction of all spirits generally from the East Indies, but only rum made from sugar grown there. And it was his intention, if the House should at a future evening adopt the resolution he should submit to them, to propose that no rum should be admitted into this country except a certificate were obtained from the importation department of the East-India Company, that it was pure rum made from the sugar cane. The chief commissioner of the customs had told him, that he should feel just as much confidence in a certificate from the officer of the East-India Company, as he should from the Custom-house. Therefore, if any hon. Gentleman was prepared to say, that the certificate would not be worth anything, it must be admitted, that he (Mr. Labouchere) had taken sufficient pains to be satisfied that it would afford the protection required. Besides, it should be borne in mind, that foreign spirit must pay 9s. duty on being imported into this country. It was not very likely that our distillers or agriculturists would be greatly injured by a foreign spirit to be brought in here that was to pay 9s. duty, which was afterwards to be made to imitate a spirit that paid a less duty. He had not received the slightest representation, nor had his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from the distillers of this country, to induce either him or his right hon., Friend to believe that there was the least fear of that happening which Gentlemen had endeavoured to persuade the committee would result if they admitted rum, the produce of the East Indies, into this country upon equal terms with the rum of the West Indies— namely, that it would be the means of our being deluged with cheap spirits converted into a species of rum, such spirits having to pay a duty of 9s., and the importation of it to be certified as being bona fide rum, and not an inferior spirit. He might further observe, that the strict regulations which were adopted by the revenue officers to prevent the importation of any such spirit would operate as an additional precaution. As it was not intended by hon. Gentlemen on the other side to discuss this question to-night, he did not feel it necessary to make any further observations. All that he was anxious to do was to state generally the grounds upon which he made this proposition: a proposition which he sincerely believed, unless some strong reason were assigned, and some proof given on the part of the West-India interest, that its adoption would inflict a fatal blow upon them, ought, upon the ordinary principles of justice, and of sound commercial policy, to be assented to by the House. The burden of proof against its adoption, most certainly rested with those who opposed it. As he was not aware of what the nature of that proof could be, he must delay any further observations until he had heard from the hon. Gentleman who more especially advocated the West-India interest, the grounds why they were adverse to the alteration proposed. He could assure them, that if he felt he was, by the course he was now taking, inflicting an injury upon the West-India colonists, no one would be more unwilling to bring it forward than he was, but he was now anxious, that the House should adopt it, seeing, as he did, that there was growing in the East Indies a feeling of discontent with this country, which he must admit, looking at past legislation, was not wholly without ground. He was satisfied there was a public opinion forming itself even among the native population of that country, which, if they cultivated and did justice to, would prove a strong link between it and the British nation: but which, if neglected and despised, would assuredly lead to the most disastrous results. His firm conviction was, that they should cordially, voluntarily, and at once, without waiting for solicitations or petitions from any quarter, show that whatever they could do with justice to the other great interests of the empire, to reduce any inequalities and redress any grievances they might perceive to exist, as affecting the interests and well-being of the Indian population under British sway, it was their pleasure and their delight to accomplish. It was not because there were not so many Gentlemen sitting in that House connected with the East Indies as were connected with other parts of the British empire, that, therefore, that House would so far desert its duty, as not to take as deep an interest in all that concerned the feelings of the inhabitants of the East Indies, as it would in the interests of any other of the British dominions. It was on this account infinitely more than on account of the real value of the present question itself, that he should feel extremely sorry to see the House turn a deaf ear to a proposal which, he was satisfied, without inflicting any injury whatever on the West-India colonists, would give great satisfaction to our fellow subjects in the East. There were other questions connected with the petitions to which he had adverted, upon which there might be other opportunities, in the course of the Session for him to express his opinion. Some demands had been made by the East Indies, which manifestly involved questions of revenue, he meant the duty upon spices and silks and so forth; but he did not feel that this would be the proper moment to express any opinion upon such topics. There was one subject, however, which, as it could not be brought before the House as a legislative measure, depending, as it did, upon the exercise of the Queen's prerogative, he might, perhaps be permitted to take this opportunity briefly to advert to it. The directors of the East-India Company, feeling that the trade between the East Indies and the great colonies of Ceylon and Australia, was checked, and almost destroyed, by the discriminating duties imposed upon the produce of the East Indies and the produce and manufactures of Great Britain and other British dependencies, had called for redress, those duties operating prejudicially to the East Indies. The question was brought before the Committee of the House of Lords, and that Committee had recommended that these duties should at once be equalized. He must say, that if ever a real grievance were brought under the notice of Parliament, this was one. Was it to be tolerated, that the trade of the East Indies, with some of the nearest British colonies, such as Ceylon and Australia, was to be destroyed by this narrow and jealous policy of the mother country? Was so valuable a trade to be crushed by a system having no just foundation? Was it not a measure of the most obvious policy and justice, both as it regarded Ceylon and Australia, as well as the East Indies, that this state of things should be put an end to? He was therefore, happy to be able to state that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government, by an Order in Council, to do away with these discriminating duties, and to place the duty upon British produce and manufactures and the duty upon East-India produce and manufactures on the same footing. The only cause of delay in issuing this order, had been the necessity of making some alterations in the system existing in Ceylon. As soon as the duties imposed in Ceylon were regulated, her Majesty's Government were perfectly willing to concede that the markets of Ceylon and Australia should be thrown open to the produce of the East Indies, just as they were open to the produce of Great Britain and her other dependencies. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving, that the House should, on Monday next, resolve itself into a Committee, to consider so much of the Customs Duties Act (3 and 4 Will. 4) as relates to the duties on rum and rum shrub, the produce of any British possession and within the limits of the East-India Company's charter.

