HC Deb 13 February 1840 vol 52 cc229-34
Mr. Brotherton

rose to move, pursuant to his notice, that no new business which shall be objected to by any five Members be brought on after twelve o'clock at night. The hon. Member said, that every session complaints were made by Members that Bills were gone through over night which they wished to take part in, but found that they were too late when they looked into the "Votes" next morning. He thought the rule he proposed would much facilitate public business. If it were understood that the business was to be gone through before midnight, he thought the House would contrive to find time to do it in. He believed the British Parliament was the only public assembly in the world that did its business by night. It was most important that the public should know what they were doing, but during the debates on the question of privilege it was found that a great portion of their proceedings were gone through too late to be published, and the House might as well have been doing nothing all that time.

Lord John Russell

said—Sir, it does not seem to me to be necessary to pass any motion on this subject. Where five Members object seriously to any business after midnight, it is evident that no motion can be brought forward. But in a case of great importance it would evidently be unwise to give Members such a controlling power. I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion. I think there is no prudence in saying that persons, having other occupations, might be absent from the House, and that the business could be transacted by those Members who are able to attend during the day. As to official persons, I believe that I devote as much time to the business of this House as I possibly can. With official business and parliamentary business I have been occupied about twelve hours this very day; and if I were to attend here in the morning, I must do the official business in the evening; but then you will lose the advantage of having lawyers in the House, for they cannot prevent the Courts of Law from sitting during the day. On these grounds therefore, I do not think it expedient to agree to the motion of the hon. Gentleman.

Sir R. Peel

said, I think it unnecessary to enter into the discussion of any general question whether a great change ought to be made in the conduct of public business in this House. Some may think it better that the House should meet at ten o'clock in the morning, but I do not consider it necessary to enter upon that question, further than to suggest the extreme difficulty of so total a change. But I object to this motion on other grounds. It appears to give a sort of Parliamentary sanction to commencing new business at half-past eleven; for observe, the power of five Members to object does not commence until the clock has struck twelve; and what a strange position of things it would be, that five Members should be waiting till the clock struck before they could object to the House proceeding with any new business, and that after that they should be invested with a power of objecting to any. There is much business which I should object to commencing at half-past eleven. I might object to bringing on a motion of great importance at eleven; all depends upon circumstances. If there was likely to be an adjourned debate, and the mover would have the opportunity of making a criminatory speech, without the possibility of an answer being given to it, I might object to proceed after half-past ten; there- fore I say it is impossible to lay down any definite rule for the guidance of the House upon the subject. But now assuming that the House sits till twelve, according to the present practice, if three or four Gentlemen only persist in objecting to any further business, I defy a man to bring forward a motion, if the sense of the House is against him; and even suppose a small minority is overruled, are they without a remedy? Not at all; they can resort to that remedy which the forms of the House allow—moving an adjournment. I have, further, a decided objection to giving to five Members any such power as this of controlling the majority. It is quite true that a single Member has the power of clearing the gallery; but then that is so because the rule of the House is not to allow strangers to be present at all; and it is merely necessary for a Member to notice the fact of their presence in order to secure their exclusion. But to say that five men should be clothed with the absolute power of preventing the House from proceeding with any new business after a certain hour, would, in my opinion, only lead to cabals and conspiracies, against the progress of particular measures. If the sense of the House is at any time in favour of commencing new business, is it right that five Members should have the power of controlling that decision? Upon these grounds I decidedly object to the motion of the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Brotherton

, in reply, said, that during the present session the House had often sat very late, but nothing had as yet been done which would infringe on his motion. As to the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet that Members could move the adjournment, he would only say, that a great deal of time was often lost by debates on questions of adjournment, and one object of his motion was to remedy that inconvenience.

The House divided:—Ayes 25; Noes 145; Majority 120.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, Major Hume, J.
Blake, M. J. James, W.
Brocklehurst, J. Langdale, hon. C.
Busfeild, W. Morris, D.
Callaghan, D. O'Brien, W. S.
Collins, W. O'Connell, D.
Gillon, W. D. O'Connell, M. J.
Greig, D. Pattison, J.
Hector, C. J. Salwey, Colonel
Scholefield, J. Williams, W.
Smith, B. Wood, Sir M.
Vigors, N. A. TELLERS.
Villiers, hon. C. P. Brotherton, J.
White, A. Ewart, W.
List of the NOES.
Acland, T. D. Hope, hon. C.
Adam, Admiral Hope, G. W.
Alston, R. Howard, P. H.
Attwood, W. Howard, Sir R.
Bagge, W. Hughes, W. B.
Baines, E. Hutton, R.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T. Inglis, Sir R.
Beamish, F. B. Jones, J. H.
Bellew, R. M. Kirk, P.
Bentinck, Lord G. Knatchbull, Sir E.
Blackburne, I. Knox, hon. T.
Blackstone, W. S. Lennox, Lord G.
Blair, J. Lincoln, Earl of
Blake, W. J. Litton, E.
Blennerhassett, A. Lockhart, A. M.
Boldero, H. G. Lowther, J. H.
Bolling, W. Lushington, C.
Bramston, T. W. Lushington, S.
Bridgeman, H. Mackenzie, T.
Broadley, H. Mackenzie, W. F.
Broadwood, H. Macleod, R.
Campbell, Sir J. Marshall, W.
Cholmondeley, H. Martin, J.
Clerk, Sir G. Maule, hon. F.
Corbally, M. E. Melgund Viscount
Courtenay, P. Meynell, Captain
Craig, W. G. Miles, W.
Curry, Mr. Sergeant Miles, P. W. S.
Darby, G. Muntz, G, F.
D'Eyncourt, C.T. Murray, A.
Divett, E. Norreys, Sir D.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Norreys, Lord
Duncombe, hon. A. Packe, C. W.
Dundas, Sir R. Palmerston, Lord
Elliot, hon. J. E. Parker, J.
Ellis, W. Parker, R. T.
Evans, W. Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.
Filmer, Sir E. Perceval Colonel
Fleetwood, Sir P. H. Perceval hon. G. J.
Gaskell, J. Milnes Pigot, D. It.
Glynn, Sir S. R. Pigot, R.
Godson, R. Pinney, W.
Gordon, R. Pryme, G.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. Ramsbottom, J.
Greene, T. Redington, T. N.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. Rickford, W.
Grimsditch, T. Roche, E. B.
Grimston, Viscount Rolleston, L.
Hamilton, Lord C. Round, J.
Handley, H. Rushbrooke, Colonel
Harland, W. C. Russell, Lord J.
Hastie, A. Rutherford, A.
Hawes, B. Scarlett, J. Y.
Hawkins, J. H. Shaw, F.
Hill, Lord A. M. C. Sheil, R. L.
Hinde, J. H. Sheppard, T.
Hobhouse, T. B. Sibthorp, Colonel
Hodges, T. L. Smith, R. V.
Hodgson, R. Somerville, Sir W. M.
Holmes, W. Sotherton, T. E.
Spry, Sir S. T. Vivian, J. H.
Stanley, E. Vivian, J. E.
Stanley, Lord Waddington, H. S.
Stuart, Lord J. Wallace, R.
Stuart, W. V. Warburton, H.
Stormont, Viscount Whitmore, T. C.
Strutt, E. Winnington, Sir T. E.
Sutton, J. H. T. M. Wise, T.
Tancred, H. W. Young, J.
Thornley, T.
Vere, Sir C. B. TELLERS.
Verner, Colonel Stanley, E. J.
Verney, Sir H. Stuart, R.