PRISONS. (Hansard, 23 July 1838)

§ Sir R. Inglis
opposed the clause of the hon. Member for Knaresborough. A proposition involving the same principle stood on the paper under the name of his hon. Friend and colleague (Mr. Estcourt), but he should oppose both, on the same ground. However obligatory it might be on the conscience of individuals to provide spiritual instruction for the destitute persons of their own Church, the nation was 493 no longer at liberty to exercise any discretion on that point. The State having established one particular Church as the authorized depository of its faith, it should not give its sanction by any specific payment to any clergyman of another Church.

§ Mr. Langdale
supported the clause, the operation of which, he said, would not extend to more than a few prisons in the metropolis and Lancashire, where there were a great number of inmates dissenting from the religion of the Established Church. He put it to the House whether they would, by rejecting the clause, deprive those ignorant and demoralized men of the only religious instruction of which they could avail themselves—that furnished by the clergymen of their own communion.

§ Mr. Estcourt
would oppose the clause, whether the amendment he had placed on the paper were rejected or not. He was not unwilling to afford proper religious instruction to the Dissenting prisoners, for which he conceived his amendment would make full provision, but he would not go the length of adopting the hon. Member's proposition.

§ Mr. W. E. Gladstone
must oppose both the clause and the amendment of which his hon. Friend near him (Mr. Estcourt) had given notice. He objected to any infringement whatever of the principle on which the Established Church was founded—that of confining the pecuniary support of the state to one particular religious denomination. At present Roman Catholic priests, as well as other Dissenting clergymen, were allowed to have access to the prisoners of their own communion. As to what might be said of the destitution of the prisoners, he apprehended that the House would not recognize the sufficiency of that plea, if set up by any class of poor persons out of doors dissenting from the Established Church in favour of a provision for their religious instruction.

§ Lord J. Russell
did not think with the hon. Member who spoke last, that the case of prisoners was not distinguished from that of poor persons out of doors. In his opinion, prisoners stood peculiarly in need of religious instruction, as they were men either condemned for or suspected of crimes against the peace and good order of society, and there was a positive obligation on the Legislature to convey to them as much instruction as might serve to 494 eradicate their vices. If a clergyman of the Church of England was sent to Roman Catholics, they would not consider him authorized to give religious instruction, and his lessons would have little or no effect. For these reasons he felt disposed to give his assent to the proposition.

§ Mr. Gibson
thought the case of prisoners might be legitimately exempted from the operation of the rules which governed the Legislature in reference to other classes. If the religious instruction of the Dissenting prisoners were left to voluntary efforts, they would be neglected. In other cases of peculiar exigency, as in the grants to Protestant Non-conformists and others in Ireland, Parliament had relaxed the strictness of those maxims to which it ordinarily adhered. The system which the clause would permit in this country had been already tried in Ireland, and found to produce much good. He therefore would vote for the clause.

§ Mr. Hawes
thought it very desirable that the House should come to some satisfactory arrangement of this question, now that they had the opportunity. He hoped the House would adopt the clause.

Lord Stanley
concurred in what had fallen from the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Gibson), though certainly not to the extent that no moral or religious instruction should be communicated to persons confined in prisons but by men of the same persuasion as themselves; but he fully concurred, and he thought the House could not but concur, in the remark, that if they desired to reform the morals of prisoners by means of the communication of religious truth, an infinitely greater degree of success might be expected from the effect upon those prisoners of the ministrations of persons of their own creed. He would not support this clause if he thought it possible that the principle applied by it to the case of prisoners in gaols could be extended to the community at large. He thought, however, it was important that the magistrates should have the power of selection, and power of dismissal; for he did not approve of the manner in which the clause of the hon. Gentleman fettered the discretion of the magistrates. But, upon the whole, if the House went to a division, believing as he did it to be an imperative duty to provide the prisoners in gaols with moral and 495 religious instruction, he should support the clause.

