HC Deb 07 May 1838 vol 42 cc952-64

House in Committee on the Plurality of Benefices Bill.

On Clause 22 (no spiritual person beneficed or performing ecclesiastical duty shall engage in trade, or buy to sell again for profit or gain, excepting in cases of keeping schools, &c., buying and selling anything for the bonâ fide use of the family, or buying and selling cattle, &c., for the use of his own lands, &c.) being read,

Mr. Courtenay

rose to propose the amendments of which he had given notice, and said, that the clause as it then stood would inflict great injustice on clergymen. For instance, if a clergyman had lent 100l. to one of his parishioners, and the latter owing to misfortunes in trade had become bankrupt, possessing no assets except shares in canals, or joint stock banks, an assignee is appointed, who becomes as it were trustee for the clergyman and thus the latter would become indirectly a trader, which might destroy his chance of receiving anything in liquidation of the sum which, in the generosity of his heart, he had advanced to a poor parishioner. The hon. Member, after a few other preliminary remarks, in which he stated, that the clause was full of absurdities, concluded by moving the following amendment:—1st, in lines 16 and 17 to strike out "And that every bargain so made contrary to this act shall be utterly void as to such spiritual person." 2d, at the end of the clause to add the following additional proviso:—" Provided, always, that no prohibition nor restriction on the trading or dealing of any spiritual person, or of any other person for him, or to his use, contained in this act, shall extend, or be deemed to extend, to any trading or dealing by him, or by any other person to his use, in any case where such trading or dealing shall have been or shall be carried on, by or on the behalf of any number of partners exceeding the number of six; nor in any case where any trade or dealing, or any share in any trade or dealing, shall have devolved or shall devolve upon any spiritual person, or upon any other person for him or to his use, under or by virtue of any devise, bequest, inheritance, intestacy, settlement, marriage, bankruptcy, or insolvency."

The Attorney-General

admitted, that there was a great deal of point in the remarks of the hon. Member, but as it had been argued by high authorities, that according to the present law if any clergyman should become a shareholder in a joint-stock bank all contracts of that bank would become null and void, consequently it was necessary to put some restraint on the trading of clergymen, and as the amendments proposed would not tend to that purpose, he felt it necessary to oppose the hon. Member's motion.

Sir E. Sugden

said, that although he agreed in substance with the amendment, still there should be some check, lest clergymen might become individual traders, and, in his opinion, it would be advisable to give the diocesan a power of control over any clergyman who had become a trader. As both sides of the House seemed anxious to modify the clause, he should recommend, that it stand over for a short time, in order to give Members an opportunity of considering its merits.

Mr. Courtenay

thought it was necessary that some similar amendment to that proposed by him should be introduced; but if the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) would take the subject in hand, he would withdraw his motion.

Clause postponed.

On the 27th Clause,

Sir R. Inglis

recalled the attention of the House to the petition which he had presented, from the dean, sub-dean, and chapter of the College of Christchurch, at Oxford, praying to be exempted from the operation of the clause. The hon. Baronet observed, that there was this peculiar circumstance about the case of the petitioners, namely, that the chapter of Christchurch was not merely a chapter, but a college. All that they wanted was, as respected themselves, the continuance of the existing law. The hon. Baronet moved an amendment to that effect.

The Committee divided on the Amendment:—Ayes 52; Noes 75:—Majority 23.

