HC Deb 09 July 1840 vol 55 cc576-9

House in Committee on the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues Bill.

On Clause 26,

Lord Eliot moved to add the following proviso, "that the canonry or canonries, or portions of canonry or canonries, which under the provisions of this act shall be annexed or appropriated to any archdeaconry, shall be in addition to the number of canonries which shall continue to exist under this bill."

The Committee divided: —Ayes 57; Noes 85—Majority 28.

List of the AYES.
Acland, T. D. Hodgson, R.
A'Court, Captain Holmes, W.
Bailey, J. Houstoun, G.
Baring, hon W. B. Jackson, Mr. Serjeant
Barrington, Viscount Knight, H. G.
Blackburne, I. Lennox, Lord A.
Boldero, H. G. Lincoln, Earl of
Boiling, W. Lygon, hon. General
Bramston, T. W. Mackenzie, W. F.
Broadley, H. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Pakington, J. S.
Clive, hon. R. H. Palmer, G.
Cochrane, Sir T. J. Parker, M.
Codrington, C. W. Parker, R. T.
Colquhoun, J. C. Pemberton, T.
Dalrymple, Sir A. Polhill, F.
Darby, G. Rolleston, L.
De Horsey, S. H. Round, J.
Dick, Q. Sandon, Viscount
Estcourt, T. Scarlett, hon. J. Y.
Feilden, W. Shaw, rt. hon. F.
Freshfield, J. W. Sheppard, T.
Gladstone, W. E. Sibthorp, Colonel
Glynne, Sir S. R. Smith, A.
Goulburn, rt. hn. H. Somerset, Lord G.
Grimsditch, T. Sturt, H. C.
Hamilton, Lord C. Sugden, rt. hn. sir E.
Thornhill, G. TELLERS.
Wynn, rt. hn. C. W. Eliot, Lord
Young, J. Inglis, Sir R. H.
List of the NOES.
Adam, Admiral Lascelles, hon. W. S
Aglionby, H. A. Loch, J.
Alston, R. Mildmay, P. St. J.
Bannerman, A. Morris, D.
Baring, rt. hn. F. T. Muntz, G. F.
Barnard, E. G. Nagle, Sir R.
Bewes, T. Nicholl, J.
Blackett, C. Norreys, Sir D. J.
Brotherton, J. O'Brien, C.
Bryan, G. Oswald, J.
Buller, C. Pattison, J.
Buller, E. Pechell, Captain
Canning, rt. hn. Sir S. Philips, G. R.
Childers, J. W. Ponsonby, C. F. A. C.
Clay, W. Power, J.
Clements, Viscount Price, Sir R.
Corbally, M. E. Pryme, G.
Craig, W. G. Rawdon, Col. J. D.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Russell, Lord J.
Duncan, Viscount Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.
Dundas, D. Salwey, Colonel
Elliot, hon. J. E. Scholefield, J.
Ellice, E. Seale, Sir J. H.
Euston, Earl of Sheil, rt. hn. R. L.
Evans, W. Somerville, Sir W. M.
Ferguson, R. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Finch, F. Stock, Dr.
Fitzsimon, N. Thornely T.
Godson, R. Tollemache, F. J.
Grey, rt. hn. Sir C. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Grey, rt. hn. Sir G. Vernon, G. H.
Grosvenor, Lord R. Vigors, N. A.
Hayter, W. G. Walker, R.
Heathcote, G. J. Wallace, R.
Hector, C. J. Westenra, hon. H. R.
Hill, Lord A. M. C. White, A.
Hindley, C. Wood, G. W.
Hobhouse, T. B. Wood, B.
Hughes, W. B. Worsley, Lord
Hume, J. Wrightson, W. B.
Hutt, W. Yates, J. A.
Hutton, R. TELLERS.
Lambton, H. Dalmeny, Lord
Langton, W. G. Tufnell, H.

Clause agreed to.

On Clause 45, providing that the profits of suppressed canonries should be vested in commissioners,

Sir R. Inglis

entertained fundamental objections to this clause, as well as to the whole principle of the bill, because it sought to merge into a common fund properties conferred by the donors upon individuals, and which was alien to the intention of the original bequests. The object of the bill was, no doubt, a good one, but the property affected by the bill was about to be placed under the control of persons who did not command his con- fidence. However reluctant he was to trouble the House with a division, yet he felt himself impelled by a strong sense of duty to do so, and to move that the clause be omitted.

The Committee divided on the question that the clause stand part of the bill:—Ayes 48; Noes 14—Majority 34.

