Sir H. Vivianregretted, that on account of indisposition, it would not be in his power to go into the subject of the Ordnance estimates so fully as he could have wished; he hoped, however, that the indulgent consideration of the House would not attribute any deficiency which might appear in his statement to a want of proper attention on the part of the Board. It was fortunately the less necessary for him to enter into much lengthened explanation, because the estimates themselves ever since the Duke of Wellington had 1231 been Master-General, were so clear and comprehensive that any hon. Gentleman might at once understand them. Contenting himself with observing, that he should have been wanting in his duty to the Crown and the country, if he had under any circumstances allowed the great department under his charge to fall into a state of inefficiency for any extraordinary emergency which might arise, he would at once proceed to point out how the excess of expense beyond last year was to be incurred. In the first vote, which had reference to the Tower and Pall-mall, there was an excess of £.1,057, which arose from additional establishments of clerks, &c., which had been found necessary in New South Wales and Canada. In the second vote, which was for the Royal Engineers, Sappers, and Miners, there would be found an excess of £.33,430; that was an excess in appearance more than in reality. A considerable portion of it, £26,598, for various allowances to the officers of Royal Engineers and Sappers and Miners, was formerly charged on the extraordinaries, but had now been transferred to the ordinary estimate. There was also an additional company of sappers and miners at Corfu, which was to be paid for out of the contribution of 25,000l. per annum received from the Ionian states. Hitherto the sum contributed by those islands had not appeared on the estimates; but he had felt it to be his duty to bring the matter under the eye of Parliament; and it would now be seen, as he had stated, that the increase in this vote was more apparent than real. There was also a charge for an additional company of sappers and miners sent to Canada. That caused an increase of 2,560l. in that item. The vacant commissions in the engineers had also created an increase of 1,800l. The next point to which he should call the attention of the committee was the third vote, that for the Royal Artillery, including an addition of 216 men for Canada, amounting to 6,550. Here too was a transfer from the extraordinaries to the Ordnance estimates, including 6,372l. for beer-money to the artillery. Looking at the extraordinary demands which had been made during the last three years on the artillery for Canada, for St. Helena, and for other quarters of our empire, the increase was not more than sufficient; and, if he had erred at all, it was rather in leaving that force de- 1232 ficient than in augmenting it too much. As he was willing to hope that circumstances might arise which would liberate a part of these men, he had been unwilling to ask her Majesty's Ministers to make any increase to the force at present. Here, too, several commissions had been filled up among the junior officers, which had occasioned an increase of 2,000l. The fourth vote was for the salaries of the barrack-masters in the United Kingdom and on foreign stations. Here, too, was an increase of 1,287l., occasioned by the establishment of three new barracks; two of them in Canada, rendered necessary in consequence of the disturbances there, and one in Australia. The fifth vote was for the extraordinaries, including ordnance work and repairs, storekeepers' expenditure, pay of clerks of works, building and repair of barracks, barrack-masters' expenditure, &c. Here there was an increase of 28,968l. apparently. This increase would have amounted to 50,000l. had it not been for some diminutions which had been effected in some details. The charges in the Ionian islands amounted to 13,000l., but these would be defrayed by the Ionian islands themselves. There was also an addition of 11,000l. for labour, the workmen being now engaged six instead of five days in the week. There was also an increase of 10,000l. for building lock-up houses at the different barracks, in order to supersede the necessity of corporal punishments. There was also 10,000l. extra expenditure for new barracks. The Ordnance was called upon to take the charge of the new barracks erected in the colonies. This of course increased the charge for them in the estimates, and therefore it was not fair to compare the charge of this year with that of last. 10,000l. had been added in consequence of the expenditure thus incurred in St. Helena, Gambia, and Australia. These items had never before appeared in the Ordnance estimates. The excess of the next item, the 6th in the votes, above that of last year, was 3,643l. In this item was included the survey of England, Scotland, and Ireland. The excess of expenditure this year above that of last year for the survey was 11,000l. It had been deemed important that the survey should be pressed in all the three countries, and therefore it was proposed to take a larger sum this year; and if it had not been for a diminution of 8,000l. which 1233 had been effected in the civil and military contingencies, the excess of this item would have been upwards of 11,000l. He could assure the committee that every possible saving consistent with the efficiency of the department had been made in this item. The next, and the most important vote of all, was the vote for stores. On that vote there was an excess of 63,000l. above that of last year. Last year the vote for small arms was 25,000l.; this year it was 30,000l. He should state that the establishment of small arms had been reduced as far as it could be with propriety; it was now under 200,000 stand. He had let it go so low, because it was quite clear that in case of war we should have to provide ourselves with improved arms; and whenever that event took place the officer at the head of the Ordnance would have to come down to the House and ask for a large vote to provide percussion arms. He had taken great pains in