List of the AYES.
Baker, E. Duncombe, A.
Boldero, H. G. East, J. B.
Bramston, T. W. Egerton, W. T.
Bruges, W. H. L. Egerton, Sir P.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Ellis, J.
Burr, H. Estcourt, T.
Canning, Sir S. Farnham, E. B.
Chandos, Marquess of Filmer, Sir E.
Compton, H. C. Fleming, J.
Freshfield, J. W. Moreton, hon. A. H.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes Neeld, J.
Glynne, Sir S. R. Neeld, J.
Granby, Marquess of Norreys, Lord
Grimston, Viscount Perceval, hon. G. J.
Hale, R. B. Praed, W. M.
Halford, H. Price, R.
Hodgson, R. Rae, Sir W.
Hughes, W. B. Reid, Sir J. R.
Ingestrie, Viscount Round, C. G.
Mackenzie, W. F. Round, J.
Maidstone, Viscount Sibthorp, Colonel
Marsland, T. Somerset, Lord G.
Master, T. W. C. Teignmouth, Lord
Maunsell, T. P. Villiers, Lord
Meynell, Captain
Miles, W. TELLERS.
Miles, P. W. S. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Milnes, R. M. Estcourt. T.
List of the NOES.
Alsager, Captain O'Brien, W. S.
Anson, hon. Colonel O'Callaghan, C.
Baines, E. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Barnard, E. G. Paget, F.
Barrington, Viscount Parnell, Sir H.
Barry, G. S. Pusey, P.
Berkely, hon. C. Rice, rt. hon. T. S.
Bewes, T. Rich, H.
Blunt, Sir C. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Bowes, J. Rundle, J.
Brocklehurst, J. Russell, Lord J.
Brotherton, J. Salwey, Colonel
Bulwer, E. L. Scholefield, J.
Busfield, W. Seymour, Lord
Cavendish, G. H. Sheppard, T.
Chapman, Sir M. L.C. Slaney, R. A.
Childers, J. W. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Collier, J. Stewart, James
Divett, E. Stuart, Lord J.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Stuart, V.
Duff, J. Sturt, H. C.
Dundas, Captain D. Style, Sir C.
Fazakerley, J. N. Talbot, J. H.
Fergusson, C. Turner, E.
Fitzroy, Lord C. Verney, Sir H.
Gordon, R. Vernon, G. H.
Hastie, A. Vigors, N. A.
Hawes, B. Vivian, Sir R. H.
Hayter, W. G. Warburton H.
Hector, C. J. White, A.
Hill, Lord A. M. C. Williams W.
Hinde, J. H. Wood, C.
Hume, J. Wood, T.
Humphrey, J. Worsley, Lord
Hutt, F. Wrightson, W. B.
Kemble, H. Yates, J. A.
Kinnaird, hon. A. F. TELLERS.
Knight, H. G. Stewart, R.
Lushington, C. Parker, J.
The Marquess of Chandos

moved to extend the exemption contained in the clause for the head masters of colleges, and public schools, to the lower masters.

The Committee divided on the Amendment:—Ayes 60; Noes 76; Majority 16.

