HC Deb 10 March 1837 vol 37 cc213-9
Lord George Lennox

brought forward the motion of which he had given notice, for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the promotion of the officers of the Royal Marines, with a view of giving those officers more rapid promotion, and thereby rendering them more effective. He wished, he said, to observe to the House that there were but three corps in his Majesty's service in which promotion did not proceed by purchase—these were the artillery, the engineers, and the marines; and it was surprising, comparing the promotion in the last with the two former, how slow it proceeded with the Marines, and how justly the officers in that service might complain of the mode in which they were treated. The officers of the Marines could not look forward to the command of a regiment. The most sanguine amongst them might hope for the command of a division, but even so, it would take him forty-four years to attain it; and under the present system no man could expect to attain it until he was at least seventy years of age. Officers scarcely ever could attain to any such command until they became non-effective. In the other grades they found the lieutenant-colonel commandant seventy-seven years of age. The period of service of one senior colonel was fifty-five years, of another fifty-nine, and of many fifty-eight years. A colonel-commandant had, from his advanced age, repeatedly stated, that it was impossible for him to discharge the duties of his situation with satisfaction to himself or advantage to others; yet this officer was compelled to continue in command. There were four second colonel-commandants who had all been forty-four years in the service: there were other lieutenant-colonels and majors who were from forty to forty-four years in the service. The senior captains had been forty years in the service; the junior captains twenty-nine years; ten senior lieutenants twenty-nine years in the service, and fifteen junior lieutenants twenty-eight years in the service. From a comparison between the promotions in the Marine and in the artillery, it appeared that the officer who was now but a lieutenant and captain in the Marines, would be a lieutenant-colonel in the engineers; and that a person who was a senior captain in the Marines, would be in the engineers a major-general. There was an officer in the artillery who had entered the service at the same time as Lieutenant Mastock went into the Marines; that officer was a brevet-major for ten years, and Lieutenant Mastock was for twenty-eight years a lieutenant in the Marines. In the engagement between the Shannon and the Chesapeake, an officer of the Marines boarded the enemy's vessel; honorable mention was made of his name in the dispatch of Captain Broke; that officer, however, was still a lieutenant. All he asked of the Government was a Committee, in order that an inquiry might be made into this subject. He had no doubt that the result of the inquiry would be to render that justice to officers which their gallantry and long services entitled them to.

Captain Boldero

seconded the motion of the noble Lord. He read to the House the eulogium pronounced by his Majesty (when Duke of Clarence) on the eminent services rendered to the country by the Marines. This eulogium was pronounced on the occasion of presenting them with a stand of colours. To show with what in-justice the Marines were treated, he observed, that of all the officers of Marines, employed in the great battle of Trafalgar only one of them had received promotion. It was his opinion that it ought to be recommended to the Admiralty to afford some outlet for the old officers of Marines, many of whom were unfit for duty. In the conflict between the Shannon and the Chesapeake, the officers of Marines who had boarded the American vessel, and of whom hon. mention had been made in the dispatch, received no promotion. Such a circumstance would not have occurred in the navy, officers so distinguished would be immediately promoted, as officers in the navy had been promoted, who took part in the trifling affair the other day at Bilbao. Even latterly the officers of engineers were promoted, while a major of Marines, having six hundred men under him, was neglected. He trusted that, as the Marines were always placed in the van in the time of war, they were not always to be left in the rear when promotion was to take place. For his own part, he could not see any good reason why the Marines should not be placed on the same footing with the other regiments in his Majesty's service. He did not lay the fault of the system upon his Majesty's present Government, but at least they ought to consent to the Committee that was now called for.

Sir Edward Codrington

sincerely hoped the Government would not oppose the present motion—inquiry was at least due to that body. He having witnessed their efficiency in action upon more than one occasion, would say that they had done their duty nobly. With respect to the statement made by the hon. Member who had last spoken of colonelcies having been given away, he would state 8,000l. had been added to the estimates for that purpose, and the commissions given to meritorious naval officers. The great misfortune of the present system of promotion in the Marine corps was, that no matter how a man might distinguish himself he could not be rewarded in the way he merited. It was not quite fair to refer to individual cases, but he would state that he knew one captain who was an exception. No man had more distinguished himself at the battle of Trafalgar, and Admiral Collingwood had declared he considered him more than equal to the best lieutenant in his ship. That officer had never received the smallest reward until lately, when his Majesty had conferred upon him the Order of the Guelph. He sincerely hoped that the present motion, to which he gave his cordial assent, would be acceded to.

Mr. Charles Wood

said, though he could not agree to the appointment of the Committee, yet he entirely concurred in the greater part of what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman. He was most happy to add his approbation to that of the hon. Gentleman of the conduct of the Marine corps in all parts of the world. All that had been said did not at all exceed their merits; by land and by sea they had proved themselves worthy of all that could be said of them. Admitting the statements of the hon. Gentlemen with respect to the extreme age of the officers, and the slowness of promotion in that corps, yet it was to be remembered that the promotion there was carried on entirely by seniority, which was a plan that had been often urged upon the Ministry in that House. It was not true that the Admiralty had done nothing on the subject; it had en- gaged much of their attention, and alterations had been made by them. The noble Lord (Lord George Lennox) had asked for a Committee which he was obliged to refuse. He could see no good which could be derived from it, because the facts were admitted on all sides. The noble Lord said, "Give me a Committee;" but he said, "Give me money." Money was all that was wanted in order to allow the aged officers to retire. The Order in Council of 1824 was still in force, and unless it were changed the retirement of the present aged officers would increase the retiring allowances by a quarter of a million. The gallant Captain had deprecated any comparison between the Marines and any other corps. He mentioned it not for the purpose of diminishing the respect for the Marines; but the fact was, the retirement of invalid officers from the Marines was as one in three, while those from the artillery was as one in four (we believe). The question had occupied as much of the attention of the present board of Admiralty as of any former one. The subject was now under the consideration of the board, who were attempting to find out some plan of allowing them to retire without increasing the public burdens; and in his opinion the whole subject might be safely left to the board of Admiralty, who had great anxiety to afford relief if possible. With respect to Major Owen, he would only state, that he believed it was the intention to include his name in the late brevet, but through some informality it was omitted. He thought a Committee could not elicit more than the country was already in possession of.

