TITHES (IRELAND). (Hansard, 1 May 1837)

§ Viscount Morpeth

rose, and spoke as follows:—When I remind this Committee that I now rise for the third time to move for leave to bring in the fifth Bill which, 409 within the short period of three years, has been submitted to Parliament for the settlement of Irish tithes, it will be obvious to the Committee, both with respect to myself and to my subject, that there is so little of novelty with which I could hope to adorn it, and that all its chief branches must have been so thoroughly laid bare to the consideration of the House, that the more short, simple, and matter-of-fact the statement is which I am now called upon to make, the better I shall discharge my duty, and suit the convenience of the Committee; and still more especially do I feel that, beset as the whole question is with much disturbing and inflammatory matter, and exposed as it is to the shock of fiercely controverted principles—not declining my-self at every proper season and opportunity to state most broadly my own views of those principles, and to abide by their issue; yet I sincerely wish to guard myself against unnecessarily or prematurely bringing opposite opinions into conflict, or entangling what I hope to be a clear and dispassionate statement of the details of the measure which I have to submit to the House with any differences, or embroiling it with any of the heats of party. With respect to that part of the question which relates to the immediate arrangements that are necessary to be adopted, with a view to any settlement of the tithe question in Ireland, very little substantial difference of opinion has subsisted of late among the principal parties in the State who have addressed themselves to it. We propose to follow the precedent of all the five previous Bills which have been introduced upon this subject, in converting the present composition for tithes into a rent-charge upon the owner of the first estate of inheritance, or upon what is reckoned a fair equivalent for the first estate of inheritance. We take the same amount of deduction as proposed in the two previous Bills submitted to the House of Commons by his Majesty's present Government—a deduction of thirty per cent.; that is, reducing the rent-charge down to 70l. for every 100l. tithe composition. Objections have been urged against our previous proposal of vesting the power of levying the future rent-charge in the hands of the Commissioners of his Majesty's land revenues, as tending to give the ministers of the Established Church a too dependent character. Without stopping to inquire into the justice or force of those objections, we do; not propose to take the levy of the 410 rent-charge out of the hands of the parties to whom it is legally payable, but intend giving them the same powers of recovery as are given to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests for the recovery of such rent-charge as belongs exclusively to the Crown; in fact, the same powers as are given by the Tithe Composition Act of 1832, against all liable or undertaking landlords. We preserve the same rules and regulations for the possible revision, in certain cases, of the present tithe compositions, as we introduced into the Bill brought forward last year. For, although we are aware that plausible distinctions are drawn between compositions of one date, and those of another, and between compositions entered into under one form of composition and those under another, yet we think we shall do most complete and substantial justice by extending the same power to all cases alike—in all alike proper and sufficient precautions being taken against that power being idly, or viciously, or capriciously, or needlessly resorted to. It will, probably, be remembered by the Committee, that, in the bill which I had the honour to bring forward last Session, provisions, the particulars of which I need not here recapitulate, were included for an altered distribution of the incomes of clerical benefices, tending, I conceive, to a more equitable and advantageous apportionment of ecclesiastical duties and revenues. However, the scale which I proposed encountered some objections; and I may in courtesy say, a contending scheme was proposed by the noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire (Lord Stanley), which was adopted by the other House of Parliament, and inserted in the Bill which they returned to us. At the same time that the noble Lord proposed his amendments for the distribution of the future income of the clergy, it was intimated by him, that the clauses which he suggested were not unacceptable to, and would not be disapproved of by, the heads of the Church, or by the clerical body at large, as might also be collected from what passed elsewhere. However, the shape which the Bill, independent of those specific alterations, wore when it was returned to this House, at the close of the last Session, made his Majesty's Government conceive, looking at the then and still subsisting state of the tithe question in Ireland—and the House may be assured that they could not fail to arrive at that conclusion but with very great regret 411 —that their duty would not allow them to consent to its enactment as a