List of the AYES.
Acland, T. D. Mackenzie, W. F.
Boldero, H. G. Maidstone, Viscount
Bowes, J. Marsland, T.
Bruges, W. H. L. Master, T. W. C.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Maunsell, T. P.
Burr, H. Miles, W.
Canning, rt. hn. Sir S. Miles, P. W. S.
Cavendish, hon. G. H. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Cayley, E. S. Neeld, J.
Cole, Lord Neeld, J.
Compton, H. C. Nicholl, J.
Duncombe, hon. A. Norreys, Lord
East, J. B. Packe, C. W.
Egerton, W. T. Perceval, hon. G. J.
Egerton, Sir P. Price, R.
Estcourt, T. Rae, rt. hn. Sir W.
Farnham, E. B. Rolleston, L.
Filmer, Sir E. Round, C. G.
Fleming, J. Round, J.
Freshfield, J. W. Sheppard, T.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes Sibthorp, Colonel
Glynne, Sir S. R. Somerset, Lord G.
Goulburn, rt. hn. H. Stuart, Lord J.
Granby, Marquess of Teignmouth, Lord
Grimston, Viscount Villiers, Viscount
Halford, H. Vivian, Major C.
Harcourt, G. S. Vivian, J. E.
Hodgson, R. Worsley, Lord
Hughes, W. B. TELLERS.
Ingestrie, Viscount Chandos, Marquess of
Inglis, Sir R. H. Praed, W. M.
List of the NOES.
Alsager, Captain Lister, E. C.
Anson, hon. Colonel Lushington, C.
Baines, E. Mactaggart, J.
Barnard, E. G. Milnes, R. M.
Barrington, Viscount Milton, Viscount
Barry, G. S. Murray, rt. hn. J. A.
Berkeley, hon. C. O'Brien, W. S.
Bewes, T. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Blackett, C. Parker, J.
Bramston, T. W. Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.
Brotherton, J. Protheroe, E.
Busfield, W. Pryme, G.
Cavendish, hon. C. Pusey, P.
Chapman, Sir M. L. C. Rich, H.
Childers, J. W. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Collier, J. Rundle, J.
Divett, E. Russell, Lord J.
Duff, J. Salwey, Colonel
Dundas, Captain D. Sandon, Viscount
Evans, W. Scholefield, J.
Fazakerly, J. N. Seymour, Lord
Fergusson, rt. hon. R. C. Slaney, R. A.
Fitzroy, Lord C. Spiers, A.
Hastie, A. Stanley, E. J.
Hawes, B. Stanley, Lord
Hill, Lord A. M. C. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Hume, J. Stewart, J.
Hutnphery, J. Stuart, V.
Kemble, H. Sturt, H. C.
Kinnaird, hon. A. F. Style, Sir C.
Knight, H. G. Surrey, Earl of
Leveson, Lord Talbot, J. H.
Troubridge, Sir E. T. White, A.
Turner, E. Wood, C.
Verney, Sir H. Wood, T.
Vernon, G. H. Wrightson, W. B.
Vigors, N. A. Yates, J. A.
Vivian, right hon. Sir R. H. TELLERS.
Steuart, R.
Warburton, H. Gordon, R.
Mr. Hawes

moved to add a proviso limiting the value of any benefice to which the clause applied to 500l.

The Committee divided on the Amendment:—Ayes 45; Noes 68: Majority 23.

List of the AYES.
Alsager, Captain O'Brien, W. S.
Attwood, T. Pinney, W.
Bewes, T. Protheroe, E.
Brocklehurst, J. Pryme, G.
Brotherton, J. Roche, W.
Butler, hon. Colonel Rundle, J.
Cavendish, hon. G. H. Salwey, Colonel
Childers, J. W. Scholefield, J.
Collier, J. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Curry, W. Stuart, V.
Easthope, J. Style, Sir C.
Ebrington, Viscount Talbot, J. H.
Evans, W. Verney, Sir H.
Fazakerly, J. N. Vigors, N. A.
Fitzroy, Lord C. Warburton, H.
Kemble, H. Wood, Sir M.
Kinnaird, hon. A. F. Worsley, Lord
Lister, E. C. Yates, J. A.
Lushington, C. TELLERS.
Melgund, Viscount Hawes, B.
O'Brien, C. Hume, J.
List of the NOES.
Acland, T. D. Harcourt, G. S.
Anson, hon. Colonel Hodgson, R.
Baker, E. Hoskins, K.
Barnard, E. G. Hughes, W. B.
Barrington, Viscount Inglis, Sir R. H.
Blackburne, I. Knight, H. G.
Blackett, C. Leveson, Lord
Boldero, H. G. Lockhart, A. M.
Bruges, W. H. L. Marsland, T.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Milnes, R. M.
Burr, H. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Busfield, W. Murrray, rt. hn. J. A.
Cavendish, hon. C. Neeld, J.
Cole, Viscount Neeld, J.
Compton, H. C. Nicholl, J.
Courtenay, P. Parker, J.
Duncombe, hon. A. Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.
Dundas, Captain D. Pendarves, E. W. W.
East, J. B. Perceval, hon. G. J.
Estcourt, T. Praed, W. M.
Fergusson, rt. hn, C. Pusey, P.
Filmer, Sir E. Rae, right hon. Sir W.
Freshfield, J. W. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes Round, C. G.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Round, J.
Halford, H. Russell, Lord John
Sandon, Viscount Turner, E.
Seymour, Lord Vernon, G. H.
Sibthorp, Colonel Vivian, right hon. Sir R. H.
Stanley, E. J.
Stanley, Lord Wood, C.
Sturt, H. C. Wrightson, W. B.
Sugden, rt. hn. Sir E.
Surrey, Earl of TELLERS.
Teignmouth, Lord Steuart, R.
Troubridge, Sir E. T. Gordon, R.
Mr. Hume

