HC Deb 11 March 1836 vol 32 cc205-7

On the Motion that this Bill be read a second time. Mr. George Frederick Young opposed the Motion. The Bill went to give power to a Company that had already too much. The Bill it was stated, would produce the effect of reducing the freights of vessels in the ports that the Company's vessels plied to, but he thought it very unfair that this Steam Company was to have all the advantages of increased power and monopoly, while their rivals would be prevented entering into fair competition, and freights would be lowered without any compensation to their injured opponents. He moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.

Mr. Wilks

could not sanction innovation and monopoly as this Company proposed. It started with a small capital, which it got leave to increase to 200,000l. and they now not only came to seek an increase of capital, but for leave to sue and be sued under a common seal, and to make contracts with the Post-office as a Corporate Company for the conveyance of the mails. The hon. Member in conclusion stated that he seconded the amendment.

Mr. O'Connell

did not think the incorporation should be acceded to unless it should be found useful, and if it was so he did not see why the Bill should be resisted. Two English companies were established, the first in 1813, called the British and Colonial, and another, the General Steam Company of London, in 1834. But the present company was an Irish one, which perhaps might be the ground of objection. The reason why this Act of incorporation was rendered necessary was to protect the individuals composing it from penalties that might arise under the Anonymous Partnership Act. It was very well known that in a short time Government would give up having packets of their own, because this company could carry the mails for one-half of the expense. Many Members of Parliament, himself among the rest, were members of this Company, every one of whom would forfeit a very large sum of money, besides their seat in that House, if this Company contracted with the Government for carrying the mails. The Company were ready to give up the clauses relative to carriage by land. Those points were for the Committee,

Mr. Robinson

would like to know from the President of the Board of Trade whether he thought the Bill ought to pass? if so he would vote for the second reading.

Mr. P. Thomson

said, there were provisions in the Bill to which he should most seriously object—those were the privilege of land carriage, and the power to borrow money on mortgage; but he did not object to their claims to sue and be sued by their secretary, or to their being incorporated, He should vote for the second reading and if those alterations were not made in Committee he should vote against the third reading.

Mr. Wallace

should vote against the second reading of the Bill. It was upon the principle no monopoly ought to be sanctioned by the House that he opposed the second reading. There was at present a small private company on the Clyde, whose vessels were going at the rate of twelve miles an hour to and from Liverpool, and they wanted no Act of incorporation to enable them to do this, which he believed was unprecedented.

Sir H. Parnell

supported the Bill, as one in which his constituents were deeply interested.

Colonel Perceval

trusted the House would allow the Bill to be read a second time, as the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, had acquiesced in its going to Committee, with a view to the removal of any clauses that might appear objectionable.

Mr. M. Stewart

thought this Bill gave very great privileges to this particular Company, and unless these were made general, it would be impossible for any other Company to compete with it. If, however, the objectionable clauses were to be struck out in Committee, he would not oppose the second reading. But it would only be on the distinct understanding that the only additional powers to be given to this Committee were, that partners being Members of Parliament should not hinder the Company from forming contracts for the conveyance of the mails. This Company had first obtained leave to raise a capital of 25,000l., then were empowered to raise 200,000l., and now he should certainly oppose their request to advance it to half a million.

Mr. Gillon

thought that a very unjust monopoly was intended to be established by this Bill. It was proposed to add large additional powers to those which had been formerly given. There was no asking how far this system of legislation should be carried. If the friends of the Company persevered in having the Bill read, he certainly should divide the House on that question, as he felt the non-liability clause was most injurious to the fair individual trader.

Lord Morpeth

said, it was well known that the Company had performed very great and signal services to Ireland, and this he thought a sufficient reason to extend to them an opportunity for future exertions. Any clauses that were objectionable might be altered or removed in Committee. On these grounds he asked the House to consent to the second reading.