law. Still, looking to those amendments, thus proposed, by the noble Lord and adopted by the other House of Parliament, independently, with a view to unaltered distribution of Church property, I confess that I am inclined to think that they are susceptible of further modification and extension, and that if they had been adopted as they stood there would have been left many gross cases of disproportion and of abuses, which they would not have reached, or, which, at least, they would very inadequately have touched. Still considering the auspices under which they were proposed, and the authority by which they were supported, wishing, wherever we are able, and where the views of all the principal parties—while contending, perhaps, on most other points—manifestly point to one common object, and are aiming to more along that combined track in peace and amity together, his Majesty's Government have thought it expedient and advantageous to adopt those clauses, almost without variation, in the shape in which we find them. I believe entirely without variation, except as regards one provision which we formerly thought, and still think, militates against the spirit of the very propositions which it accompanies: I mean that which prohibits the Ecclesiastical Commissioners from reducing any benefice, let the circumstance of that benefice be what it may, to any annual amount of income below 300l. Under the Church Temporalities Bill one of the chief objects which it was intended to defray out of the revenues which would have accrued under the operation of that act was the increase of small livings, which item was estimated by Earl Grey, in the clear and comprehensive statement which he made in introducing that measure to the other House of Parliament, at 46,500l. per annum. One of the items to meet the expenditure contemplated and provided for under the same act was a tax upon all clerical incomes, whether in the hands of the archbishops, bishops, dignitaries, or other orders of the clergy. Now, without wishing to advert to the question of an eventual surplus, which, according to the calculations of the authors of that measure, as well as of the eminent accountants to whom the details have subsequently been referred, must eventually—I admit at a very distant day—but must eventually arise under the operation of that Bill, as 412 it then stood, or as it has since been amended; without, I say, adverting to that question of eventual surplus, the Committee will perceive that the item of expenditure in the outgoing account of the Church Temporalities funds, namely, the increase of the smaller livings, will be met by the provisions carried in the Bill of last year in the House of Lords, by which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners are empowered to make deductions from any livings of which the annual income exceeds 500l.. or in which the number of the members of the Established Church falls short of 100; and to augment any benefice of which the annual value is below 300l., or which comprises a city or town within its precincts. The provision which will be thus made by these clauses of the noble Lord and of the House of Peers will, indeed be far more than commensurate with what would be derived from the tax upon clerical incomes, which from the modifications it has undergone, and the deductions that have since been made from it, would only amount to a very inconsiderable sum. This tax, then, we propose to repeal, because it does not seem necessary to us to keep up a tax insufficient for the purpose to which it is to be applied, and which purpose, moreover, is amply provided for by other means. I have mentioned that we have adopted, almost precisely in the shape in which they were originally proposed, the suggestions of the noble Lord, or the amendments of the House of Lords, call them which you will, in the Bill of last year, But, as in the very process and act of carrying those provisions into effect it is probable, indeed almost inevitable, that further suggestions and proposals, for the express purpose of giving consistency and efficacy to our whole Ecclesiastical system, will occur to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, who under these same clauses are charged with the superintendence of the requisite operations, power will be given to them to report to his Majesty any further supernumerary and subsidiary suggestions and amendments which may occur to them as desirable, or calculated the better to effect the object sought to be attained, and which then, if to his Majesty's advisers it should so seem fit, may be brought under the consideration of Parliament. There is an ancient statute of the reign of King Henry 8th., which has been already cited in this House, but which I do not think has met with all the consideration to 413 which it is fairly entitled. It is the 15th chapter of the 28th of Henry 8th.,and it enacts, "that every incumbent of each parish in Ireland should keep or cause to be kept within the place, territory, or parish where he should have pre-eminence, rule, benefice, or promotion, a school for to learn English, and that every archbishop bishop, suffragan, archdeacon, commissary, and others having power and authority to induct any person to