§ Lord J. Russellsaid, that before the House proceeded to the business of the day, he wished to explain what course he meant to pursue with regard to the Clergy Reserves Bill. He felt the course was such 464 as required not only that he should state it to the House at once, but that, if possible, he should have means on some future day of inserting provisions in this bill, in order to enable the House to discuss the proposition he was about to state. He had stated the other evening, in answer to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Newark, that a proposition had been made by the Archbishop of Canterbury on this subject, but it was one to which he felt himself unable to accede. He had now to state to the House, that another proposition had been made to him, the full particulars of which he had not yet seen, but which he was told was likely to obtain the assent of those who had the most right to represent the Church of England in Parliament, and who had communicated with some members of the Colonial Committee of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and he understood that they considered it perfectly fair and just towards the Church of Scotland. The proposition was to this effect:—It was founded on the opinion of the judges, which had been given in the other House of Parliament with respect to the clergy reserves. That opinion recognised the right on the part of the Church of England, and also recognised the right on the part of the Church of Scotland, to share in those reserves; and, by words which he need not quote, virtually admitted the term of Christians of other denominations, as entitling them likewise to share according to the Act of Parliament of 1791, in the proceeds of such reserves. The opinion went on to state that the Legislature of Upper Canada was incompetent to deal with the clergy reserves in the manner in which they had done, and the judges also stated their opinion with regard to the lands already appropriated. Now, this proposition proposed to deal differently with those lands that were sold under the Act of 1827, the 7th and 8th Geo. 4th, from the manner in which it was proposed to deal with the other parts of the clergy reserves. It was proposed that one-fourth, or rather the proceeds of that one-fourth which was already sold, should be given absolutely to the Church of England and the Church of Scotland, in the proportion of two to one; that is, being divided into three equal parts, two of those parts should be given to the Church of England, and one to the Church of Scotland. It was proposed 465 further, with regard to the remaining three-fourths of the clergy reserves, that they should be divided into equal parts, of which one should be given to the Church of England and Church of Scotland, and the other part should be left to the Governor and Executive Council of Canada generally for the purpose of religious worship and instruction. With respect to that part which was to be left to the Churches of England and Scotland it was proposed that a similar division, should take place as was proposed with regard to the one-fourth that was already sold—namely, two-thirds to the Church of England, and one-third to the Church of Scotland. That division did not rest on any ground of superiority of the Church of England over that of Scotland, but if they took the number of Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland alone, and the number of members of the Church of England in Canada, they would find, that the latter amounted in round numbers to about 80,000, and the former only to about 40,000. There was this further proposition, that such being the general division of the proceeds of the clergy reserves, with respect to the one-fourth which was already sold, and the proceeds of which were already partly invested in the funds of this country, and standing in the names of trustees, it was proposed, reverting to the principle which used to be adopted, and was agreed to by Parliament, but which was changed in 1833, when some modification was made by the noble Lord opposite, then Secretary of State for the Colonies, that the whole of the proceeds now payable to the Church of England and Church of Scotland out of the revenue of Upper Canada should be guaranteed permanently to the Church of England and the Church of Scotland. The amount now paid to the Church of England was 7,700l., and to the Church of Scotland 1,580l. It was now proposed to guarantee the payment permanently, It seemed to him, that if that payment were to be guaranteed at all, it ought to be done out of the funds of this country; because the funds of Canada, being already, by the Union Bill, burdened to a considerable extent for the civil list, he thought it would be unfair to burden them still further for this purpose. Now, such being the proposition that had been made to him, as one likely to secure the assent of those to whom he had before alluded, 466 it was for the Government to consider whether it were such a proposition as they could adopt. He would not argue at present the general reasons that might be urged against it or in its favour, either as to its claim being founded on the opinion of the judges, or as to its general expediency as regarded Canada: but there was another view in which it appeared to him that however deeply responsible he should become in proposing to Parliament the adoption of a proposition different from that which had been made by the Assembly and Legislative Council of Canada, yet, upon the whole, it was advisable to adopt this proposition, with reference not merely to this question of the clergy reserves, but with reference to the whole question of Canadian Government. He could not but remember the manner in which the measure which had been proposed to the Government respecting Canada— he meant the great measure of the union—had been treated both in Canada and in this House. The present Governor-general was sent out to Canada with instructions to propose a measure for the union of the provinces, but, at the same time, with full