The House divided on the second reading:—Ayes 163; Noes 59; Majority 104.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. Ebrington, Lord
Ainsworth, P. Elphinstone, H.
Bagshaw, J. Evans, G.
Bailey, J. Ewart, W.
Baldwin, H. Feilden, W.
Baring, F. Ferguson, Sir R.
Barnard, E. Finn, W.
Barneby, J. Filzgibbon, Hon. R.
Barry, G. S. Fitzsimon, C.
Beckett, Sir J. French, T.
Bennett, J. Goulburn, H.
Bentinck, Lord G. Graham, Sir J.
Bernal, R. Grattan, J.
Biddulph, R. Grote, G.
Blackburne, J. Gully, J.
Blake, M. J. Hardinge Sir H.
Blamire, W. Hardy, J.
Bodkin, J. Harland, W. C.
Bowes, J. Harvey, D. W.
Bradshaw, J. Hawes, B.
Brady, D. Heathcoat, J.
Bridgeman, H. Herries, Rt: Hon. J.
Brodie, W. Hindley, C.
Brotherton, J. Hogg, J.
Browne, Rt. Hon. D. Horsman
Bruen, H. Howard, E.
Buckingham, J. Howard, P.
Buller, Sir J. Hoy, J.
Butler, Hon. P. Humphery, J.
Byng, G. S. Jephson, C.
Canning, Sir S. Jones, T;
Chichester, J. Kirk, P.
Clive, E. Knight, G.
Cole, A. Lambton, H.
Collier, J. Lawson, A.
Conolly, E. Leader, J.
Crawford, W. S. Lefroy, T.
Crawford, W. Lemon, Sir C.
Dalbiac, Sir C. Lennox, Lord G.
Damer, Hon. G. Lennox, Lord A.
Divett, E. Lister, E.
Duncombe, T. Loch, J.
Eastnor, Lord Lushington, C.
Mackenzie, J. Rundle, J.
Mackinnon, W. Russell, Lord J.
M'Leod, R. Sandon, Lord
M'Taggart, J. Sanford, E.
Maher, J. Scholefield J.
Mahon, Lord Scott, J.
Mangles, J. Shaw, Rt. Hon. F.
Marsland, H. Sheil, R.
Martin, J. Sinclair, Sir George
Martin, T. Smith, V.
Methuen, P. Smith, B.
Meynell, H. Somerset, Lord G.
Molesworth, Sir W. Stanley, E.
Morpeth, Lord Stanley, Lord
Musgrave, Sir R. Stanley, E.
O'Brien, W. Steuart, R.
O'Connell, J. Strickland, Sir G.
O'Connell, M. Talbot, J.
O'Connell, M. J. Thomson, P.
O'Connell, Morgan Thompson, T. B.
O'Ferrall, R. Thornley, T.
O'Loghlin, M. Tooke, W.
Ord, W. Troubridge, Sir T.
Paget, J. Turner, W.
Palmer, R. Tynte, C.
Parrott, J. Verner, Colonel
Patten, J. Vesey, Hon. T.
Pattison, J. Villiers, C.
Pease, J. Vivian, C.
Peel, Sir R. Wakley, T.
Peel, W. Warburton, H.
Potter, R. Ward, H.
Powell, W. Wilmot, Sir John
Poyntz, W. Winnington, H.
Rice, S. Wrottesley, Sir. J.
Ridley, Sir M. Wynn, Williams
Robinson, G. Wyse, T.
Roche, Wm. TELLERS.
Roebuck, J. O'Connell
Rolfe, Sir Robert Perceval, Colonel
List of the NOES.
Agnew, Sir A. Gordon, W.
Angerstein, J. Hay, Sir J.
Arbuthnot, Hon. H. Hay, Sir A.
Blackstone, W. Henniker, Lord
Bowring, J. Hope, J.
Burrell, Sir C. Hume, J.
Callaghan, D. Irton, T.
Campbell, Sir J. Kearsley, H.
Chalmers, B. Long, W.
Chandos, Lord Lowther, J. H.
Chapman, A. Manners Lord C.
Chetwynd, W. Miles, P.
Chisholm, A. Mosley, Sir O.
Clerk, Sir George Murray, Rt. Hon. A.
Colborne, Ridley Oswald, J.
Darlington, Lord Parker, M.
Duffield, T. Parnell, Sir H.
Dunbar, G. Price, R.
Entwisle, J. Pringle, A.
Fergus, J. Pryme, G.
Ferguson, R. Rae, Sir W.
Forbes, W. Sheppard, T.
Forester, Hon. G. Somerset, Lord E.
Fremantle, Sir T. Stewart, Sir M.
Gaskell, J. Milnes Stewart, P.
Tennent, J. Wason, R.
Trevor, A. Wilbraham, R.
Tulk, C. Wilks, J.
Vere, Sir C. TELLERS.
Vyvyan, Sir R. Young, G. F.
Wallace, R Gillon, W. D.