said, that as the clause stood the deans of all cathedrals and the head masters of Winchester, Westminster, and Eton, schools, and the head warden of Durham University, could hold livings to any amount, and at any distance from their residences; he therefore should move, that the clause be omitted altogether.

The Committee divided on the question, that the clause as amended stand part of the bill:—Ayes 69; Noes 34: Majority 35.

List of the AYES.
Acland, T. D. Marsland, T.
Alsager, Captain Milnes, R. M.
Baker, E. Mordaunt, Sir James
Barnard, E. G. Murray, J, A.
Boldero, H. G. Neeld, J.
Bruges, W. H. L. Neeld, J.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Nicholl, J.
Burr, H. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Busfield, W. Pendarves, E. W. W.
Cavendish, hon. C. Perceval, G. J.
Cavendish, hn. G. H. Praed, W. M.
Cole, hon. A. H. Pusey, P.
Compton, H. C. Rae, Sir W.
Courtenay, P. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Dundas, Captain D. Round, C. G.
East, J. B. Round, J.
Estcourt, T. Russell, Lord John
Fazakerly, J. N. Sandon, Viscount
Fergusson, right hon. R. C. Sibthorp, Colonel
Stanley, E. J.
Filmer, Sir E. Stanley, Lord
Freshfield, J. W. Steuart, R.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes Stewart, James
Gordon, R. Stuart, V.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Sturt, H. C.
Halford, H. Sugden, Sir E.
Hodgson, K. Surrey, Earl of
Hoskins, R. Teignmouth, Lord
Hughes, W. B. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Inglis, Sir R. A. Turner, E.
Jephson, C. D. O. Vernon, G. H.
Kemble, H. Wood, C.
Knight, H. G. Wrightson, W. B.
Labouchere, rt. hon. H.
Lockhart, A. M. Seymour, Lord
Mackenzie, W. F. Parker, J.
List of the NOES.
Brocklehurst, J. Brotherton, J.
Bryan, G. Protheroe, E.
Butler, hon. Colonel Pryme, G.
Childers, J. W. Roche, D.
Collier, J. Rundle, J.
Curry, W. Salwey, Colonel
Davies, Colonel Stansfield, W. R. C.
Duke, Sir J. Style, Sir C.
Duncombe, A. Talbot, J. H.
Easthope, J. Verney, Sir H.
Evans, W. Vigors, N. A.
Fitzroy, Lord Warburton, H.
Kinnaird, A. F. Williams, W. A.
Lister, E. C. Wood, Sir M.
Lushington, C. Worsley, Lord
Marsland, H.
Melgund, Viscount TELLERS.
O'Brien, C. Hawes, B.
O'Brien, W. S. Hume, J.

On Clause 28,

Sir Robert Inglis

moved to extend the exemptions contained in the clause to the proctor, public orator, librarian, or registrar, of the Universities, on the ground that the salary was insufficient, and that it was, therefore, desirable that he should be allowed to hold church preferment.

The Solicitor-General

objected to the exemption, as it was necessary that the orator should be constantly resident during the terms, although his duties might only occupy him for a short time each day. If it were intended to exempt him, he ought to have been included in the 27th section, which contained the general exemption.

Mr. Goulburn

said, that Gentlemen on that side of the House, had not so included them because they were anxious to reduce as much as possible the number included in the general exemption.