List of the AYES.
Adam, Admiral Nicholl, J.
Aglionby, H. A. Power, J.
Alston, R. Pryme, G.
Archbold, R. Rundle, J.
Barnard, E. G. Russell, Lord J.
Bewes, T. Somers, J. P.
Bowes, J. Stanley, hon. E. J.
Bridgeman, H. Stock, Dr.
Brotherton, J. Thornely, T.
Busfield, W. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Dundas, Sir R. Verney, Sir H.
Fitzsimon, N. Vigors, N. A.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H Villiers, hon. C. P.
Greenaway, C. Westenra, hon. H. R.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir. G. Williams, W.
Hector, C. J. Williams, W. A.
Hobhouse, T. B. Wood, G. W.
Horsman, E. Wood, B.
Hume, J. Wrightson, W. B.
Kemble, H. Wynn, rt. hon. C. W.
Knight, H. G. Yates, J. A.
Lambton, H. Young, J.
Melgund, Viscount
Morris, D. TELLERS.
Musket, G. A. Parker, J.
Nagle, Sir R. Tufnell, H.
List of the NOES.
Acland, Sir T. D. Perceval, Colonel
Buller, Sir J. Y. Polhill, F.
East, J. B. Round, J.
Estcourt, T. Rushbrooke, Colonel
Feilden, W. Sibthorp, Colonel
Gladstone, W. E.
Glynne, Sir S. R. TELLERS.
Palmer, G. Ackland, T.
Parker, R. T. Inglis, Sir R, H.

Clause agreed to.

On the 55th Clause, providing for the augmentation of smaller dignities from the surplus of larger dignities,

Mr. Lambton moved the following amendment:— Provided nevertheless, that before such fixed annual sums as aforesaid, under the control of the said commissioners (being any portion of the revenues of the larger deaneries and canonries), shall be paid to the holders of the smaller deaneries and canonries respectively, consideration shall first be had by the said commissioners, in the manner hereinafter provided, to the local parochial exigencies of the dioceses from which such revenues are respectively derived.

The alienation, he said, of any part of the church revenues from the diocese to which it. originally belonged was injurious to the service of the Church; and this evil had been particularly felt in the county to which he had the honour to belong. The Bishop of London was one of the commissioners, and yet he had in his own diocese acted on a different principle from that laid down in the present bill. That right rev. Prelate had introduced a bill, which had passed the House of Lords and a first reading in the Commons, providing for the sale of the prebendal estate of Finsbury, and the application of the proceeds to the increase of small livings within five or six miles of Westminster and St. Paul's. This was a just principle, and, as he wished to see it generally acted on, he proposed his amendment.

Mr. A. White

supported the amendment. He was in the possession of collieries in the district of Durham, and he knew there was need of religious instruction among the population.

Lord J. Russell

said, the bill now proposed to increase the incomes of such canonries as were retained and fell under 70l. or 80l. a-year to 500l. out of the revenues of the larger chapters, and it was also provided, that there should be no dean with a less income than l,000l. a year. If the hon. Member's amendment were carried, it would entirely destroy the arrangements of the bill.

Lord Teignmouth

observed, that the instance referred to by the hon. Member was a peculiar case. The Bishop of London had been zealous in promoting the building of several new churches, but had been unable to procure for them a greater endowment than 50l. a-year. It was to supply this deficiency that the bill referred to had been introduced.

The Committee divided on the question that the proviso be added:—Ayes 15; Noes 50—Majority 35.

List of the AYES.
Acland, T. D. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Attwood, W. Palmer, G.
Bowes, J. Parker, R. T.
Bruges, W. H. L. Round, J.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Wrightson, W. B.
East, J. B.
Estcourt, T. TELLERS.
Evans, W. Lambton, H.
Hodgson, R. White, A.
List of the NOES.
Aglionby, H. A. Archbold, R.
Baring, rt. hn. F. T. Phillpotts, J.
Barnard, E. G. Power, J.
Barry, G. S. Pryme, G.
Benett, J. Rundle, J.
Bridgeman, H. Russell, Lord J.
Burroughes, H. N. Salwey, Colonel
Busfield, W. Somers, J. P.
Byng, G. Teignmouth, Lord
Clay, W. Thornely, T.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Tufnell, H.
Fitzsimon, N. Verney, Sir H.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Vigors, N. A.
Greenaway, C. Villiers, hon. C P.
Hector, C. J. Wakley, T.
Hobhouse, T. B. Warburton, H.
Hodges, T. L. Westenra, hon. H. R.
Hume, J. Williams, W.
James, W. Williams, W. A.
Kemble, H. Wood, G. W.
Knight, H. G. Wood, B.
Lushington rt. hon. S. Yates, J. A.
Morris, D. Young, J.
Muntz, G. F.
Muskett, G. A. TELLERS.
Nicholl, J. Parker, J.
Palmerston, Viscount Adam, Admiral

Clause agreed to.

