ABERDEEN SCHOOLS. (Hansard, 16 May 1836)

§ Mr. Bannerman
rose in pursuance of notice to move to refer back the Aberdeen Schools Bill to the Select Committee which had already reported upon it. The hon. Member called the attention of the House to the vicious system of legislation and to the party spirit prevailing in Select Committees. He hoped to be allowed to state a few circumstances connected with the measure which he thought would place the subject in a clearer point of view, and show that he was justified in the course he recommended. A discussion had occurred on the second reading of the Bill, and if it had been thrown out by a decision against the principle, much trouble and expense would have been saved; but upon a division it was carried by a majority of 46. The House had thus decided in favour of the principle of the measure—a most important principle to Scotland—and the clauses were sent to a Select Committee for its determination upon them. None of the facts were disputed in the Committee, but the hon. Member for Harwich, with that honesty and candour which distinguished his votes and proceedings, admitted that the Bill was to be opposed because it contained appropriation on a small scale. Nobody had disputed the testimony of the Lord Provost of Aberdeen, who was the only witness, no further evidence being considered necessary; but it was said, that the Bill contained an appropriation clause, and that for that reason it could not be passed into law. By a majority of twelve to eight the Committee decided, that the preamble had not been proved; and if he (Mr. Bannerman) were able to establish that that decision was wrong, he apprehended it would be enough to warrant his motion. He expressed his strong sense of the impropriety of the conduct of those 921 Members of the Committee who came down to vote without having heard the evidence, and complained that the majority had made up their minds before even the Lord Provost had been examined. As to the supposed remedy by appeal, it did not apply to this case, as there was no party promoting the Bill who could petition for the reference of the question to that tribunal. The hon. Member read the preamble, contending that many of the facts there asserted had been admitted, and that the rest had been distinctly established in evidence. The truth was, that the appropriation clause was the real and only ground of resistance, and he was willing to refer the question to any lawyer to decide whether the preamble had not been completely made out. Under these circumstances he moved, that the Bill be recommitted, and that the Committee be instructed to reconsider its determination.

Mr. Robert Ferguson
seconded the motion. He could not account for the decision of the majority, unless it was from the alarm even a precedent on so small a scale might create at the present moment, of an appropriation of a surplus for the object of education.

Captain Gordon
contended that the motion recommended a most extraordinary and unprecedented mode of proceeding, and that if there were any just and sufficient reason to complain of the decision of the Committee, the proper remedy was by appeal. True it was, that the Committee had decided upon the principle of the measure, because they had determined against the preamble in which the principle was involved. The estates had been left by Sir A. Hay to be applied by the trustees to a particular purpose, and to no other, as they would answer for it at the day of judgment; and yet the promoters of the present Bill wished to divert the funds to a totally different object—the erection of schools—not for the benefit of all the citizens of Aberdeen, but for the advantage of such as could afford to pay an additional sum for the education of their children.

§ Mr. Poulter
said, that the Committee had gone beyond its duty in deciding against the principle of the Bill which had been affirmed by the House on the second reading. As to the last observation of the hon. and gallant Member, the Lord Provost of Aberdeen had distinctly stated, that all classes in that city would be benefitted by the construction of the schools. The interests of education were of the highest importance, and the testator, Sir Alexander Hay, 922 having only the welfare of Aberdeen in view, would not have disapproved of the proposed application of the funds to the erection and maintenance of schools. If the present motion were singular, it arose out of the still more singular conduct of the Committee; and when it was objected that the Bill proposed a misappropriation of funds, it ought not to be forgotten that Parliament had already sanctioned the application of 14,000l. to the construction of a bridge unconnected with the bridge of Balgounie, which had been erected by Robert Bruce.

