HC Deb 03 March 1836 vol 31 cc1181-91
Sir Richard Musgrave

said, it was his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill for establishing County Boards in Ireland. His principal object in doing so was to afford increased employment for ablebodied labourers. He agreed with other hon. Members in thinking that employment for the able-bodied poor was full as necessary as relief for the helpless poor, and therefore he hoped to obtain leave to introduce the measure he had brought before the House. It was a separate measure, for men best acquainted with Ireland were of opinion that the question of employment ought to be treated separately. Under the English law, indeed, both of these subjects were included in one Act. It was found that the inferior food and strict discipline of the workhouse compelled labourers to seek for employment elsewhere. But such a system could not apply to the state of Ireland; for there the labourer was already reduced to food of the lowest description, and the want of employment was so great that in too many instances the labourer was idle during great part of the year. It was, therefore, most prudent to provide employment, instead of giving the able-bodied labourer a claim for relief in the first instance. Many plans had been proposed for the cultivation of waste lands, the establishment of poor colonies, and for other purposes. Whether these were profitable speculations remained to be proved. To him it appeared safer and more useful to improve existing institutions for carrying on public works, and thus to extend the demand for labour. Where good communications had been opened through waste lands, improvement and cultivation had almost invariably been extended by private, enterprise to every species of soil capable of yielding a profitable return. He proposed, then, in the first instance, to substitute County Boards for Grand Juries for local taxation. In doing so, it was not his intention to deprive gentlemen of property of that control which they ought to exercise over county taxation. Under this Bill men of property would form the County Board. He did not seek for any violent change, for he was too sensible of the value of such local institutions. He believed that without them the affairs of any country could not be properly ad-ministered. Similar local institutions had for a long period existed in Holland and in other countries, and the best Dutch writers had attributed the wealth of Holland principally to these institutions. But he was anxious to apply the principle of representation to these bodies, and public opinion was decidedly favourable to such a change. From long experience he was well acquainted with the operation of the Grand Jury laws. But still he would not have ventured to undertake the difficult task resulting from the present motion if he had not been enabled to take advan- tage of the labours of two friends of his, who brought to the subject great legal knowledge and great experience in the affairs of Ireland. He alluded to Mr. George Harrison, of Lincoln's Inn, and to a relative of his own, by whom this Bill had been drawn, up. The principal clauses had been printed and distributed some years since, and every useful suggestion was respectfully attended to, After all means had been adopted in order to render the measure unobjectionable, the Bill had been completed, and last Session had been read a first time and printed, by order of the House. This course of proceeding was not only calculated to produce an useful measure, but was also respectful as regarded that House. The power of nominating the Grand Jury, as exercised by the High Sheriff, was most objectionable. It was an anomaly at variance with the first principles of the British Constitution, which did not allow that any individual should exercise such a degree of control over public taxation. There was, indeed, an appeal to a Petit Jury from the decision of the Grand Jury; but the party traversing must employ counsel, agent, and witnesses, at the assizes, and cannot, even if he succeed, recover any part of the expense which he thus incurs. So various, too, are the views taken by petty juries of the utility of public works, that this tribunal is very uncertain and unsatisfactory. To give the High Sheriff, in the first instance, the unjustifiable power of nomination, and then to endeavour to correct this evil by an appeal to a Petit Jury, appeared to be a very unwise administration of public works. The Bill proposed, then, that the entire power and duty of taxation for local public purposes, be vested exclusively in a County Board, to be elected by the rate-payers. The rate-payers are to meet in each barony, in order to elect a certain number of persons. Out of the entire number so elected in all the baronies, the High Sheriff is to select the County Board. The County Board is to consist of not more than sixty nor less than thirty members; and is to continue in office for twelve months, until the succeeding Board is appointed. The members of this body are to possess a certain qualification. At their first meeting the County Board is to appoint a Committee of Superintendence, for superintending all public works and establishments within the county. The members of this Committee are to sit and vote with the Magistrates at Special Sessions, and their powers and duties in other respects are defined by this Bill. At present, certain ratepayers