HC Deb 05 June 1837 vol 38 cc1209-10

The House in Committee on the Poor-laws (Ireland) Bill.

Lord Stanley

objected to the 43rd Clause on the ground that it sanctioned the endowment by the State of 100 Roman Catholic clergymen in the various workhouses in Ireland. He therefore hoped it would be postponed with the view of devising some means of modifying its operation.

Lord J. Russell

said, he had heard nothing to convince him of the inexpediency of this clause. With respect to the observation of the noble Lord, that it would, pro tanto, be endowing the Roman Catholic religion, he begged to remind the Committee that clergymen of that church were now paid by the State, in point of fact, they attended at the barracks in Dublin; and it would be unworthy a liberal Government not to provide the poor inmates of workhouses with religious instruction according to the creed they professed.

Sir George Sinclair

thought the noble Lord's argument struck at the root of the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. If the State paid the Roman Catholic clergy employed in workhouses, they might as well endow Roman Catholicism at once.

Mr. O'Connell

hoped the Government would persevere with the clause. The question was, whether the Roman Catholics confined in workhouses should be excluded altogether from the means of religious instruction and consolation in connexion with their own form of worship.

Lord Stanley

maintained that the real question was, not whether the clergymen of any persuasion should be prohibited from visiting their flock in the workhouse, but whether, for the purpose of forcing the introduction of the Roman Catholic clergy into every workhouse in Ireland, they should establish a deviation from the English Bill, and compel the Commissioners to give them salaries unlimited in extent, and over which the rate-payers should have no control. In the English Bill, the appointment was vested in the Board of Guardians; but here a distinction was made in favour of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland, which Parliament had not thought it necessary to make in favour of the Protestant clergy of England.

Viscount Howick

contended, that the circumstances of the two countries were altogether different. The question was, whether religious instruction should not be provided for the inmates of the workhouses in Ireland, because the great majority might be Roman Catholics.

The Committee divided on the clause:— Ayes 122; Noes 36: Majority 86.

List of the AYES.
Adam, Sir C. Lynch, A. H.
Aglionby, H. A. Mactaggart, J.
Angerstein, J. Martin, J.
Bannerman, A. Martin, T.
Baring, F. T. Morpeth, Viscount
Baring, H. B. Mullins, F. W.
Baring, W. B. Murray, J. A.
Baring, T. Musgrave, Sir R.
Berkeley, hon. G. O'Brien, W. S.
Berkeley, hon. C. O'Connell, D.
Bewes, T. O'Connell, J.
Biddulph, R. O'Connell, M. J.
Blake, M. J. Ord, W.
Bodkin, J. J. Palmer, General
Bowes, J. Palmerston, Viscount
Bridgman, H. Parker, J.
Brodie, W. B. Parnell, Sir H.
Brotherton, J. Parrott, J.
Browne, R. D. Parry, Sir L. P. J.
Callaghan, D. Pechell, Captain
Chalmers, P. Ponsonby, J.
Chapman, L. Ponsonby, W.
Clive, E. B. Power, J.
Codrington, Admiral Pryme, G.
Collier, J. Pusey, P.
Coote, Sir C. Roche, W.
Crawford, W. S. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Dalmeny, Lord Rundle, J.
Denistoun, J. Russell, Lord J.
Dillwyn, L. W. Ruthven, E.
Donkin, Sir R. Scourfield, W. H.
Elphinstone, H. Scrope, G. P.
Evans, G. Seymour, Lord
Fazakerley, J. N. Steuart, R.
Ferguson, Sir R. Stuart, Lord J.
Finn, W. F. Stuart, V.
Fitzsimon, C. Talbot, C. R. M.
French, F. Talbot, J. H.
Gordon, R. Talfourd, Sergeant
Goring, H. D. Tancred, H. W.
Grattan, J. Thompson, Colonel
Grey, Sir G. Thornley, T.
Hastie, A. Tooke, W.
Hay, Sir A. L. Trelawney, Sir W.
Heneage, E. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Hobhouse, Sir J. Tulk, C. A.
Hodges, T. L. Turner, W.
Howick, Viscount Vigors, N. A.
Hutt, W. Wakley, T.
James, W. Walker, R.
Jephson, C. D. O. Whalley,Sir S.
King, E. B. Wigney, I. N.
Knight, H. G. Wilbraham, G.
Labouchere, H. Williams, W.
Lennard, T. B. Williams, W. A.
Lennox, Lord G. Williamson, H.
Lennox, Lord A. Wilson, H.
Longfield, R. Wood, C.
Lucas, E. Wood, Alderman
Worsley, Lord TELLERS.
Woulfe, Sergeant O'Ferrall, M.
Wyse, T. Smith, R. V.
List of the NOES.
Acheson, Viscount Inglis, Sir R. H.
Agnew, Sir A. Irton, S.
Archdall, M. Johnston, A.
Baines, E. Jones, T.
Bateson, Sir R. Kearsley, J. H.
Bolling, W. Lefroy, right hon. T.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Lygon, hon. General
Chichester, A. Mackenzie, T.
Dick, Q. Marsland, H.
Dunbar, G. Patten, J. W.
Dundas, hon. T. Plumptre, J. P.
Elley, Sir. J. Richards, J.
Forbes, W. Sheppard, T.
Fox, C. Stanley, Lord
Gladstone, W. E. West, J. B.
Goulburn, H. Wilbraham, B.
Hamilton, G. A.
Hector, C. J. TELLERS.
Hume, J. Ross, G.
Jackson, Sergeant Sinclair, Sir G.