The Committee divided on Sir Robert Inglis's motion:—Ayes 30;—Noes 52: Majority 22.

List of the AYES
Acland, T. D. Lockart, A. M.
Burr, H. Mackenzie, W. F.
Chute, W. L. W. Marsland, T.
Cole, Viscount Monypenny, T. G.
Compton, H. C. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Courtenay, P. Nicholl, J.
East, J. B. Parker, M.
Estcourt, T. Praed, W. M.
Freshfield, J. W. Price, R.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes Pryme, G.
Goring, H. D. Round, J.
Grimsditch, T. Sibthorp, Colonel
Halford, H. Teignmouth, Lord
Harcourt, G. S.
Heathcote, Sir W. TELLERS.
Hodgson, R. Goulburn, H.
Hughes, W. B. Inglis, Sir R. H.
List of the NOES.
Adam, Admiral Morpeth, Visct.
Alsager, Captain O'Brien, C.
Barnard E. G. Parnell, rt. hon. Sir H.
Brocklehurst, J. Pendarves, E. W. W.
Brotherton, J. Protheroe, E.
Bruges, W. H. L. Pusey, P.
Bryan, G. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Busfield, W. Round, C. G.
Butler, hon. Colonel Rundle, J.
Cavendish, hon. G. H. Russell, Lord J.
Childers, J. W. Salwey, Colonel
Curry, W. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Dalmeny, Lord Surrey, Earl of
Davies, Colonel Talbot, J. H.
Duke, Sir J. Tancred, H. W.
Dundas, Captain D. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Ebrington, Viscount Turner, E.
Evans, W. Vigors, N. A.
Fergusson, rt. hon. R. C. Williams, W. A.
Gordon, R. Wood, Sir M.
Hawes, B. Wood, G. W.
Heathcote, J. Worsley, Lord
Hoskins, K. Wrightson, W. B.
Hume, J. Yates, J. A.
Kemble, H.
Lister, E. C. TELLERS.
Lushington, C. Wood, C.
Marsland, H. Parker, J.
Mr. Pryme

then moved an addition to the clause to the effect of exempting from residence on their benefices, spiritual persons holding professorships and wholly resident within the precincts of the Universities, and annually lecturing therein. There were many professors, such as those of chemistry and experimental philosophy, whose time was engrossed out of term in making experiments on which to found their lectures, and under such circumstances he submitted their residence for such an object in the Universities, ought to be held as equivalent to residence on their benefices.

Lord J. Russell

said, that he could not concur in the amendment proposed by his hon. and learned Friend. The bill as drawn, had made a distinction between permanent and temporary exemptions, and that distinction the hon. and learned Gentleman by his proposition would do away with altogether. The parties whom the hon. and learned Gentleman sought to relieve, had undertaken two duties—viz., professorships at Universities, and a cure of souls. Now this bill provided, that while the individual who held both these duties should, while engaged, giving lectures at the University, be reckoned as resident on his benefice, yet that when not so engaged, his presence at his cure should be required, with the exception of three months in each year, when he would be exempted altogether. Now, he could not think, that this was at all an unfair or severe regulation, and being unwilling to carry exemptions from residence on benefices any further, he should give his negative to the present proposition.

Mr. Pryme

would not press his amendment.

Mr. Hume

moved the addition of a proviso to the effect that a clergyman, on leaving his benefice to perform other duties, should give notice thereof, and of the grounds of his absence, in writing to the churchwardens of the parish, who should affix the same in some conspicuous place within the walls of the church.

Lord John Russell

opposed the amendment as unnecessary. In the schedule of the bill, certain questions as to absence, and the cause of absence, were required to be put annually by the bishop to each incumbent, and those questions, so answered, could, without great difficulty, be returned to Parliament.

Mr. Goulburn

objected to the amendment. The parishioners, if they attended church, would not see their pastor in the pulpit, and could easily ascertain the cause, and if such absence was too long, they would by the law created by this bill have a remedy. Surely, the hon. Member would not require a rector to stick up handbills, announcing that he was going out of the parish.