any dignity, benefice, office, or promotion spiritual, should at the time of the induction of such person and persons to any dignity, &c, give unto the said person and persons so inducted a corporal oath, that he and they so being admitted, instituted, installed, collated, or inducted, shall to his wit and cunning endeavour himself to learne, instruct, and teach the English tongue, to all and everie being under this rule, cure, order, or governance." Penalties are laid both on the bishop and clergyman for a breach of this statute. For the two first offences the holder of the benefice is fined at different amounts; for the third he is to be deprived of his benefice. Now, it may be remarked, that this Act was passed subsequent to the acknowledgment of the King's supremacy in Ireland. In fact, the King's supremacy was established by an act of that very year. But it is clear that Ireland was then in the eye of the law, as it was in fact, still considered, essentially a Catholic country, because by the 9th section of this very statute the priest is enjoined to read his beads in English. This act was met with some opposition by some of the members of the Church of that day; but the State did not desist in carrying the measure into a law. This care for the general and universal education of the people which was thus exhibited in this ancient statute was further reinforced by 12 Elizabeth, c. 1, which, after reciting in the preamble, that "the ignorance of the people proceedeth only of lack of good bringing up of the youth of this realm in public or private schools," proceeds to enact, that "there shall be from henceforth a free school within every diocese of this realm of Ireland." Whence the diocesan schools in Ireland at the present day, into the efficiency of which an inquiry is now going on by a Committee of this House, under the auspices of my hon. Friend, the Member for the city of Water-ford. However, what I wish chiefly to call the attention of the Committee to, are 414 the results of the provisions contained in the statute of Henry 8th, for the establishment of parochial schools in every parish and diocese throughout Ireland, and to which, I apprehend, the diocesan schools established in the reign of Queen Elizabeth were only to be subsidiary—to be, in fact, for the higher classes of scholars, though both the statutes contemplated equally the spread of popular education. It must have been collected from the extract which I have read from the statute of King Henry 8th, and from the oath which is imposed upon all incumbents to comply with the provisions of that statute; and which oath is accordingly, up to this day, taken by all rectors and vicars on being inducted into their livings, in these words:—"I will teach, or cause to be taught, an English school, within the said rectory or vicarage, as the law in that case requires;" it mu6t, I say, have been collected by the Committee that, by force of these unrepealed statutes, and of this subsisting oath, the obligation of the clergy to keep up these schools in the fullest force. This must be obvious to all. The question, therefore, is, is this obligation fully or efficiently complied with? As to its being fully complied with, I find in the first Report of the Commissioners of Irish Education Inquiry, dated 30th May, 1825, it is stated, that in several benefices in Ireland, which amount to 1,242 (which, I think, is rather understating the fact), there are 782 schools, to which the respective clergymen annually contribute pecuniary aid, amounting altogether to 3,299l. 19s. 4d. Now, if the statute is construed to extend to every parish in Ireland, then, as there are above 2,400 parishes in Ireland, the case of the disproportion of schools is more strongly apparent. In fact, the proportionate number of schools kept up is but little more than one-fourth the number of Irish parishes. In the second Report of the Commissioners of Public Instruction in 1825, and which I quote, because it is the most recent information we have received upon the subject, it is stated, that "It appears there are many benefices in which there is no evidence of the existence of such parochial school as was provided under the Acts 28th Henry 8th, and 7th William 3rd," the latter having been introduced to enforce the former statute. As to these schools being kept up, I find in the eleventh Report from the Commissioners of the Board of Education in Ireland, dated November 2, 1810, "Though the 415 Act of Henry 8th, as is already stated, ordains that every incumbent in the kingdom shall keep, or cause to be kept, an English school in his parish, yet there is no regulation made therein of the stipend to be paid by the clergyman to the person whom he shall cause to keep the school for him; but we find that a custom has universally prevailed (though we cannot trace the period of its commencement) for the incumbents of the parishes in which parish schools are kept, to allow the schoolmaster 40s. per annum as his salary, and whenever this small stipend (utterly inadequate at present) is paid by the clergyman to a schoolmaster, the school is considered as a parish school." It appears, then, that it was enjoined by ancient statutes, that there should be kept up in