HC Deb 25 February 1840 vol 52 cc642-5
Mr. Hume

, pursuant to a notice which he had given, moved for A return of the number of electors on the register for each county of England and Wales for the year 1839–40, and distinguishing, in classes, the number registered as freeholders, copyholders, leaseholders, occupying tenants at 50l. a year rent and upwards, or as holding qualifications of a similar nature, together with an abstract of the numbers of each class, showing the increase or decrease in number under each separate head since the returns of the registered voters at the general election in 1835 (as given in Parliamentary papers No. 199 and 227, of 1836). Also a return of the number of electors on the register of each city, town, or borough, in England and Wales, for the year l839–40, and distinguishing, in classes, the numbers registered in each place as 10l. occupiers, and the numbers registered under the old qualifications reserved by the Reform Act, specifying what such qualifications are in each, and whether the party possessed the old and the new franchise; together with an abstract of the numbers of each class, and of the whole, showing (as above) the increase and decrease since 1835. Also a return of the number of electors on the register for each county in Scotland for the year from July, 1839, to July, 1840, showing, in columns, those transferred from the old roll of freeholders to the new roll, the 10l. life rent, and those enrolled on the different qualifications of property, or lease, distinguishing in each class those enrolled as life renters and those enrolled as a joint qualification, showing a comparison of the increase or decrease since 1835. Also a return of the number of electors on the register in each city or burgh returning, or contributing to return, a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, in classes of burghs, for the year 1840, showing in columns the number of owners and occupiers, joint owners, and joint occupiers; together with an abstract of the number of each class, and of the whole, showing also a comparison of the increase or decrease since 1835. Also a return of the number of electors on the register for each county of Ireland qualified to vote at any election which may take place before the 1st day of January, 1841; and distinguishing, in classes, the numbers registered under the different qualifications, in each county; together with an abstract of the number of each class, and of the whole, showing also a comparison of the increase or decrease since 1835. Also a return of the number of electors on the register for the year, qualified to vote at any election which may take place before the 1st day of January, 1841, in each city, town, and borough of Ireland; and distinguishing the numbers in each place registered under the old qualifications, specifying what such qualifications are in each, reserved by the Reform Act, and the numbers registered under the new qualifications admitted by the Reform Act; together with an abstract of the number of each class, and of the whole, showing also a comparison of the increase or decrease since 1835.

Lord Eliot

objected to the motion of the hon. Member in its present form, on the ground that it would be productive of great trouble and expense. It might be supposed that the returns now moved for were similar to those ordered in 1836, which were alluded to in the first paragraph; but that was not the fact, because the present motion was not merely for returns of the number of electors, but for classification of them also. This would impose great labour upon the clerks of the peace of the several counties; and it could not be supposed that they were to perform such great extra labour without remuneration. Did the hon. Member intend that the counties should respectively pay the expense of getting up these returns? If so, although he did not object to the information, he must decidedly object to that mode of defraying the expense of obtaining it. Unless, therefore, the hon. Member could shew him that the expense would not fall upon the counties, he should be inclined to oppose it.

Mr. Hume

said, it was true that the noble Lord would not find the returns of 1836 in the same words as the present motion, because it had been amended in order to make it more comprehensive. The former returns were defective, and he wished to obtain complete ones. All the trouble that would be imposed upon the clerks of the peace would be merely to count up the number of voters in each printed register, and select from each page how many freeholders, copyholders, leaseholders, and occupying tenants there were. If the order were sent out from the Home-office, he hoped a prepared table to be filled up under heads would accompany that order.

Lord G. Somerset

admitted, that the information sought by the motion of the hon. Member, might not be unacceptable, but he wished to know in what way the Government could pay the clerks of the peace for furnishing it? If the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) had any means of remunerating those individuals, he should be glad to hear it. He wished the hon. Member to pause until that point was settled.

Mr. Shaw

said, that with regard to Ireland, great expenses would be incurred in getting up these returns, but they could not be charged upon the county-rate. How were they to be paid?

Mr. O'Connell

observed, that the clerks of the peace were compelled to prepare and print lists of every man who had a vote, and therefore the labour of compiling the returns from those lists would be trifling, as well as the expense.

Colonel Perceval

said, that the lists referred to by the hon. and learned Member contained a register of claimants, and were continually undergoing changes, which would render them comparatively useless in making up the returns.

Mr. Estcourt

thought the hon. Gentleman ought not to be permitted to impose this additional labour on the clerks of the peace, and that he could not get the information which he required by a motion of this sort.

Mr. Egerton

also protested against the motion, on the ground of increasing the already increased charges upon counties. If the hon. Member would send for a list to each county, he could then have an abstract made by the officers of the House.