Mr. Hume

contended, that the regulation he proposed was necessary, in order to enable parishioners to ascertain whether or not he was neglecting his duty. It appeared from a return, that no less than 1,016 clergymen' had been absent from their livings, and that even their bishops were ignorant of the causes of their absence.

The Committee divided on the question of adding the proviso:—Ayes 21;—Noes 76: Majority 55.

List of the NOES.
Brocklehurst, J. Lister, E. C.
Brotherton, Joseph Marsland, T.
Bryan, G. Monypenny, T. G.
Butler, hon. Col. O'Brien, C.
Curry, W. Protheroe, E.
Evans, G. Rundle, J.
Heathcote, J. Salwey, Colonel
James, W. Talbot, J. H.
Jephson, C. D. O. Turner, E.
Turner, W. TELLERS.
Vigors, N. A. Hume, J.
Wood, Sir M. Lushington, C.
List of the NOES.
Acland, Tho. D. Lockhart, A. M.
Adam, Admiral Mackenzie, W. F.
Alsager, Captain Marshall, W.
Bailey, J. Marsland, H.
Bailey, J., jun. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Barnard, E. G. Morpeth, Visct.
Barry, G. S. Nicholl, J.
Broadley, H. Noel, W. M.
Bruges, W. H. L. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Busfield, W. Parker, J.
Cavendish, hon. G. H. Parker, M.
Childers, J. W. Parker, T. A. W.
Chute, W. L. W. Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.
Cole, Visct. Pendarves, E. W. W.
Compton, H. C. Price, R.
Courtenay, P. Pryme, G.
Davies, Colonel Rice, E. R.
Duke, Sir J. Roche, D.
Dundas, Captain D. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
East, J. B. Round, C. G.
Ebrington, Visct. Round, J.
Estcourt, T. Russell, Lord J.
Evans, W. Shirley, E. J.
Fergusson, rt. hon. R. C. Somerville, Sir W. M.
Freshfield, J. W. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes Surrey, Earl of
Gordon, R. Tancred, H. W.
Goring, H. D. Teignmouth, Lord
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Grimsditch, T. Verney, H.
Guest, J. J. Wilkins, W.
Harcourt, G. S. Williams, W. A.
Hawes, B. Wood, T.
Hawkins, J. H. Worsley, Lord
Heathcote, Sir W. Wrightson, W. B.
Hodgson, K. Yates, J. A.
Hoskins, K.
Hughes, W. B. TELLERS.
Inglis, Sir R. H. Sibthorp, Col.
Kemble, H. Wood, C.

The Clause to stand part of the bill.

On Clause 29,

Sir obert Inglis

moved to substitute for the word "five," in line 22, the word "six," in order to give persons who held cathedral preferment, together with a benefice, the same privilege as to leave of absence as was enjoyed by clergymen not having that kind of preferment, but holding two benefices.

Lord J. Russell

objected to the motion on the ground that a party holding two benefices was supposed to reside in one of them during the whole of nine months, the other parish which he held in plurality being at so very short a distance from his first preferment. If he agreed to the Amendment of his hon. Friend, and allowed of three months' absence in the case of a clergyman holding cathedral preferment, the result would be, that only half a year could in any way be given to his benefice, as he would be obliged to reside for three months on his prebend.

Mr. East

supported the Amendment, as he thought that clergymen holding cathedral preferment, ought to be put upon a par with others.

The Committee divided on the question that the blank be filled up with the word five.—Ayes 70: Noes 28; Majority 42.