looking into this branch of the subject; and he was happy to say that considerable improvement had been already made. If our soldiers were again called upon to take the field, they must be provided with arms in which they could place perfect confidence. A committee had sat, of which his gallant Friend near him (Colonel Anson) was the chairman, and had decided as to what were the best arms for the cavalry, the infantry, and the rifles. The first recommendation of the committee was, that the arms for all three services should be of a similar bore. Formerly the musket, the rifle, the carbine, and the pistol, were all of different bore. Now they would all be of the same bore, and the bullet would be the same for all these different descriptions of arms. The percussion rifle had been highly approved by the rifle corps, and also by the Commander-in-chief. The carbine which had been provided for the cavalry had also been approved of in the highest terms. He had received a report from the colonel in command of the 5th Dragoon Guards, now in Canada, and also from the colonel of the 7th Hussars, stating that they were the best arms of their kind which they had ever seen. The musket for the infantry was also a superior description of arms; and he held in his hand a report of the result of a trial which had been made between it and the flint musket. Out of 2,000 rounds by percussion arms, nine only missed fire; out of 2,000 rounds by 1234 flint-muskets, 822 missed fire. By percussion arms there were out of that number 777 hits, by flint-muskets 540 only; so that the number of miss-fires by flint-muskets, instead of being only nine out of 2,000, was nearly one-half, and considerably more than a third, and the number of hits by the percussion muskets was greater than the number by flint-muskets by the excess of 777 over 540. In case therefore of war, it would only be justice to the soldier to have him provided with percussion arms. In the next vote, which contained the expense of services performed by the office of Ordnance, and not provided for by Parliament in 1838–9, there was a small increase of 989l. In the ninth vote, which was for superannuated allowances, there was a diminution of 5,449l.; and in the tenth vote, which was for commissariat supplies, there was also a diminution of 1,990l. There was thus upon the whole estimates a sum of 150,049l. more to be voted this year than had been voted last year. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving that there be granted to her Majesty a sum not exceeding 116,851l., for the purpose of defraying the civil establishments of the Ordnance at the Tower and Pall-mall, of the departments at Woolwich, of the outstations in the United Kingdom, and of the foreign stations.
§ Mr. Humecomplimented the right hon. and gallant Officer upon the clear manner in which the Ordnance estimates were this year drawn up. Considering the circumstances under which the estimates for the army and navy had been voted this year, it did not appear to him right to detain the House, as it would otherwise have been his duty to do, upon these estimates. After we had determined to employ a certain number of men in the army and in the navy, we were bound to supply them with all they required to make their service effective. Considering, also, how necessary it was to provide for the efficiency of the Royal Artillery, he should not object to the present vote. Though these estimates were, in his opinion, double what they ought to be in time of peace, yet they were not out of proportion to the number of men voted. Our engineers might vie with those of any service in Europe, and yet, strange to say, there was nothing like the same proportion of engineer officers on the staff of the army in our service, that there was in the army of every other 1235 nation in Europe. He protested against making these large increases in all the estimates, when it was notorious that the revenue was deficient. The House ought not to vote such estimates, until the Chancellor of the Exchequer had explained his ways and means for the year. He complained of the studied evasion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that point. He thought, that with such estimates the right hon. Gentleman would have no other alternative than that of adding to the taxes of the country. He objected to the system now acted on. The country was in a wretched state. It had no Government, and no Opposition. There was a strong and well-compacted party Opposition; but no economical Opposition. As a Reformer he was in a false position, and though very unwilling to change sides, his duty almost forced him to do it. He hoped, however, that the times would mend.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the sum of 330,326l. being proposed for defraying the charges for Ordnance works, repairs, &c., in the United Kingdom and the Colonies,
§ Mr. Humethought, the charges made for the admission of the public to the Tower and other public buildings should be discontinued.
Colonel Ansonsaid, the charge for admission to the Tower was very small, being only one shilling; but he should be very happy to see all fees for admittance to the Tower and similar buildings, abolished.
§ Mr. Wakleysaid, the fee of one shilling was large or small, according to the means of the individual paying it. A shilling was of more importance to a poor man who earned but 12s. or 13s. a week, than 500l. or 600l. was to the gallant Colonel. It was surprising to find, when the money of the people was voting away, that out of 320 Members of the Opposition in that House, there were six now present. The right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tam-worth, was probably of opinion, that it was not for them to object to the voting of money, which his party would have the spending of. It was, however, a woeful thing to think that, with a reduced revenue, the expenditure of the present year was to be increased beyond that of the last by nearly three millions. And yet the present Ministers came into office as a reforming and an economic Govern- 1236 ment. He hoped some explanation of the increase in the vote would be given.