The clause added to the Bill.

On Clause 47 being put, "That Commissioners may visit and regulate hospitals and other charitable institutions not wholly supported by voluntary contributions,"

Mr. Sergeant Jackson moved, that the words "or by private endowments," be added. He thought that institutions thus supported should not be subject to the control of the Commissioners.

Viscount Morpeth

said, he considered the amendment judicious, and he would not object the insertion of the words.

Mr. O'Connell

thought it would be advisable to postpone the clause.

Mr. Wakley

thought the principle of this clause unconnected with any other involved in the Bill, and that it would have a most injurious bearing on the interesls of the medical profession. He moved that it be postponed.

On this amendment the Committee then divided:—Ayes 13; Noes 109: Majority 96.

List of the AYES.
Bridgman, H. O'Connell, M.
Crawford, W. S. Ruthven, E.
Ferguson, R. A. Vigors, N. A.
Fitzsimon, C. Warburton, H.
Musgrave, Sir R. Wyse, T.
O'Brien, W. S. TELLERS.
O'Connell, J. Wakley, T.
O'Connell, M. J. O'Connell, D.
List of the NOES.
Acheson, Viscount Angerstein, J.
Adam, Sir C. Archdall, M.
Aglionby, H. A. Baines, E.
Bannerman, A. Ingham, R.
Baring, F. T. Inglis, Sir R.
Bateson, Sir R. Irton, S.
Bell, M. Jones, T.
Bewes, T. Labouchtre, H.
Blackburne, I. Lefroy, A.
Blake, M. J. Lefroy, hon. T.
Borthwick, P. Lennox, Lord G.
Bowes, J. Lennox, Lord A.
Bowring, Dr. Longfield, R.
Broadwood, H. Lucas, E.
Brocklehurst, J. Lynch, A. H.
Brodie, W. B. Martin, T.
Brotherton, J. Maxwell, J.
Browne, R. D. Morpeth, Viscount
Buller, Sir J. Y. Mostyn, hon. E.
Callaghan, D. Mullins, F. W.
Cayley, E. S. Murray, J. A.
Chalmers, P. Nicholl, J.
Chapman, L. O'Ferral, R. M.
Collier, J. Parker, J.
Corry, right hon. H. Parrott, J.
Dalmeny, Lord Parry Sir L. P.
Damer, G. L. D. Patten, J. W.
Dick, Q. Perceval, Colonel
Dowdeswell, W. Ponsonby, J.
Ebrington, Viscount Pryme, G.
Ellice, E. Roche, W.
Elphinstone, H. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Etwall, R. Russell, Lord John
Evans, G. Scrope, G. P.
Forbes, W. Smith, R. V.
Forster, C. S. Stanley, Lord
Fox, C. Stuart, V.
Fremantle, Sir T. Talbot, J. H.
French, F. Thomas, Colonel
Gordon, R. Thornley, T.
Goulburn, H. Tooke, W.
Grattan, J. Trevor, G. R.
Grattan, H. Troubridge, E. T.
Griesley, Sir R. Wallace, R.
Grey, Sir G. West, J. B.
Hamilton, G. A. Wilbraham, G.
Hastie, A. Wilbraham, B.
Hector, C. J. Williams, W.
Herries, J. C. Williams, W. A.
Hinde, J. H. Williamson, H.
Hobhouse, Sir J. Wood, Alderman
Hodges, T. L. Woulfe, Sergeant
Howard, P. H. Young, G. F.
Howick, Viscount TELLERS.
Hughes, W. H. Steuart, R.
Jackson, Sergeant Hay, Sir A. L.

House resumed. Committee to sit again.