FACTORIES.—COUNTING OUT THE HOUSE. (Hansard, 13 July 1838)

§ Lord Ashley
would ask where the noble Lord, (Lord John Russel,) was yesterday, when the Government, of which he was a member, was instrumental in counting out the House? Why had the House been so counted out, within a very few minutes of the period fixed for its reassembling, and when the legitimate number of members would have been forthwith in attendance. By this means, he was again deprived of the opportunity of exposing the most abominable system which had ever disgraced and degraded a civilized nation. The noble Lord opposite and the House knew full well the mode in which this question had been treated. They knew full well how to repeat a phrase which he had used before, and from which he did not shrink; how he had been mocked and deluded. On the 22nd of June last, he had hoped to have an opportunity of making his statement; but the noble Lord had triumphed by the small majority of eight. He had then given a notice three weeks from that period, and had fixed upon a notice-day. Yesterday was the day. The House met by adjournment at 6 o'clock, and no sooner did it meet, than it was proposed that it should be counted, and was counted out. Immediately upon that motion being made, one of the Lords of the Treasury, the hon. Member for Haddington, ran out of the House, and other Members of the Government went into a different lobby. There were other hon. Members present who would bear witness to this statement. He had himself seen the hon. Member for Haddington leave the House, and with him the person who should have last thought of taking such a course. He alluded to the hon. Member for Durham, himself a very large mill-owner, and one of those whom he would have put on his defence. The House was thus counted out before those hon. Members who were listening to the debate in the Lords could have an opportunity of attending. Even as it was, the attendance of members amounted to thirty-seven. He was extremely sorry at being obliged to adopt any extraordinary course to bring on his motion. He should have liked very much to bring it on in a more legitimate way. The noble Lord opposite and the House might think the person who had the honor to introduce this subject to their notice to be himself a very despicable person. But, 188 notwithstanding the treatment he had received from the hands of the Government, the House would allow him to say, that the question was one of paramount importance and magnitude, and that if the attention of the Government were not shortly directed to it, the office of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department, however burdensome it might be now, would speedily become a million times more burdensome. He did not ask the House to affirm any new principle. He was simply desirous to lay before the House what he considered an unparalleled state of things, and he wanted the House to say whether they would enforce or repeal the existing law. He held it to be inconsistent both with the character of the House, and with the safety of the empire at large, to leave a law affecting the welfare of 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 human beings in such a state, that no one of its provisions was observed, that it was deliberately and impudently violated every day, and that it was left not only for five years, but was most likely to be left for another year, without a possibility of redress, while they positively refused to hear any statement upon the part of the persons aggrieved. It might be inconsistent in him to move, that the order for going into Committee of supply be taken before any of the other orders of the day, because in doing so he should be moving the supply for the purpose of its being rejected; but he had given notice, that if the order of supply were brought forward, he would move his amendment; and if the order of supply were moved at so late a period that he would not have time to bring forward his amendment, he would then move, that the Committee of supply be adjourned to Monday. He appealed to the House for its support in this matter; and, please God, he was fully determined that this statement should be laid before the Commons of England, when he trusted to obtain a full and fitting answer, and to have something done at last on the subject of this great and crying evil.

§ Mr. R. Steuart
said, that whatever blame he had incurred in this matter, he alone was responsible for it, and that he had not seen the hon. Member for Durham at all upon the occasion referred to. He begged, distinctly, to deny, that he had any previous communication with any single member of the Government upon the subject; and the Under Secretary of 189 State had expressed to him immediately afterwards his deep regret that the House should have been counted out.

§ Lord J. Russell
could state nothing about what occurred in the House yesterday, not having been present at the time. He returned to the House a few moments afterwards, with the view of attending the motion of the noble Lord. Nothing would induce him to say, that the noble Lord, in bringing forward his motion, was actuated by any desire to embarrass the Government, or interfere with the other proceedings of the House. On the contrary, he knew the deep interest which the noble Lord took in the factory question, and that in the prosecution of it, he had acted in the most honourable manner. He did think, however, that the noble Lord, in his great anxiety about the question, was apt to overlook the real facts of the case. He had stated to the House, that, one way or another, he was prevented by the Government from making a statement of facts connected with the factory question. Now, the noble Lord must admit, that if he were wrong in postponing the question, he himself was also wrong in not bringing it fully forward when he moved it before the Order of the Day upon Irish Tithes. On the day when the bill stood among the orders of the day, the noble Lord proposed to take it before the Irish Tithe Bill. Surely he had then an opportunity of stating to the House any facts which he thought proper, and no one would have prevented him from doing so. He might also have convinced the House, that his bill ought to have precedence of the Irish Tithe Bill. The House, however, upon the reasons which he adduced, decided against him by a majority of eight, and he now complained of the conduct of that majority. With respect to the interest which the Government, it was said, took in the matter, he must say, that the noble Lord was entirely wrong in supposing, that there was any particular wish or intention on the part of the Government to evade or put off the factory question. If he had understood from the noble Lord before he proposed putting the bill off, that the noble Lord had any particular wish so to do, he (Lord J. Russell) would have considered whether it might not be taken before some other Order of the Day. Neither then, however, nor in the question which the noble Lord put, did he appear to manifest any great anxiety upon the 190 subject. Knowing, then, as he did, the opposition which was growing up against the bill, and the great anxiety there was upon the part of the House to have a bill proposed when there should be time for deliberation, he thought it best the bill should be postponed. The noble Lord had it in his power when the question of supply was moved, to make any statement he pleased on the factory question. He, (Lord J. Russell) had heard from Members upon both sides of the House, considerable apprehensions as to the consequences of raising any excitement at the present moment about the question. The noble Lord took a different view of the matter. All that he wished to say was, that when the noble Lord proposed to bring on his bill before the Irish Tithe Bill, he had an opportunity of making his statement, if he pleased. The noble Lord could not expect that the law would not be violated, but it was satisfactory to know, that by the last reports of the inspectors, the law appeared to be more generally observed.

Mr. Wallace
could confirm the statement that his hon. Friend, the Member for Falkirk, consulted no one when he moved that the House be counted out.

§ Mr. Labouchere
could also add his testimony, that there was not the slightest concert upon the part of the Government to put off the noble Lord's motion. He did not think the noble Lord would require him to produce any witnesses, but if he were to appeal to any one, it would perhaps, be to the Speaker, whom he met shortly after the House was over, when his right hon. Friend expressed his regret, in which he concurred, at there being no House, as it would so much retard the progress of public business. The occurrence, in his belief, was only to be attributed to the natural, and perhaps, not inexcusable indisposition of hon. Members to sit for eight or nine hours in the evening after having sat, for four in the day.

§ Lord Ashley
considered himself bound strictly to show to the House, reasons why one order should be taken before another. He had endeavoured to do so as well as he was able, but at the same time he had too much regard for the time and feelings of the House to obtrude upon them, and weary them with a variety of minute statements out of place and at an improper time. If he had, upon that occasion, gone into the whole subject fully, the 191 noble Lord would have been the first to call him to order. The noble Lord had stated, that he did not appear to manifest any anxiety upon the subject of the Factory Bill. Now, he would appeal to the House, whether he had not asked the noble Lord questions upon the subject usque ad nauseam? He would also appeal to the Under-Secretary of State, whether he did not apply to him not to deceive him upon the subject, but really and fairly to give him an opportunity of discussing the question. The noble Lord was proceeding to animadvert upon the conduct of Government, when he was interrupted by cries of "Order."

§ The Speaker
said, the noble Lord's remark was not necessary for the purpose of explanation.