Lord Hotham

most willingly bore testimony to the eminent services of the Marines; but still he thought it better to leave the matter in the hands of Government.

Captain Berkeley

said, that when he came to the House, it was his intention to vote for the motion of his noble Friend; but, after the statement of the Secretary of the Admiralty—after hearing from that hon. Gentleman that the just claims of the Marines were under the consideration of the Admiralty, he hoped that his noble Friend would leave the subject in the hands of his Majesty's Government. He was convinced that full justice would be done to the Marine corps. Before he left the Board of Admiralty, the noble Lord who was then at the head of the Admiralty (Lord Auckland) wished that the case of the Marines should be taken into consideration. He hoped that his noble Friend would not press this matter to a divi-

Sir Henry Hardinge

thought it necessary for him to say a few words on this subject. He had no wish to trespass on the time of the House, as he considered the answer that had been given by the Secretary of the Admiralty perfectly satisfactory. He considered the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wood) to have stated that the services of the Marines would be taken into consideration, and, therefore, he conceived that everything essential and substantial was acquired by the answer given by the hon. Gentleman. He must however, say, that one most essential part had been omitted in the argument on the matter, namely, the impropriety of appointing a Committee of that House, by which promotions in the army should be taken into consideration.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that in the answer given by his hon. Friend (Mr. Wood), the reason suggested by the right hon. Baronet amongst others, presented itself to his mind. He objected with the right hon. Baronet to the introduction of the question of promotion in the army before a Committee of the House.

Mr. Hume

said, that he on the other hand felt imperatively called upon to contradict the assertion of the right hon. and gallant Officer. He hoped that the day would never come when any application to the House of Commons respecting the promotion of officers should be refused on the ground of privilege. The fact of the motion being made in Committee was the same thing. He (Mr. Hume) thought it was the duty of the House of Commons, when injustice had been done to any branch of the service, to interfere. If the prerogative of the Crown was improperly exercised, it was the duty of that House to take up the question. He cordially supported the motion of the noble Lord, and if he went out alone, he (Mr. Hume) would accompany him. Was promotion to take place with great rapidity in other corps because they were officered by branches of the aristocracy, while the Marines were passed by? Was it to be supposed that human nature could bear that? In 1827, he brought the case of the Marines before the House, and showed the injustice that had been practised towards them, but without the least effect, for nothing had been done. If the House of Commons allowed this to go on they were depriving themselves of the controlling power which they possessed. In his opinion a Committee ought to be appointed to inquire into the subject. No service deserved better or was less rewarded, and the course pursued towards them was the height of injustice. In the six years ending in July 1820, the House would scarcely believe that the promotion had been in the ranks of captains and first and second lieutenants, as followed — In the engineers, the promotions were fifty-six, in the artillery, 125, in the navy, 304, whilst in the Marines there was but one promotion. Would the House of Commons tolerate the continuance of such injustice? It became that House to ascertain whether full justice was done or not, and if the Returns proved that justice was not done, then a Committee should be appointed. The hon. Secretary of the Admiralty said, that money was wanting. He would venture to say, that if a case of justice was made out, that House would never refuse money, though it was careful as regarded those who were mere pensioners on the public. Those who never did any public service were the class of men whom the House of Commons ought to refuse to support; not those who served the country well and faithfully.

Admiral Adam

thought that that House ought to furnish adequate means to the Crown to provide for the retirement of the full number of this distinguished corps. He agreed, however, with the right hon. Baronet (Sir H. Hardinge) that this was not a matter which could properly come before a Committee.

Colonel Thompson

was anxious to know why the Marine forces, when they distinguished themselves in action, should not be rewarded, by means of the brevet, as well as other officers in the King's service? He thought that the most legitimate employment of the brevet was in bestowing rank on officers under such circumstances. He would certainly support the motion.

Mr. G. F. Young

thought that the noble Lord (Lennox) might be satisfied with the answer given by the Secretary of the Admiralty. If the noble Lord pressed this matter to a division, he would place many Members in a false position; and many of those who would vote against the motion on constitutional grounds, were as zealous as the noble Lord to do full justice to the Marine forces.

Mr. C. Wood

begged to say, that it was impossible for him to answer for the Board of Admiralty as to what they would do. He thought, however, when he told the House, that the subject was already under consideration of the Board of Admiralty, with the view of doing justice, that this would be sufficient. He would only add, that he was sure that the Board of Admiralty would take the earliest means in their power to apply to his Majesty for an Order in Council to make such regulations as should be necessary.

Motion withdrawn.

The House in Committee of Supply.