every parish in Ireland a school; and, notwithstanding every clergyman, on his induction to a living, takes an oath, that he will keep up and maintain such school, the obligation is not complied with. But have there been no expressions of a more recent date of the wishes or opinion of the Legislature or the Government relative to the enforcing or maintaining the provisions of these ancient statutes, and to enforce, in its proper scope, the objects of this act? I will refer to what took place when the Duke of Rutland was at the head of the government of Ireland, and I find that, on the 12th of April, 1787, Mr. Secretary Ord then said in the Irish House of Commons, in reference to this subject, "Though every minister of a parish is bound by oath to comply with the 28th of Henry 8th, the only thing done towards carrying it into effect is a commutation of 40s. per annum, paid by the minister of each parish. This sum he proposed to take as the lowest rate of contributions from all livings not exceeding 150l., from thence to 200l. per annum the contributions should be 3l.; two and a half per cent, after 200l." He then moved these resolutions:—"That it is expedient to revise the Act of the 28th of Henry 8th, for the establishment of parish schools, and to make provision for ascertaining a new scheme and rate of contribution towards their more effectual support and improvement;" and—" That it is expedient to establish, by the aid and authority of Parliament, an annual fund for providing school-houses in every parish and union within this kingdom in which they may be requisite, for the residence of a schoolmaster, and the free instruction of the poor." It appears that this plan, like too 416 many others that have been proposed, has, like too many others, been abandoned, without any part of it being carried into effect, for a change of Government took place immediately afterwards, and events of too engrossing a nature supervened, and thus prevented its being acted upon, for, within a few years, the magic events of the Rebellion, and subsequently the important question of the Union, occupied the time and attention of the Legislature, so that but little attention was paid to other matters. Again, after the Union in 1806, the Duke of Bedford, the respected father of my noble Friend, who, I hope, is destined to work out this good work, which was commenced by kindred hands, took up the subject. In that year he issued a Commission of Inquiry into the whole subject of education in Ireland. The Commission was directed to certain of the archbishops and bishops of the Established Church, and to various others, both clergymen and laymen. From this body, which was styled the Board of Education in Ireland, there had emanated fourteen reports, and these were chiefly presented during the Government of the Duke of Richmond, and were signed by the Archbishops of Armagh and Cashel, the Bishop of Killala, Mr. Corry, Provost Elrington, Mr. Edgeworth, Mr. Whitlaw, and Mr. Leslie Foster. I mention the names of these Gentlemen lest it might be suspected that there was something of a rebellious or heretical tendency in the Commissioners, who reported the extract I am about to read. In the 14th report of the Commissioners of the Board of Education in Ireland, dated October 30, 1812, and presented to the Duke of Richmond, there is this passage:—"It would be highly expedient that the contributions of the clergy, (for the support of the parish schools,) should be paid with more regularity, and to a greater extent than ha been heretofore usual. It might not be deemed unreasonable that they should be rated at a sum not exceeding two per cent, of their respective incomes, to be ascertained by the Bishops, in such manner as may seem to them most expedient." If I am told, as I have been told in this House on former occasions, that the ground I have now taken, and the illustrations which I have adduced, cannot be put forward on the plea of novelty, I will say, that I consider that this is an argument in favour of what I am urging, and I wish to make use of no argument which may not be sup- 417 ported by equal authority. But I may be told that the purpose contemplated by the statute of Henry 8th was only merely the putting a stop to the use of the Irish language, and it was intended to substitute the English in place of it, and that it was only a superintendence on the part of the clergy, and not the contribution of funds for the maintenance of these schools, that the Legislature meant. With respect to this last objection, as to the contributions from the clergy, it has been amply confuted by the documents and extracts which I have already read to the House; and I shall have to refer to still further evidence on this point before I sit down. With respect to what was comprehended in the system which was recommended to be adopted, and which was supposed to be in conformity with the directions and stipulations of the Act of Henry 8th, I find that Mr. Secretary Ord, in the speech to which I have before referred, spoke as follows:—" The object of my resolutions is to extend the means of education universally throughout the country at so cheap a rate, that few persons should be excluded from its advantages." In the 