MERCHANT SHIPPING. (Hansard, 7 June 1837)

Mr. Poulett
Thomson would put it to the House whether it was advisable to read this Bill a second time. He considered the Bill so faulty in its details, that in his opinion, and he believed in the opinion of the House, it would be impossible ever to carry it into a law. When the hon. Member for Sheffield introduced this Bill, he took the liberty of recommending the hon. Member to avoid as much as possible entering into minute details in framing it. He was sorry that the hon. Member did not think it advisable to adopt that suggestion, as the Bill went into a series of details of the most extraordinary nature, and which were calculated to destroy the whole mercantile law of this country, and o establish in its place a new and arbitrary power. The measure was of a character which he was sure could not receive the consent of the House, and he hoped the hon. Member would not press the second reading to a division. If the Bill went into Committee, he did not think that the Committee could reduce it to such a shape as to induce the House to agree to it. In the first place the Bill established a very expensive marine board, with power much beyond that of the 1223 Legislature; in point of fact, with supreme power. The Bill proposed that this board should draw up a code of mercantile laws, and that from the moment these laws should be published in a cheap form they should be conclusive. The Bill proposed also that this board should decide upon all cases of dispute between shipowners, underwriters, &c, and that their decisions should be final; thus completely setting aside the courts of law. When the hon. Member first introduced this measure, he stated those parts of it in which he concurred. He agreed, for instance, as to the propriety of some inquiry being made by competent and responsible persons into the causes of shipwrecks, and he agreed also that some examination ought to take place into the qualifications of masters in the merchant service. The Bill proposed to make this examination compulsory, and he certainly could not agree to that, as he thought it would be an unjust interference with the rights of the shipping interest. On this subject he proposed to introduce a clause in the Pilotage Bill, which would place the examination of masters, as far as pilotage was concerned, under the control of the Trinity-house. It might then be a matter of consideration whether they would extend the examination further, and whether a full voluntary examination should not take place before the body. He should be glad to assist in carrying these objects into execution, but the present Bill involved considerations of such great importance, that he should not be justified in giving his consent to the second reading.

§ Mr. Ingham
did not think that the right hon. Gentleman had shown sufficient reasons to induce the House to reject the Bill on the second reading. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that there were parts of the Bill which he approved of; why refuse, then, to go into Committee, when those parts of the Bill which were objectionable might be left out, and those clauses only retained which should be considered judicious and reasonable.

§ Mr. Hume
begged the House to recollect that this Bill arose out of a long inquiry before a Committee of the House. If it were only for Clause 13, which established inquiry in case of shipwreck, he thought the Bill ought to be allowed to go into Committee. Many persons were yearly shipped from our shores in vessels wholly unseaworthy, and hundreds were 1224 drowned, but no inquiry took place. It appeared to him that a mercantile power like Great Britain ought above all things to endeavour to make her shipping secure by every possible means. He hoped, therefore, that the House would not reject the second reading of this Bill, but let it go into Committee. He thought that the matter was one which ought to have been taken up by his Majesty's Government.

§ Mr. G. F. Young
agreed with the right hon. President of the Board of Trade, that the causes of shipwreck and examination of masters were objects that well deserved inquiry; but the present Bill was such a legislative monstrosity, and so utterly incapable of being worked out with any beneficial result, that he thought it would be only wasting the time of the House and holding out delusive expectations if they were to agree to the second reading. He would therefore move, that the Bill be read a second time that clay six months.

§ Mr. A. Chapman
seconded the amendment, and said, that he trusted that the House would not allow itself to be led away by fanciful speculations which were wholly at variance with experience.

§ Sir E. Codrington
said, that it seemed to be generally agreed that the principle of this Bill was good, and that something should be done, the only difference being as to certain clauses. But surely the necessity of amending certain clauses did not justify the House in rejecting the Bill altogether. These clauses might be discussed and amended in Committee, and, therefore, if only for the sake of humanity, he hoped the House would agree to the second reading of the Bill.

§ Mr. Labouchere
begged to say, that the hon. and gallant Officer was mistaken in supposing that his right hon. Friend (Mr. P. Thomson) agreed to the principle of this Bill. He certainly approved of the object of the Bill, but the principle and the object were distinct things. He (Mr. Labouchere) conceived the principle of the Bill to be a vexatious interference with the shipping interest of the country, to which he was most decidedly opposed. Whilst, therefore, he also approved of the object of the Bill, he thought if the House sanctioned its second reading they would be spreading alarm among the shipping interest; and that if the Bill were carried into effect it would inflict a great blow upon that interest, and at the same time be highly in- 1225 jurious to the seamen themselves. He quite agreed with the hon. Member that it was desirable to have an inquiry into the number and causes of shipwrecks; but he did not think that the machinery of this Bill was necessary for the attainment of that object. Upon every view of the case, therefore, he thought that they would be best consulting the interests of all those connected with the mercantile shipping of this country by not allowing this Bill to be read a second time.