Sir Hussey Viviansaid, the increase to which the hon. Member alluded, arose from additional pay being allowed to medical officers for length of service. The increased allowance did not, however, extend to assistant surgeons. He thought there were great objections to throwing open such a place as the Tower, containing 100,000 stand of flinted arms, to the public indiscriminately.
§ Mr. Briscoecondemned the principle of compelling the public to pay 1s. each for admittance to the Tower.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was the wish of the Government to give every facility to the public to view every object of interest over which the Government had any control.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Question that a sum of 144,061l. be granted for the Barrack Service.
§ Colonel Thomascomplained of the state in which the barracks were. They had not been painted in many cases for several years—they were a disgrace to the country. He was surprised to find the hon. Member for Kilkenny who had amassed a large fortune in India by supplying rations to the army, getting up night after night in the House and opposing every measure that would tend to the comfort and convenience of the soldier.
§ Mr. Humewould give a flat denial to the statement of the gallant Officer opposite that he was in the habit of opposing every measure that was brought forward for the good of the army—it was utterly untrue; he had never opposed any measure calculated to attain that object. No man in the House had done more to improve the condition of the private soldier than he had done; he would merely allude to his attempts to do away with the punishment of flogging. With regard to what had taken place in India, the gallant Officer had been talking on a subject about which he could know nothing. His statements were utterly untrue. The gallant Officer had uttered falsehoods in that House. He had talked about his feeding the troops, what did he mean by speaking on such subjects? He had never done anything in his life that he was not proud of, and therefore he called upon the hon. and gallant Officer to state what he meant by such an unwarrantable attack to which he had 1237 given its proper designation. He hoped be would be more cautious the next time as to the statements he made, as it would be utterly impossible public business could be carried on if attacks were made in this way. Whether he was connected with physic or not, he would defy any one to say he had ever done anything he ought to be ashamed of. The conduct of the gallant Officer might appear extraordinary, but the House would perceive from his manner the reason of his conduct.
§ Colonel Thomassaid, that the circumstance to which he alluded was well known. The hon. Gentleman had been an assistant surgeon, and afterwards appointed commissary. [Mr. Hume: That is not true.] He had heard so when he was in India. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's assertion that he had uttered a falsehood, it was too contemptible for him to notiee, it was beneath his contempt.
The Chairmansaid, these were attacks which ought not to be made; he very much lamented that this conversation had ensued.
§ Sir R. H. Viviansaid, if the barracks were in a disgraceful state, the hon. and gallant Member was himself to blame. When he had first become Ordnance Master he had sent a circular round, in 1836, to the barrack-masters, ordering everything to be prepared for the comfort of the troops, and ordering anything that was wanted to be stated; and therefore, if there was any want, those who had command of the barracks were the persons to blame, and not the Ordnance Department. If complaints had been made in the proper quarter, they would have been attended to directly.
§ Colonel Thomashad not reflected, either personally on Sir H. Vivian, or on his department. What he had stated was the fact—that the barracks were in a disgraceful state, and had not been painted for years. He (Colonel Thomas) understood from the gallant officer of the district, that so far from not having made any complaints, he had written as many reports respecting the state of the barracks as would fill a room.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next motion was, that the sum of 188,000l. be granted for defraying the charge for stores for the ordnance and military-store branch.
§ Captain Bolderowished to know if the 1238 marines were not to have great-coats allowed them. It would only cost the country 2,000l. He had brought before the country the situation in which the marines were, the other night. There were 1,200 men serving in Spain with the artillery, and these marines had to find their great-coats. He was of opinion that they were entitled to have their coats provided. He had proved that the order of 1805 authorized this as clearly as possible, and that order had never been rescinded. They were therefore bound to prove the authority on which they made the marine pay for his great-coat. If they had it not, it ceased as a matter of course. It would make the marines happy and content to put them under the same regulations as the other soldiers, which he thought ought to be done.
§ Viscount Howicksaid, the marines were not subject to any disadvantage. The disadvantage was the other way; they were a favoured branch of the service. He thought these comparisons between the pay of different branches of the service ought not to be made without extreme caution, and certainly not without a more accurate knowledge of facts, than the hon. and gallant officer had shown.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The House resumed, and adjourned for the Easter Holidays to April 8th.