11th Report of the Board of Education to which I have also adverted, I find it stated, "The parish schools are open to persons of all religious persuasions." Again, I find that one of my living predecessors in the office which I have the honour to hold, took almost the same view of the subject. Mr. Wellesley Pole, in 1813, said, "The law directs that the parish school, (established in the reign of Henry 8th,) should be kept by, or at the expense of, the clergyman of the parish. From that circumstance it appears at one period to have been inferred that the children brought up in the parish schools were to be educated exclusively in the Protestant religion. But that opinion is exploded; and, in point of fact, children of every religious persuasion were eligible to be educated in these parish schools." With these authorities thus fortified and armed, and sanctioned by the concurrent support of successive Lords-lieutenant and Secretaries for Ireland—by various Parliaments and Governments, and by both royal and Parliamentary Commissioners, amongst whose names are to be found those who stand prominent for the most palmy orthodoxy—I proceed to another part of the subject. What is the course which I invite the House of Commons to pursue in the present seemingly inextricable state of the tithe question in Ireland? I invite 418 the House, in the first place, to repeal the provisions of the statute of Henry 8th, which direct the performance of certain duties; but the provisions of this Act are inadequate for the purpose. I also invite the House to relieve the clergy of the Established Church from the obligation of taking an oath, which reason shows to be of no value, and which, as I believe, cannot be discharged by them. There are those who are partial to a charitable construction of matters, who might enlarge on the impropriety of exposing any persons to the guilt of perjury. There are also those who are not fond of a charitable construction, who might vary the expression, and might say, that the clergy were unwilling to fulfil those obligations imposed on them. I most sincerely declare, that I do not entertain any such dishonourable feeling towards the Protestant clergy of Ireland. I believe that the circumstances of the times render the provisions of this act, to comply with which you call upon every clergyman to take an oath, wholly inapplicable and impracticable. No doubt there are some clergymen who think they have satisfied the object contemplated by the act, by subscribing money for the promotion of popular education, either to those societies fostered by the State, or supported entirely by voluntary donations, and which abound to such an extent in Ireland. It might also be thought by some that the conduct pursued by the Government as regards the plan of national education in Ireland, supersedes the obligation to observe the enactments which the statute of Henry 8th was supposed to impose. On the other hand, it might also be said, that at present the clergy were in that unhappy situation that they were unable to comply with the obligations of the act, or to perform those other duties of a charitable nature which they conceived were imposed on them. I think that it is desirable that the clergy should be relieved from the obligation of taking this oath, for I am satisfied that the altered circumstances of the times have rendered the taking of such an oath, on the induction of a clergyman, totally unnecessary. It is stated in the Report of the Commissioners of the Board of Education— With respect to the oath before mentioned, taken by the clergy at institution, to keep, or cause to be kept, an English school, according to the provisions of the Act of Henry 8th, we have to observe, that, from the great change that has taken place in the circumstances 419 which gave occasion to its enactment, and for which it was intended to provide, a literal observance of it seems not only to be no longer necessary, but even impossible; and that, from the little advantage to be expected, were the clergy to comply only literally with its legal injunction, and from the difficulties which stand in the way of a general compliance with it in any sense, it may deserve consideration whether it should be continued to be administered, or whether, in consequence of that total change in the situation of the lower classes, (whom these schools were designed to civilize, and to teach to speak, rather than to read, English,) the clergy ought not to be relieved from the obligation thus imposed on them by a repeal of that part of the statute which imposes it. Again, in the 1st Report of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland, it is stated, "A responsibility is imposed upon the clergy, which is the more inconvenient, as its limits and nature are but imperfectly defined, though it certainly exposes them to the liability of being deprived of their benefices, and convicted a third time of not complying with the provisions of the Act." I will also quote the opinion of Mr. Wellesley Pole once more with respect to this subject. He said, "Every clergyman took an oath to cause to be kept, or to keep, a parish school. He was sorry to say, that this law was Very imperfectly recognised. He had declared, in 