List of the AYES.
Adam, Admiral Marsland, Henry
Alsager, Capt. Money penny, T. G.
Attwood, T. Morpeth, Viscount
Bailey, J. Nicholl, J.
Bailey, J., jun. Noel, W. M.
Bewes, T. O'Brien, Cornelius
Broadley, H. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Brocklehurst, J. Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.
Bruges, W. H. L. Pendarves, E. W.
Bryan, G. Protheroe, E.
Bulwer, E. L. Pusey, P.
Busfield, W. Rice, E. R.
Chute, W. L. W. Roche, D.
Compton, H. C. Rundle, John
Dalmeney, Lord Russell, Lord J.
Duke, Sir J. Salwey, Colonel
Dundas, Capt. D. Seymour, Lord
Ebrington, Visct. Tancred, H. W.
Evans, G. Townley, R. G.
Fellowes, E. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Fergusson, right hon. R. C. Turner, E.
Turner, William
Goring, H. D. Verney, Sir H. Bart.
Grey, Sir C. E. Vernon, G. H.
Guest, J. J. Vigors, N. A.
Halford, H. Wall, C. B.
Hawkins, J. H. White, Samuel
Heathcoat, John Wilde, Mr. Sergeant
Hume, J. Wilkins, W.
James, William Williams, W. A.
Jephson, C. D. O. Winnington, H. J.
Johnstone, Hope Wood, Alderman
Kemble, H. Wood, G. W.
Lister, E. C. Yates, J. A.
Lushington, Charles TELLERS.
Macleod, R. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Marshall, William Wood, C.
List of the NOES.
Acland, T. D. Heathcote, Sir W.
Burroughes, H. N. Hepburn, Sir T. B.
Cole, Visct. Hodgson, R.
Courtenay, p. Hughes, W. B.
Estcourt, T. Knight, H. G.
Freshfield, J. W. Lockhart, A. M.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes Mackenzie, W. F.
Glynne, Sir S. R. Marsland, T.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Grimsditch, T. Parker, M.
Harcourt, G. S. Parker, T. A. W.
Praed, W. M. Teignmouth, Lord
Round, C. G.
Round, J. TELLERS.
Shirley, E. J. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Sibthorp, Col. East, J. B.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 42 (by which incumbents are required to answer questions put by the bishop) was next read.

Sir R. Inglis

thought this clause inquisitorial. Who were to send those questions? The clause gave too much power to the advisers of the Crown, and he would object to it.

Mr. Goulburn

thought, that the whole power of putting those questions was left to the council. The bishop had nothing to do but to submit and put them. He also objected to the clause as it stood.

Sir R. Inglis

proposed to omit the words beginning in line nine, "together with such other questions as may from time to time be directed by her Majesty in Council."

Lord J. Russell

thought, that there was an unseasonable jealousy about the use of these words. The bill, as it was printed, had received the sanction of the Archbishop of Canterbury. It was an absurd suspicion to think, that any questions would be put which ought not to be put. The Crown had already a greater power by law than would be given by this clause. However, if the Committee thought, that the words should be left out, he should not object to their omission. The words ordered to be struck out.

On the question that the clause stand part of the Bill,

Mr. Hawes

objected, that the clause as it now stood did not contain any penalty on the clergyman for refusing to answer the questions put in the schedule. Those questions were put to enable the bishop to make certain returns which the bill directed him to make, and for the omission to make which he was liable to an indictment. If the clergyman could, with impunity, refuse to answer the questions put to him, the bishop could not discharge the duty which the bill imposed upon him. If a clergyman were refractory, and refused to answer all questions, what could the bishop do as the bill now stood?

Mr. Hume

would move, that in case of any clergyman refusing to answer the questions put to him by the schedule, he should be fined four per cent. on the value of his living.

The Solicitor-General

said, that the Committee, in coming at a result that might be considered expedient, ought not to establish a bad precedent and a dangerous principle. The great objection to the Court of Star-Chamber was, that it fined a man for refusing to answer any questions put to him, and that it also assumed the power of fining him for any admission against himself. Such a precedent as the hon. Member's Amendment would be a dangerous and unconstitutional precedent, for it was a principle of British law that no man was bound to answer a question which might tend to criminate himself.