power, if he should find that the measure of the union was either impracticable or wholly inexpedient, to propose some other measure in its place, giving, at the same time, such reasons as he should think proper for such proposal. Far, however, from making any such proposition, he found the measure of the union, both in Lower and Upper Canada, met with the assent of all the authorities of either province. When this measure was introduced to this House, it was introduced without the likelihood of any other measure being more acceptable, and it was the question with the House, whether or not it was incumbent upon it to accept the measure of the Government. Such had been the alternative—and it was generally accepted by both sides of the House. Upon this ground, the union of the Canadas has had the concurrence, first, of all her Majesty's confidential servants; secondly, of the noble Lord, the Member for Northumberland, who took a profound interest in the question; it has had the concurrence of the hon. Member for Coventry, than whom there is no one better qualified to form an opinion, from his personal experience as to the practical working of the measure in Canada; it has had the active and able. 467 support of the hon. Member for Newark; it has had the support of the noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, it has had, lastly, the able support, founded upon reasons, which, in my opinion, could not be answered, and which certainly were not answered in the debate, of the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, who, in addition to his own individual merits, had filled the highest station in the councils of his Sovereign. In this House, it has been carried by almost unanimous consent, there being one hundred and fifty-six in its favour, and but six opposed to it. He could not but refer to these circumstances, and he would be most unwilling, when another question was introduced relative to Canada, not to endeavour to obtain for it something of the same general assent. He should be anxious to send to the Canadas the measures of the union and of the clergy reserves, not only by the authority of the Government, but with the general consent of the whole House. He could not persuade himself that any person deeply and extensively considering the whole interests of Canada would disappoint the hopes which were entertained, that in the present Session we shall be able to settle the affairs of Canada. Though one measure may be preferred to another — though he was not prepared to say, that another measure might not be better than the union of the Canadas—yet it would be most dangerous to induce in Canada a belief, that the Legislature were not acting upon any settled plan with respect to that province, but with capricious and party views. Believing this to be the case, and feeling that he should be responsible if in Canada parties should make it an excuse, that one Church had been treated with undue favour rather than another, yet, feeling the greater responsibility if he opposed any obstacle, on his part, to the settlement of a question on which the welfare of Canada depended, he should move, on Thursday next, in the form of an amendment, the propositions which he had detailed. Though they were not the propositions which he might think the best, yet, considering that those who had made them had conceded much of their own opinions as to what they think due to the Church of England in making these propositions, he should willingly accept them in the way he proposed, and offer them to the consider- 468 ation of the House. The noble Lord concluded by moving the postponement of the question of the clergy reserves to Thursday next.
§ Sir R. PeelI think it necessary to state, that the opinions which I have on different occasions delivered upon the subject of Canada, remain entirely unchanged. With respect to the clergy reserves, I hope this measure will be discussed in the same spirit as the union of the Canadas—and I would appeal to the House if it could be asserted, of the propositions made to the noble Lord, and by him to the House, that the Church of England had been governed by a rigid adherence to his own interests. I think that the proposition made by the Archbishop of Canterbury, distinguished as well for his high station as for his moderation, comes recommended by justice as well as forbearance. On the part of the Church of England, all obstacles are removed from the disposal of the whole of the reserve lands. The Church seeks not to reserve to herself any of these lands. After the decision of the judges, the Church of Scotland is admitted to the same right as the Church of England; and the only difference which exists is, the difference arising from the number of adherents which belong to each. With this proposition, acquiesced in by the two churches, permitting the sale of the whole of the reserve lands, with the guarantee in perpetuity of the present amount with one-third of the proceeds of the future sale, that is a proposal recommended by its intrinsic importance, as well as by its justice and moderation. It would be unfortunate, indeed, if this question should remain unsettled. It is to me a source of the greatest satisfaction, that the noble Lord acquiesces in the proposal made by the Church of England. In acceding to that proposal, I think the noble Lord has acted wisely; and I sincerely hope that this measure will be discussed in the same spirit as the question of the union, and I trust that the two measures will pass into a law with the general concurrence of the House, and by doing so, be the foundation of a happy relation between this country and Canada.
§ In answer to Mr. C. Buller,
§ Lord J. Russellreplied, it is proposed to leave one-half of the three-fourths to the disposal of the Governor-general and the executive council, for the purposes 469 of religious worship, and for education. This was done to promote unanimity in the House, because there were Opposition hon. Members who would object to any portion being grauted to the Roman Catholics.