1811, that the clergy should furnish a part of the funds that would be necessary. He was glad to find, that the principle on which he was prepared to act, was in some degree recognised by the Board of Education." Again, he said, "He had no hesitation in saying, he would look to the oath of the Protestant clergymen, and see whether they ought not, to a certain extent, bear the expense of the establishment—of education in Ireland." Having thus relieved the clergy from the obligation of taking this oath, which it was irksome to take, as it was difficult to fulfil, I propose to proceed on the resolutions which were proposed in the Irish House of Commons by Mr. Secretary Ord—namely, that it is expedient to revise the Act of the 28th of Henry 8th, for the establishment of parish schools, and to make provision for maintaining a new scheme and rate of contribution towards their more effectual support and improvement. We propose to raise a fixed rate from the ecclesiastical revenues of Ireland, which is to be general, and to be taken from the incomes of the archbishops, bishops, and other dignitaries of 420 the Church, as well as from the rest of the clergy. We propose to fix the rate, not on the present holders, but that their successors shall have to pay a fixed rate of ten per cent. We take a fixed rate in preference to a graduated scale of contribution, because it is not intended that this tax shall be levied until the Ecclesiastical Commissioners have redistributed the property of the Church, when they would, of course, take into calculation the operation of this tax. Thus the annual charge directed to be paid by the clergy, by the statute of Henry 8th, will be levied, revised, and augmented; and I must say, that we shall not confine it to the object of old, as stated in the act of Henry 8th, for we propose to apply it not merely to the exclusive purpose of teaching the English language to those whom this act calls the wild and savage folk of Ireland, but that a literary education shall be combined with those lessons of morality and religion which it is our duty to inculcate to all. I feel, that under the provisions of this Statute, and supported by the authority of such recommendations as I have stated, for the attainment of this great national object, that the interests of the Church, so far from being injured, will be forwarded by joining its share in promoting the general education of the people. We wish to leave to the future consideration of Parliament, when the proper opportunity will arrive, to determine in what manner this system of general education shall be conducted in Ireland; but, I believe that it is admitted on all hands, and by all authorities, that a national system of education of a people should embrace all classes and denominations of religions. I will not trouble the House by going to oilier authorities, but, I must add, that I for one shall most sincerely rejoice if the Committees of both Houses of Parliament, and sitting on the subject of education for Ireland, shall be able to devise any scheme by which the jealousies and bitternesses which prevail on this most important question can be removed, and that all classes of Christians can be united in one common plan for the attainment of one of the most important objects that can occupy the attention of a Legislature in the exertions of humanity. It is necessary, that resolutions, having for their object the imposition of a tax, should emanate in a Committee of the House; but I do not think that it would be altogether fair or reasonable to propose 421 them without further notice. I, therefore, only mean, on this occasion, to propose a resolution similar to that which I proposed last year, and which I do not think involves anything likely to lead to discussion, and which will not be agreed to by the other side of the House. We propose to secure to the present owners of tithes, the equitable possession of their property, by transferring the payment of tithes from the humbler to the higher classes in the social scale, and in thus transferring the liability, we increase the security. By authorising a new distribution, on an improved ecclesiastical arrangement, we do not exclude the benefit of further improvement which will be effected after ample inquiry; and after the cession of existing interests we propose to call upon the Church to unite with the State in promoting and carrying out that high and important, and no less safe and social purpose, the general education of the people, for whom and for whose benefit solely, Church as well as State alone exist. What I have stated to the House is founded on an accurate statement of facts, confirmed by a long chain of authorities, if we wanted such sanction and authority for the support of the object which we have, in view, and which must be eminently conducive, under the divine blessing, to the, promotion of the tranquillity and welfare of Ireland, and the harmony and prosperity of the whole British empire, I beg leave to move, "That it is expedient to commute compositions for tithes in Ireland into a rent-charge, payable by the owners of the first estate of inheritance, and to make further provisions for the better regulation of ecclesiastical duties."