Mr. Hume

Then what was the use of having a schedule of questions which were to be put to the clergy if they were not bound to answer? It was quite nonsense.

Sir H. Verney

thought there was no greater hardship on the clergy to answer questions put to them than there would be in putting questions to officers of the army or navy, which they were bound to answer when they related to their duties.

Lord Ebrington

thought, that if the Legislature had power to direct the questions, there should be the means of enforcing their answers.

The Committee divided on the Amendment, Ayes 33; Noes 110: Majority 77.

List of the AYES.
Baines, E. Russell, Lord C.
Berkeley, hon. C. Salwey, Colonel
Bulwer, E. L. Scholefield, J.
Busfield, W. Stanley, W. O.
Clay, W. Stansfield, W. R. C.
D'Eyncourt, rt. hn. C. Turner, W.
Duke, Sir J. Verney, Sir H.
Dundas, Capt. C. W. D. Vigors, N. A.
Ebrington, Viscount White, A.
Evans, Sir De L. White, S.
Evans, G. Wilbraham, G.
Hindley, C. Wilde, Sergeant
Kinnaird, hon. A. F. Williams, W.
Lister, E. C. Wood, G. W.
Marshall, W. Worsley, Lord
Marsland, H. TELLERS.
Protheroe, E. Hume, J.
Rundle, J. Hawes, B.
List of the NOES.
Abercromby, hn. G. R. Bailey, J.
Acland, T. D. Bailey, J. jun.
Adam, Admiral Baring, hon. W. B.
Ainsworth, P. Bewes, T.
Alsager, Captain Blair, J.
Blunt, Sir C. Lockhart, A. M.
Broadley, H. Mackenzie, W. F.
Brocklehurst, J. Macleod, R.
Brotherton, J. Marsland, H.
Bruges, W. H. L. Maunsell, T. P.
Burroughes, H. N. Monypenny, T. G.
Cavendish, hon. G. H. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Childers, J. W. Morpeth, Viscount
Codrington, C. W. Morris, D.
Cole, hon. A. H. Murray, rt. hn. J. A.
Cole, Viscount Nicholl, J.
Compton, H. G. Noel, W. M.
Courtenay, P. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Dalmeny, Lord Pakington, J. S.
Dundas, Captain D. Parker, J.
East, J. B. Parker, M.
Eastnor, Viscount Parker, T. A. W.
Eaton, R. J. Praed, W. M.
Egerton, W. T. Prime, G.
Egerton, Sir P. Pusey, P.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Rice, E. R.
Estcourt, T. Richards, R.
Evans, W. Rolleston, L.
Ferguson, rt. hn. C. Round, C. G.
Filmer, Sir E. Round, J.
Freshfield, J. W. Russell, Lord J.
Glynne, Sir S. R. Scarlett, hon. J. Y.
Gordon, R. Seymour, Lord
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Shaw, right hon. F.
Grey, Sir G. Sheppard, T.
Grimsditch, T. Shirley, J.
Guest, J. J. Sibthorpe, Colonel
Halford, H. Stanley, E. J.
Harcourt, G. S. Steuart, R.
Hawkes, T. Sturt, H. C.
Hawkins, J. H. Talbot, J. H.
Hepburn, Sir T. B. Thomson, rt. hn. C. P.
Hobhouse, right hon. Sir J. Townley, R. G.
Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Hodgson, R. Verner, Colonel
Hope, G. W. Vernon, G. H.
Hoskins, K. Villiers, Viscount
Hughes, W. B. Vivian, rt. hn. Sir H.
Hurt, F. Wallace, R.
Inglis, Sir R. H. White, L.
Johnstone, H. Wilkins, W. A.
Jones, J. Williams, W. A.
Kemble, H. Winnington, H. J.
Knight, H. G. Wood, T.
Knightley, Sir C. TELLERS.
Labouchere, rt. hn. H. Solicitor-General
Lefevre, C. S. Wood, C.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses to the 46th agreed to.