On Clause 64, saving existing interests, Sir Robert Inglis proposed to add the words "day of the passing of this act."

The Committee divided on the question that the words be inserted:—Ayes 16; Noes 52—Majority 36.

List of the AYES.
Attwood, W. Parker, R. T.
Blair, J. Perceval, Colonel
Broadley, H. Pollen, Sir J. W.
Bruges, W. H. Round, J.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Thompson, Mr. Aid.
East, J. B. Trevor, hon. G. R.
Estcourt, T.
Hodgson, R. TELLERS.
Palmer, G. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Parker, M. Acland, T. D.
List of the NOES.
Aglionby, H. A. Eitzsimon, N.
Archbold, R. Gordon, R.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T. Goulburn, rt. hn. H.
Barry, G. S. Harcourt, G. G.
Bowes, J. Hector, C. J.
Bridgeman, H. Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.
Briscoe, J. I. Hobhouse, T. B.
Brotherton, J. Hodges, T. L.
Burroughs, H. N. James, W.
Busfield, W. Kemble, H.
Byng, G. Knight, H. G.
Clay, W. Lushington, C.
D'Eyncourt, rt. hon. C. T. Lushington, rt. hn. S.
Macaulay, rt. hn. T. B.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Maule, hon. F.
Evans, G. Morpeth, Viscount
Evans, W. Morris, D.
Finch, F. Muntz, G. F.
Pechell, Captain Vigors, N. A.
Philips, G. R. Wakley, T.
Pryme, G. Westenra, hn. H. R.
Russell, Lord J. White, A.
Salwey, Colonel Williams, W.
Sheil, rt. hon. R. L. Williams, W. A.
Somers, J. P. Yates, J. A.
Stewart, J. TELLERS.
Troubridge, Sir E. T. Parker, J.
Verney, Sir H. Tufnell, H.

Clause agreed to.

On Clause C, to be added, "seven canonries to be suppressed at Winchester,"

Mr. Aglionby

objected to the clause, the object of which was, to preserve an additional stall in Winchester Cathedral, to enable the Bishop of that diocese to fulfil a bargain he had made with the Archdeacon of Surrey for the patronage of the living at Farnham. The ecclesiastical commissioners recommended that eight out of the twelve stalls in Winchester Cathedral should be abolished. By the clause now brought up it was proposed to abolish seven only. He objected to this departure from the recommendation of the commissioners, and, if the clause were persisted in, he should take the sense of the Committee against it. He moved to substitute the word "eight," as the number of canonries which should be reduced at Winchester. The Committee divided on the original question:—Ayes 15; Noes 15—Majority 60.

List of the NOES.
Acland, T. D. Goulburn, rt. hon. H
Adam, Admiral Greene, T.
Archbold, R. Harcourt, G. G.
Attwood, W. Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.
Bailey, J. Hodges, T. L.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T. Hodgson, R.
Basset, J. Horsman, E.
Blair, J. Howard, hon. E. G.
Briscoe, J. I. Hurst, R. H.
Broadley, H. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Bruges, W. H. L. James, W.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Kemble, H.
Burroughes, H. N. Lushington, rt. hn. S.
Busfield, W. Macaulay, rt. hn. T. B.
Byng, G. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Chalmers, P. Moreton, hon. A. A.
Clay, W. Morris, D.
Cochrane, Sir T. J. Oswald, J.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Parker, R. T.
Dundas, Sir R. Perceval, Colonel
Dundas, D. Philipps, Sir R.
East, J. B. Philips, G. R.
Estcourt, T. Pigot, D. R.
Evans, W. Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.
Fitzsimon, N. Rawdon, Col. J. D.
Gordon, R. Rolleston, L.
Round, J. Verner, Colonel
Russell, Lord J. Verney, Sir H.
Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A. Vigors, N. A.
Sanford, E. A. Vivian, Major C
Sheil, rt. hn. R. L. Vivian, rt. hn. Sir R. H.
Sheppard, T. Waddington, H. S.
Smith, R. V. Westenra, hn. H. R.
Stanley, hon. E. J. White, A.
Stanley, hon. W. O. Williams, W. A.
Stock, Dr. Young, J.
Thompson, Mr. Ald. TELLERS.
Troubridge, Sir E. T. Parker, J.
Vere, Sir C. B. Tufnell, H.
List of the NOES.
Berkeley, hon. C. Salwey, Colonel
Bridgeman, H. Talbot, C. R. M.
Brotherton, J. Wakley, T.
Finch, F. Williams, W.
Hector, C. J. Wood, B.
Hobhouse, T. B. Yates, J.
Muntz, G. F. TELLERS.
Muskett, G. A. Aglionby, H. A.
Pryme, G. Pechell, Captain

Clause agreed to. Remaining clauses agreed to.

Bill to be reported. House resumed.

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