Lord J. Russell

felt very strongly the objection founded on the extra labour imposed upon clerks of the peace in getting up returns like those now moved for by the hon. Member for Kilkenny. But if clerks of the peace were to be permitted to make out bills for their trouble, and charge them upon the public purse, an enormous burden would be imposed upon the country. These returns must be made, he apprehended, by the proper officers, and the House must take care to allow those only to be ordered which were necessary and useful.

Mr. Sergeant Jackson

begged the noble Lord to consider, that if these returns would entail an unreasonable burden upon the public purse, how much greater was the burden imposed upon the clerks of the peace who were required to get them up. He had, as chairman of a county, repeatedly seen the great trouble and expense to which clerks of the peace were put by such motions as the present. Indeed, he doubted very much whether it were practicable to make the returns from Ireland now moved for. On behalf of a very meritorious class of public officers, upon whom this gratuitous, and he thought useless, burden was to be thrown, he protested against the motion, and recommended the hon. Member to put it in a simpler form, which he might do without losing any necessary information.

The House divided; Ayes 87; Noes 76: Majority 9.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A. Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.
Aglionby, Major Hobhouse, T. B.
Archbold, R. Hodges, T. L.
Baines, E. Horsman, E.
Baring, right hn. F. T. Howard, P. H.
Barry, G. S. Lambton, H.
Bellew, R. M. Langdale, hon. C.
Bewes, T. Lynch, A. H.
Blake, M. J. Maule, hon. F.
Blake, W. J. Melgund, Viscount
Bowes, J. Morpeth, Viscount
Bridgeman, H. Morris, D.
Briscoe, J. I. Muntz, G. F.
Brocklehurst, J. Murray, A.
Buller, E. O'Brien, W. S.
Campbell, Sir J. O'Connell, D.
Clay, W. O'Connell, J.
Craig, W. G. C'Connell, M. J.
Curry, Sergeant O'Connell, M.
Duke, Sir J. Oswald, J.
Duncombe, T. Palmerston, Viscount
Elliot, hon. J. E. Parker, J.
Evans, W. Parnell, rt. hon. Sir H.
Fielden, J. Philips, M.
Finch, F. Pigot, D. R.
Fleetwood, Sir P. H. Protheroe, E.
Gisborne, T. Pryme, G.
Gordon, R. Redington, T. N.
Grattan, J. Russell, Lord J.
Hastie, A. Rutherford, rt. hn. A.
Hindley, C. Salwey, Colonel
Scholefield, J. Turner, W.
Seymour, Lord Verney, Sir H.
Sheil, right hon. R. L. Vigors, N. A.
Somerville, Sir W. M. Wallace, R.
Stanley, E. J. Ward, H. G.
Stansfield, W. R. C. Wilbraham, G.
Staunton, Sir G. T. Williams, W.
Stuart, W. V. Williams, W. A.
Strutt, E. Wood, Sir M.
Style, Sir C. Wood, G. W.
Tancred, H. W. Wood, B.
Thornely, T. TELLERS.
Troubridge, Sir E.T. Hume, J.
Tufnell, H. Warburton, H.
List of the NOES.
Acland, Sir T. D. Jermyn, Earl
Acland, T. D. Knight, H. G.
Arbuthnot, hon. H. Litton, E.
Bailey, J. jun. Lowther, J. H.
Bentinck, Lord G. Mackenzie, T.
Blackburne, I. Mahon, Viscount
Blair, J. Maunsell, T. P.
Blakemore, R. Meynell, Captain
Bolling, W. Miles, P. W. S.
Broadley, H. Milnes, R. M.
Broadwood, H. Norreys, Lord
Bruges, W. H. L. Parker, R. T.
Buck, L. W. Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.
Burrell, Sir C. Perceval, Colonel
Cholmondeley, hon. H. Plumptre, J. P.
Clerk, Sir G. Praed, W. T.
Darby, G. Pringle, A.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Pusey, P.
Duncombe, hon. W. Rickford, W.
Egerton, W. T. Rolleston, L.
Farnham, E. B. Round, C. G.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Rushbrooke, Colonel
Filmer, Sir E. Sandon, Viscount
Fox, S. L. Scarlet, hon. J. Y.
Freshfield, J. W. Shaw, right hon. F.
Godson, R. Sibthorp, Colonel
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. Somerset, Lord G.
Greene, T. Sotheron, T. E.
Grimsditch, T. Stanley, Lord
Hamilton, Lord C. Sutton, hon. J.H.T.M.
Henniker, Lord Vere, Sir C. B.
Hepburn, Sir T. B. Verner, Colonel
Hinde, J. H. Waddington, H.
Hope, hon. C. Wilbraham, hon. B.
Hope, G. W. Wodehouse, E.
Hurst, R. H. Wood, Colonel T.
Hurt, F.
Ingestrie, Viscount TELLERS.
Inglis, Sir R. H. Eliot, Lord
Jackson, Sergeant Estcourt, T.