Sir George Clerk
opposed the motion. A similar application made on Friday last, had been withdrawn on the ground that it was unprecedented. He did not think it any valid objection to the conduct of the Committee in this case that it had acted upon principle; it had done so, and had decided that money left for one purpose ought not to be applied to another The House had only determined when it passed the second reading, that the promoters of the measure had made out a prima facie case, but on further inquiry by the Committee, it appeared that the preamble was not proved, and that the prima facie case could not be sustained. Since he voted in the Committee he had carefully gone over the whole of the evidence, and he never was better satisfied with any decision to which he had at any time come. There seemed to him no more ground for sending back this Bill to the Committee than for sending back every other in which the Report did not happen to satisfy the parties; he requested the opinion of the Chair upon the point of order.

§ The Speaker
said, that the expediency of the proposition was a question on which, of course, he should not give any opinion, but he knew no reason why in point of form the motion of the hon. Member for Aberdeen might not be made.

Sir Andrew Leith
Hay stated, that the -only evidence heard, that of the Lord Provost of Aberdeen, was as clear as possible in favour of the Bill, yet the Committee threw out the preamble. He hoped the House would consent to the motion.

§ Captain Wemyss
had been a Member of the Committee. The preamble had been thrown out by the votes of three or four English Members, who entered the room after the discussion upon the subject had been concluded.

List of the AYES.
Acheson, Viscount	Hastie, A.
Aglionby, H. A.	Hector, C. J.
Ainsworth, P.	Hindley, C.
Attwood, Thomas	Hodges, T. L.
Bagshaw, John	Howard, hon. E.
Baring, F. T.	Hume, J.
Barnard, E. G.	Hutt, W.
Barron, H. W.	Jervis, John
Bellew, Rich. M.	Lefevre, Charles S.
Bewes, T.	Lennox, Lord G.
Biddulph, Robert	Lennox, Lord A.
Bish, Thomas	Long, Walter
Blackburne, John	Lushington, Dr. S.
Blamire, W.	Lushington, Charles
Blunt, Sir Charles R.	Lynch, A. H. S.
Bowring, Dr.	Mackenzie, S.
Brady, D. C.	Macleod, R.
Bridgman, Hewitt	M'Taggart, J.
Brocklehurst, J.	Marjoribanks, S.
Brotherton, J.	Marshall, William
Browne, R. D.	Marsland, Henry
Bulwer, H. L.	Maule, hon. Fox
Byng, George	Morrison, J.
Byng, G. S.	Mostyn, hon. E. L.
Campbell, Sir J.	Murray, rt. hon. J.
Cavendish, hon. G. H.	Nagle, Sir R.
Chalmers, P.	North, Frederick
Chapman, M. L.	O'Brien, Cornelius
Chichester, J. P. B.	O'Brien, W. S.
Clay, William	O'Connell, J.
Clements, Viscount	O'Connell, M. J.
Codrington, Sir E.	O'Connell, Morgan
Colborne, N. W. R.	O'Ferrall, R. M.
Cowper, hon. W. F,	Oliphant, Lawrence
Crawford, W. S.	O'Loghlen, M.
Crawford, W.	Oswald, James
Dalmeny, Lord	Paget, Frederick
Denison, W. J.	Palmer, Gen.
Dillwyn, L. W.	Parker, John
Divett, E.	Parnell, Sir H.
Donkin, Sir R.	Parrott, Jasper.
Duncombe, T. S.	Pattison, J.
Dundas, hon. T.	Pechell, Capt. R.
Dundas, J. D.	Pendarves, E. W.
Ebrington, Lord	Philips, Mark
Edwards, Colonel	Philips, G. R.
Ellice, E.	Potter, R.
Elphinstone, H.	Poulter, John Sayer
Evans, George	Power, J.
Ewart, W.	Pryme, George
Fergus, John	Rice, rt. hon. T. S.
Ferguson, Sir R.	Robarts, Abraham W
Ferguson, Robert	Roche, W.
Fergusson, rt. hon. C.	Roebuck, J. A.
Fitzgibbon, hon. B.	Rolfe, Sir M. R.
Fitzroy, Lord C.	Rundle, J.
Folkes, Sir W.	Ruthven, E.
Gaskell, Daniel	Scholefield, J.
Grattan, J.	Scott, Sir E. D.
Grey, Sir Geo., Bart.	Scot, J. W.
Grey, hon. Charles	Sharpe, General
Grote, G.	Stanley, E. J.
Guest, J. J.	Steuart, R.
Hall, B.	Stewart, P. Maxwell
Harland, W. Charles	Strutt, Edward