The question having been put,

Mr. Ewart

would not go into this subject at any length, partly because his right hon. Friend had deprecated discussion on that occasion, and partly because there was a question pending before the House that evening which might possibly disincline many hon. Members from giving that attention to a commercial subject, which it was so well qualified to command. But he must express his regret at the mode of supporting his motion which had been adopted by the right hon. Gentleman. He thought it quite unnecessary upon a measure founded on the strictest justice to argue the question as one which might possibly affect the West-Indian body, or weaken a monopoly which -had been so long maintained. The question was one of justice, it was not to be narrowed and circumscribed into a West-Indian question, or a question of any monopoly whatever. He also regretted, that the hon. Gentleman had not made his motion more extensive, and taken in a greater range of commerce. The report to which the right hon. Gentleman had alluded, opened to him a wider field than the one over which he had expatiated. There was the question of extending the commerce in sugar, which now came almost exclusively from Bengal, then was the question of allowing produce growers, in many of our East Indian possessions, to be placed on the same level with the produce of Bengal. The Mysore, too, ought to be placed upon the same footing. Those questions might all have been referred to. He would, however, reserve any further observations which he might have to make upon this subject, until the second reading of the bill. For the present he would content himself with deprecating the course of narrowing this into a mere West-Indian question, and entreating the House, when the subject came again before them, to make the measure of relief as large and comprehensive as the case required. The subject was one of vast importance, not only to the East Indies, but to Great Britain herself, and to the commerce which bound the two countries together.

Mr. Goulburn

had been taken by surprise by the motion. The report of the House of Lords was laid on the table last Session, and yet not a syllable had proceeded from the committee of the House of Commons in derogation of the opinion which the House of Lords had expressed. It was impossible for the public to imagine that the first subject to which the petition of the East-India Company had reference, was that which the committee of the House of Lords had declared to be, and which it was expedient at the time to adopt, He said, that those extensive interests which were concerned in the agitation of this question, interests more extensive than those which the right hon. Gentleman had adverted to, must betaken by surprise, and he preferred waiting the time when some substantive step was to be taken. All he would say, on the present occasion, was this, that it was at the present moment of the greatest possible importance— important as affecting the feelings of the inhabitants of the East Indies — important as affecting the interests of the West-Indian colonies, and important as being calculated to affect the great work which was there being carried into effect. At present they were embarked in the discussion of this question, in the absence of that complete preparation on the part of those who were disposed to join in it which he thought absolutely essential.

Mr. Hume

said, that if the right hon. Gentleman was surprised at what had been brought forward, he was taken by surprise, not because the proposition was so extensive and vast, but because it was so trifling. As far as it went he perfectly accorded with the measure, but it was only one act of justice when many were required. Not only the interests of India but the best resources of England had been injured by the restrictions which had been suffered to remain so long upon commerce. The vast powers of India to promote commerce, and to increase wealth, we by our legislation had actually limited and prevented. India had not had fair play, on the contrary, she had been cramped and confined in the exercise of those ample powers which she naturally possessed for the extension of her commerce. The revenue of India had consequently suffered to so great a degree, that it was scarcely able to meet its increased expenditure. If England had been benefited, it might be some excuse for this state of things, but England had herself been a loser by these restrictions He had therefore expected, that the right hon. Gentleman would have brought forward a much more extensive measure than was before the House. The right hon. Gentleman would find as much opposition to this paltry and trifling amendment as if he had brought the whole question before the House. The time was come when all legislation in relation to our commerce must be reconsidered. He would only at present enter his protest against this paltry way of dealing with the subject, and he hoped that the Government would think it right to adopt a larger measure, more suitable to the requirements of the country, and to the present state of India.

