MUNICIPAL REFORM (IRELAND). (Hansard, 23 March 1836)

§ On Schedule C— Mr. Shaw
said, that he should be very glad to know the principle upon which this Schedule was formed? As to Schedules A and B, the first (A) was composed of places containing above 20,000 souls—and B, of those above 15,000; but with regard to Schedule C, it was impossible to discover any principle upon which it was drawn up. [[Viscount Morpeth: the principle was to preserve all boroughs that had existing Corporations.] Then that principle had not been followed; for, from the list in the Commissioners' Report answering that description, which amounted to sixty in number, eight boroughs had been omitted, and two had been inserted which were not to be found in that list.

§ Mr. Shaw
could not understand why Midleton should be omitted if Belturbet were to be kept, inasmuch as they appeared in the same list in the Report, but Midleton was above Belturbet.

§ Viscount Morpeth
said, that although the population was not so large, they were in the possession of property to the amount in value of 200l.

§ Mr. Shaw
said, that the Commissioners reported but 9l. per annum, but that clearly property was not the principle upon which these places had been selected.

§ Mr. John Young
stated, that the Corporation of Belturbet was practically extinct. The late provost had died more than a year ago; but since, the Report of the Commissioners had been drawn up, and so many of the forms had been disused, that the patron Lord Belmore, as he was informed, found he had not the power of re-appointment to the office, which remained vacant. Of the 2,062 persons who were returned as forming the population of Belturbet, nearly 500 lived in a different parish, out of the corporation bounds, and divided from them by the river. Certainly, no town of equal size in Ireland contained a greater number of respectable inhabitants, every way qualified to possess the privileges and discharge the trusts of a Corporation; but he rather thought that if their opinion were ascertained, the majority of the better and more independent householders would be glad to be without the necessity of frequent elections, with their accompanying excitement and bad feeling, and to have the property of the corporation vested, as it ought to be, in Commissioners, for the use and benefit of householders, for charitable purposes, and the general improvement of the town.

Mr. Randall Plunkett
begged that the Committee would just observe the extreme absurdity of giving a Corporation to Navan, which had neither tolls nor corporate property. It once had both, he admitted; that is, it certainly had tolls, but the limits of the corporate property and the titles to it, in the Corporation, were very undefined and obscure. Navan had a Bienzi, a highly patriotic individual, of the name of Farrell, he believed, who, in 1827, got rid of the tolls altogether; and the same pa- 516 triot had also the honour of rescuing a part of what was believed to be corporate property from the fangs of the Corporation. Now, as to this property, it was supposed once to have been as much nearly as 1,200 acres; but not above 118 acres of it could be recovered. A vast number of most wretched cabins had been built by persons settled thereon; and if this Bill should pass, and the recommendation of the corporation Commission be adopted, about ascertaining the limits, these unfortunate creatures would, by the philanthropy of the charitable Attorney-General, be turned out of house and home, and their only subsistence taken from them. But, again, by the very Report of the Commissioners, it seemed that there was no borough court now—that the portreeve received but 5l., wherewith to pay the salaries of the corporation; and hereof the two town-sergeants claimed an arrear upon their dues, they being entitled to 4l. annually, and a hat and cloak. All the corporate offices had fallen into disuse, and what was more, there never could have been the least necessity for them. He had some right to know something about that town, and he knew that its streets were part of the county roads, and provided for by the grand jury. As to lighting, the town never was publicly lighted; and as for a watch, what, more could be wanted than the constabulary as at present, or as they would be under the Bill now passing through this House. He therefore moved, that Navan be struck out of the Bill.

§ Mr. Sergeant O'Loghlen
said, the question was not whether Navan had considerable property, but whether Navan was entitled to collect tolls. It was the opinion of Sir Anthony Hart that tolls should be devoted to public purposes, and that a receiver should be appointed. If tolls were to be so applied, instead of being placed in the hands of corporators, they would unquestionably be paid.

§ Mr. Shaw
did not think any person apart from political feeling, would deny that the abolition of tolls would be a greater public benefit to the place where they were collected, and particularly to the lower orders, than any possible appropriation of tax that could be devised.

Mr. O'Connell
entirely agreed that tolls should be abolished where the party did not get value, but he thought they would be found extremely useful under proper management, and if applied, for instance, in establishing markets and hambles, and 517 erecting public scales for the benefit of the poor. If the poor could get these advantages at the expense of the wealthier classes who pay tolls, it would be a great matter. The question depended altogether on the application of the tolls. If the public refused to pay them it was because they were to be paid into Corporations, and no matter whether the toll-payer was Protestant, Catholic, or Presbyterian, he withheld it on that ground, and he had just as great an objection to a Catholic toll as a Protestant toll, when he did not get value in exchange for it.

§ Mr. Richards
contended that the amount collected was uncertain. Now, if it were necessary to hare market-houses, and scales for weighing goods for sale, established, why should not the inhabitants assess themselves for that purpose, and not do so by making persons who came to sell their goods pay toll, over which they had no check, and which experience had shown was open to considerable abuse and misapplication? As to the hon. and learned Gentleman insinuating that "Protestants" misapplied those funds, did he mean to say that avarice was less predominant in persons of other persuasions? He was disposed to think that the Catholic would act in precisely the same way. He did not mean to deny that abuse to a certain extent prevailed; but what he contended was, that Roman Catholics, placed in similar circumstances—he, however, in saying this, meant no disrespect to the religion—would be found to misapply funds fully to the same extent they were now misapplied, and that it was not at all to be wondered at from the nature of toll itself and from the way in which it was managed, or rather mismanaged, it should be in some degree misapplied. He, therefore, thought that tolls should be altogether abolished.