List of the Ayes.
Alston, R.	Hope, hon. C.
Archbold, R.	Howard, F. J.
Baines, E.	Howick, Lord
Bannerman, A.	Hume, J.
Barnard, E. G.	Hutton, R.
Barrington, Viscount	James, W.
Bernal, R.	Labouchere, H.
Blackburne, J.	Lascelles, W. S.
Bowes, J.	Lemon, Sir C.
Bramston, T. W.	Lowther, J. H.
Bridgeman, H.	Lucas, E.
Briscoe, J. I.	Lushington, C.
Brotherton, J.	Macleod, R.
Browne, R. D.	M'Maggart, J.
Brownrigg, S.	Maher, J.
Bryan, G.	Mahon, Lord
Buller, E.	Marshall, W.
Campbell, Sir J.	Martin, J.
Chalmers, P.	Martin, T. B.
Chetwynd, Major	Maule, hon. F.
Childers, J. W.	Melgund, Lord
Clay, W.	Mildmay, P. St. J.
Clements, Lord	Morpeth, Lord
Coote, Sir C. H.	Murray, J. A.
Cowper, hon. W. F.	O'Brien, W. S.
Craig, W. G.	O'Connell, D.
Crawley, S.	O'Connell, M. J.
Curry, W.	O'Connell, M.
Darlington, Lord	O'Ferrall, R. M.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Parker, J.
Duckworth, S.	Parker, M.
Dunbar, G.	Parker, R. T.
Duncan, Lord	Pechell, Capt.
Dundas, F.	Peel, Sir R.
Eastnor, Lord	Phillips, M.
Elliot, hon. J. E.	Pigot, R.
Ellice, Capt. A.	Ponsonby, hon. J.
Estcourt, T.	Power, J.
Evans, G.	Praed, W. M.
Ferguson, R.	Praed, W. T.
Finch, F.	Pusey, P.
Follett, Sir W.	Redington, T. N.
Goulburn, H.	Richards, R.
Grant, F. W.	Roche, E. B.
Grey, Sir G.	Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Grimston, Lord	Russell, Lord J.
Grimston, hon. E.	Sandon, Lord
Grosvenor, Lord R.	Seymour, Lord
Harvey, D. W.	Smith, J. A.
Hastie, A.	Smith, R. V.
Hawes, B.	Somerset, Lord G.
Hawkins, J. H.	Somerville, Sir W. M.
Hayter, W. G.	Stanley, E. J.
Herbert, hon. S.	Stanley, Lord
Hill, Lord A. M. C.	Steuart, R.
Hillsborough, Earl of	Strutt, E.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Sturt, H. C.
Hodgson, F.	Style, Sir C.
Hogg, J. W.	Surrey, Earl of
Holmes, W.	Teignmouth, Lord

Tennent, J. E.	Wilmot, Sir J. E.
Thornely, T.	Wood, C.
Troubridge, Sir E.	Wood, G. W.
Turner, E.	Yates, J. A.
Villiers, C. P.	TELLERS.
Wall, C. B.	Langdale, C.
Warburton, H.	Gibson, J.
List of the NOES.
Alsager, Captain.	Lockhart, A. M.
Ashley, Lord	Lygon, hon. General
Baker, E.	Mackenzie, T.
Blackstone, W.	Pakington, G.
Blair, J.	Palmer, G.
Broadley, H.	Perceval, Col.
Burrell, Sir C.	Rose, Sir G.
Chandos, Marquess of	Round, J.
Chute W. L. W.	Sanford, E. A.
Darby, G.	Sinclair, Sir G.
Ellis, J.	Trench, Sir F.
Farnham, E. B.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Gladstone, W. E.	Verner, Colonel
Hodgson, R.	Wood, T.
Kinnaird, hon. A. F.	TELLERS.
Knightley, Sir C.	Estcourt, T.
Lefroy, rt. hon. T.	Inglis, Sir R.