Stuart, Lord James	Wallace, R.
Stuart, V.	Ward, Henry George
Talfourd, Sergeant	Wason, R.
Tancred, H. W.	Wemyss, Capt.
Thompson, Col.	Whalley, Sir S.
Thorneley, T.	White, S.
Trelawney, Sir W.	Wigney, Isaac N.
Troubridge, Sir E. T.	Wilbraham, G.
Tulk, C. A.	Williams, W.
Turner, Wm.	Wood, C.
Villiers, Charles P.	Wrightson, W.
Vivian, Major	Wrottesley, Sir J.
Vivian, J. H.	TELLERS.
Wakley, T.	Bannerman, Alex.
Walker, Richard	Hay, Sir A.L.

List of the NOES.
Alsager, Captain	Hill, Sir R. Bart.
Attwood, M.	Hogg, James Weir
Bailey, J.	Hoy, J. B.
Baillie, H. D.	Hughes, Hughes
Barclay, David	Jackson, Sergeant
Baring F.	Jermyn, Earl of
Baring H. Bingham	Ingham, R.
Barneby, John	Inglis, Sir R. H. Bart.
Bateson, Sir R.	Jones, W.
Beckett, Sir J.	Jones, Theobald
Bethell, Richard	Knightley, Sir C.
Bonham, R. Francis	Lefroy, Anthony
Bradshaw, James	Lefroy, Sergeant
Brownrigg, J. S.	Lincoln, Earl of
Bruce, C. L. C.	Lygon, hon. Col. H.B
Brudenell, Lord	Maclean, Donald
Buller, Sir J. B. Yarde	Mahon, Lord
Canning, Sir S.	Manners, Lord G.
Cartwright, W. R.	Meynell, Capt.
Chapman, Aaron	Mordaunt, Sir J., Bt.
Charlton, E. L.	Mosley, Sir O., Bart.
Chisholm, A.	Packe, C. W.
Clive, Vise.	Parker, M.
Conolly, E. M.	Patten, John Wilson
Corry, hon. H. T. L.	Peel, Sir R., Bart.
Darlington, Earl of	Peel, Colonel J.
Dunbar, George	Pemberton, Thomas
Egerton, Wm. Tatton.	Penruddock, J. H.
Egerton, Lord Fran.	Perceval, Col.
Elley, Sir J.	Præd, W. M.
Estcourt, Thos. G. B.	Pringle, A.
Estcourt, Thos. S. B.	Rae, Sir Wm., Bart.
Ferguson, G.	Reid, Sir J. Rae
Follett, Sir W. Webb	Richards, J.
Forbes, Wm.	Ridley, Sir M. W.
Forster, Charles S.	Ross, Charles
Freemantle, Sir T. W.	Rushbrooke, Col.
Gaskell, J. M.	Ryle, John
Gladstone, Thos.	Scarlett, hon. R,
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.	Sheppard, T.
Goulburn, Sergeant	Sinclair, Sir George
Greisley, Sir R.	Smith, J. A.
Halford, H.	Somerset, Lord G.
Hamilton, Lord C.	Stanley, Lord
Hardinge, Sir H,	Sturt, Henry Chas.
Hardy, J.	Thomas, Col.
Hawes, Benjamin	Trevor, hon. Arthur
Hawkins, J. H.	Twiss, Horace
Henniker, Lord	Vivian, John Ennis

Wall, C. B.	Young, J.
Walter, John	Young, Sir W.
Weyland, Major	TELLERS.
Williams, Thomas P.	Clerk, Sir G., Bart.
Wortley, hon. J. S.	Gordon, W.