§ Mr. Buckingham
said, that the subject of shipwrecks had been referred to a Select Committee last year, of which he had the honour of being appointed chairman, and the result of that Committee's inquiry was to prove that upwards of three millions sterling of property and a thousand lives were annually sacrificed in the present state of the shipping of this country. It appeared also to the Committee that if a better system were to be established, at least two-thirds of that property and half of the sacrifice of life might be saved for the future. If the Members of his Majesty's Government would promise to take the matter upon themselves, as they had done in the case of the emigration ships, be should be satisfied to leave it in their hands, for he could not see why the sailors of the British merchant service were not entitled to the same amount of protection which had been extended to emigrants. But if it were proposed to apply the benefit of inquiry in cases only where loss of vessels and of life had already occurred, he should disagree from that proposal as far from an efficient one; prevention in his mind was far better than any post facto measures of this kind. He had not the least objection to allow his Bill to be referred to a Committee up stairs,—let but the object which he had in view be accomplished, and he should be satisfied. It was his intention to persevere in his motion, under the understanding that if his Bill were read a second time now it should be referred to a Committee up stairs.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Brotherton, J.
Barnard, E. G.	Bruce, C. L. C.
Bateson, Sir R.	Cayley, E. S.
Bewes, T.	Chandos, Marquess of
Brodie, W. B.	Codrington, Admiral

Gaskell, Daniel	Ruthven, E.
Gaskell, Jas. Milnes	Tancred, H. W.
Gladstone, W. E.	Thompson, Colonel
Hindley, C.	Wakley, T.
Maxwell, J.	Wilbraham, G.
Musgrave, Sir R.	Williams, W.
O'Connell, J.	Wortley, Hon. J. S.
O'Connell, M. J.
Pease, J.	TELLERS.
Pechell, Captain	Buckingham, J. S.
Potter, R.	Ingham, R.

List of the NOES.
Agnew, Sir A.	Finch, G.
Alsager, Captain	Fitzroy, hon. H.
Angerstein, J.	Folkes, Sir W.
Ashley, Visct.	Follett, Sir W.
Bailey, J.	Forbes, Wm.
Balfour, T.	Forster, C. S.
Bannerman, Alex.	Fremantle, Sir T.
Barclay, C.	Freshfield, J. W.
Baring, F. T.	Gordon, Robert
Baring, T.	Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Becket, rt. hon. Sir J.	Goulburn, Sergeant
Bell, M.	Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.
Berkeley, hon. F.	Grey, Sir Geo.,
Bethell, R.	Grimston, hon. E. H.
Blackburne, I.	Grote, G.
Blunt, Sir C.	Halse, J.
Bonham, R. Francis	Hardy, J.
Borthwick, Peter	Harland, Wm. Chas.
Bowes, John	Hastie, A.
Brady, D. C.	Hawes, B.
Bramston, T. W.	Hawkes, T.
Bridgman, H.	Hayes, Sir E. S.
Buller, Sir J. Y.	Heathcote, G. J.
Burdon, W. W.	Hector, C. J.
Callaghan, D.	Heneage, E.
Canning, rt. hn. Sir S.	Herbert, hon. S.
Cartwright, W. R.	Heron, Sir R.
Cavendish, hon. G. H.	Hinde, J. H.
Chapman, L.	Hope, J.
Chapman, A.	Houstoun, G.
Chichester, A.	Inglis, Sir R. H.
Clerk, Sir G.	Johnstone, Sir J.
Clive, Edward Bolton	Johnston, A.
Colborne, N. W. R.	Jones, W.
Compton, H. C.	Jones, T.
Conolly, E. M.	Irton, Samuel
Corbett, T. G.	King, E. P.
Crewe, Sir G.	Labouchere, rt. hon. H.
Dalmeny, Lord	Lawson, A.
Darlington, Earl of	Lefroy, A.
Denistoun, J.	Lefroy, rt. hon. T.
Dillwyn, L. W.	Lemon, Sir C.
Dowdeswell, W.	Lennard, T. B.
Dugdale, W. S.	Lennox, Lord G.
Duncombe, T.	Lennox, Lord A.
Duncombe, hon. W.	Lincoln, Earl of
Dundas, J. D.	Lister, E. C.
Dunlop, J.	Lowther, J. H.
Ebrington, Viscount	Lushington, Dr.
Ellice, E.	Lushington, C.
Elphinstone, H.	Lygon, hon. General
Estcourt, T.	Mackinnon, W. A.
Evans, G.	Mactaggart, J.
Fazakerly, J. N.	Mangles, J.

Marsland, Henry	Stanley, E.
Maunsell, T. P.	Stanley, Lord
Melgund, Viscount	Stuart, P. M.
Miles, W.	Stuart, Lord J.
Molesworth, Sir W.	Strutt, E.
Mordaunt, Sir J.	Sturt, H. C.
Mosley, Sir O.	Thompson, rt. hon. C.
Mostyn, hon. E.	Thomson, P. B.
Murray, rt. hon. J. A.	Thompson, Alderman
Neeld, Joseph	Thornely, T.
Nicholl, J.	Tracey, C. H.
Ord, W.	Trelawny, Sir W.
Paget, Frederick	Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Parrott, J.	Turner, W.
Pattison, J.	Verner, Colonel
Pendarves, E. W. W.	Vigors, N. A.
Perceval, Colonel	Vivian, G. H.
Plumptre, J. P.	Wall, C. B.
Polhill, F.	Warburton, H.
Ponsonby, hon. J.	Ward, H. G.
Price, R.	Weymss, Captain
Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.	Whitmore, T. C.
Rice, right hon. T. S.	Wilks, J.
Richards, R.	Williamson, Sir H.
Rickford, W.	Wilmot, Sir J. E.
Roebuck, J. A.	Wilson, H.
Ross, C.	Winnington, H. J.
Rushbrooke, Colonel	Wood, C.
Rushout, G.	Wrottesley, Sir J.
Sanderson, R.	Wyndham, W.
Sandon, Viscount	Young, J.
Sheppard, T.	Young, Sir W.
Shirley, E. J.
Sibthorp, Colonel	TELLERS.
Sinclair, Sir G.	Hutt, W.
Stanley, E. J.	Young, G. F.