Mr. Hogg

would not have risen, had it not been to remove an impression which the observations of the right hon. Member for Cambridge were calculated to produce. He had adverted to the report of the committee of the House of Lords, and had stated that the report of the committee of the House of Commons abstained from expressing an opinion coinciding with the Lords. Such a statement might induce the House to suppose, that the committee of the House of Commons had taken into consideration the subject matter of the report, and had determined to make no report, because they were unable to coincide with the Lords. He begged to inform the House, that the subject matter of the report was never once discussed in the committee. The committee was converted into a regular West-Indian committee, and when he argued the question of the report, he was met by this observation,—"How can you report? You have not heard half the evidence. We have witnesses on every subject—witnesses from every West-India island." He was helpless. Therefore the committee unfortunately arose without making a report, because, up to the latest hour, they were so assailed by witnesses, that it was in vain to make a report. He would make one other observation as to the extent of the measure. As far as he was able to comprehend the feelings of those connected with the West Indies, he was bound to say, that the bill would be hailed with pleasure, and received with the deepest gratitude. A more extensive measure might have been, and he hoped would ere long be introduced, but the great and crying grievance, as affecting India, and the consumer, was the question of rum.

Sir J. C. Hobhouse

expressed his hope, that those Gentlemen who thought this a good measure, although it did not go far enough, still would support Ministers in this good measure. They would bear in mind the difficulties with which Ministers had to contend— the opposition of a formidable and intelligent body. He must remind them, that they had gone further in practice than the House of Lords had recommended, although not in principle, as his hon. Friend very properly explained. As far as the principle went, they recommended this change, and they said in their report, which was drawn with considerable care und dexterity, that the only objection which they made to the change was, that the West Indies were in a state of transition, which induced them not to recommend an immediate alteration. When the discussion should come on every one connected with the East Indies would be prepared to show that this argument would not apply, for there was also a transit ion going on in the East Indies. As to Ceylon and Australia, Ministers would be prepared to recommend, by an order in council, that the alteration should be made. Considering all the difficulties with which they had had to contend, they had not forgotten their duty. The House of Commons would show, that they were thinking, not of the West Indies or the East Indies, but of what they owed to the community at large; the time was past and gone by when any of the old fallacies would have an effect on the House.

Mr. O'Connell

said, that he was not going to infringe what seemed to be the tacit agreement, nor to discuss anything which would lead to contention, but on Monday next he would call the attention of the committee to the subject of preventing East-India rum being slave produce, and also to the gross neglect of the East-India Company in following up the Act of Parliament, and in violation of that act, not producing rules and regulations for the mitigation of slavery. On general grounds he, of course, approved of the Govern meat measure.

Mr. Goulburn

said, that the right hon. Gentleman proposed to put East-India articles on a footing with West-India articles, to which, of course, he supposed nobody would object, but did he propose to put the produce of the West Indies on the same footing as the produce of the East Indies, in those colonies in which an advantage was given to the produce of the East Indies over those of the West Indies?

Mr. Labouchere

was understood to say, "Certainly, if the right hon. Gentleman referred to Canada."

Dr. Lushington

quite agreed with the bon. Member for Dublin as to the absolute necessity of excluding from the equalisation any produce which might be the produce of slave land. Not only did he concur in that opinion, but he must say, that he went further; because, attached as he was to the great principles of the motion of his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, yet he thought they could not, either with justice to the West Indies, or with due regard to the great principles laid down in that House from time to time, allow the East-Indian produce to be placed upon the same footing with the produce of the West Indies, unless the whole system of slavery existing in the East Indies were altogether extinguished. It was not extinguished— it was not extirpated— it continued to flourish, not only as a domestic system of slavery, but by the import of slaves up to that very hour. In 1833 his noble Friend Lord Glenelg, when he brought in the bill respecting the Company's charter, introduced a clause putting an end to all slavery in the East Indies, and that clause passed the House, he believed, without a single dissentient. Nor was it then hastily or rashly determined upon; the most eminent men connected with the subject were consulted, and the noble Lord was informed that it would be perfectly safe, therefore the clause was carried. It was true that the Lords threw it out, but they did not do so upon principle, they wanted to have further evidence on the subject. It was his intention to ask the right hon. President of the Board of Control to produce all the papers on the subject in order to know what steps the company had taken to carry out the intentions of that House, or whether they had done anything after obtaining a full knowledge of the proceedings of that House. He thought the House would never consent to allow, in the face of all its most solemn declarations upon the subject of slavery — it never would allow those principles to be set at nought in our Eastern dominions. He would say, put the East Indies on the same footing with the West Indies in respect to slavery— let slavery be extirpated, and he would go farther than his right hon. Friend, and say, give justice to the East Indies not only in the articles of sugar and of rum, but in every other production. Fie would move for some papers, and on them he would be prepared to ground a motion for the total abolition of slavery.

Mr. Brocklehurst

stated, that the hon. Member for Beverley had assigned, as a reason why the committee had made no report, the apprehension of a still further mass of West-India evidence. Now, according to his recollection, it arose from the lateness of the Session, and a number of home manufacturers, alive to British industry, being anxious to be heard; and it was a singular fact, that in the list of evidence on which the Lords' report was founded, not one witness connected with those interests appeared to have been examined. Still, however, he had no fear but that due protection would be afforded to them in the conflict going on betwixt East and West India points at issue.

Motion agreed to.