sit and vote with the Magistrates at Sessions, by which provision it was evidently intended to establish a check on the decision of the Grand Jury. But Grand Juries have so construed the law that they now often actually select the rate-payers from amongst their own friends and tenants. To substitute the Committee of Superintendence for these rate-payers will, I trust, appear to be an improvement. The Chairman of the County Board is to be an officer appointed by Government. In Ireland the Chairman of the Quarter-Sessions is a barrister, nominated by the Crown, and the greatest public benefit has resulted from this regulation. It is necessary, on every account, but particularly if public works are to be extended, that the Chairman of the County Board should, by his legal knowledge, be able to guide that body in the discharge of their duty. The foreman, as the law is now administered, is too often appointed without any regard to his being qualified by knowledge of the statutes under which he is to act, and the results are great delay and public loss in transacting the business of the Grand Jury. All applications for public works are to go before the Special Sessions, as at present, for investigation. A report of the proceedings of these Sessions, with all papers and documents, is to be transmitted for final decision to the County Board. The laws relating to the civil duties of Grand Juries are so numerous and so intricate, that some of the most eminent counsel in Ireland will not venture to give an opinion on matters connected with these statutes, unless the particular section and chapter be pointed out by the solicitor who consults them. It is not surprising, therefore, that Grand Juries should not readily comprehend such complicated laws. The last Grand Jury Act requires that the particular section, authorising a presentment, should be cited in each application. Any person who has attended Special Sessions must know how difficult it is to comply with this provision—to select the proper sections amongst a hundred Acts, containing clauses without any arrangement or order of succession, and relating to a vast variety of subjects. The result of such a state of law is, that many gentlemen are deterred altogether from attending Sessions, and many important public works are obstructed or prevented from being-executed. A distressed population is thus deprived of employment, and is forced to seek relief in England and in other countries. By the Bill which he proposed to introduce, the provisions of this confused mass of laws were consolidated, and various amendments were introduced, and the entire was written in plain, intelligible language. This, he trusted, would be found to be an useful improvement. The Board is to appoint a bank for the receipt of the taxes; and thus losses from the insolvency of treasurers would be avoided, An alteration is proposed in the collection and appointment of county rates, by which the landlord is made liable to a certain portion of these taxes. This provision is in accord with a recommendation of the Committee of 1830. The landlord, as Grand Juror, exercises the power of settling the amount of tax to be paid by his tenant in effecting permanent improvements in the way of public works. After a short lease the landlord can step in and take advantage of his tenant's expenditure. Of late years county rates have risen greatly in amount. In Waterford, within the recollection of many persons, the rates have risen from 8l, or 10l. to 15l., 20l., and even 25l. per ploughland. This rise has certainly been accompanied with great improvement in the roads and public works. But it is unjust and unmerciful to lay the entire burden of expense on the rack-rented tenantry. In taking a lease no tenant could have expected such a rise in the amount of county rates. In order to remedy this injustice, the Bill proposes that when a valuation has taken place, the county treasurer shall in his warrant state the poundage on the annual value payable by each denomination of land. And then every party having paid rates directly or indirectly, may, out of the rent next payable by such party for the same property, make a deduction not exceeding 3s. 4d. of such poundage, on the annual rent thus payable, as shall have been used for ascertaining the rates in consequence whereof the deduction shall be claimed. Suppose the occupier's tenement is valued at 100l. per annum, and his rent be also 100l. If he pays a poundage of 1s. rate, he can deduct a poundage of 9d. from 100l. vents; that is to say, if he pays 5l. he can deduct 3l. 15s, from the next rent payable by him. But suppose that a tenant, having a holding valued at 100l., pays a rent of only 20l., and that his county rate is a poundage of 1s. on the value of his farm, he can deduct a poundage of 9d. on the 20l. rent; that is to say, he pays 5l. rate, but he can deduct from his landlord only 15s. The clause is so drawn that, under it, every person will pay rates in proportion to his interest in land. A 'considerable portion of the Bill relates to the mode of obtaining compensation for land taken or injured for public purposes. In England the amount of compensation is at once ascertained by the verdict of a Jury; but in Ireland the owner of land can only obtain compensation by entering a traverse to the presentment of the Grand Jury. The traverse is then tried at the Assizes, and the amount of compensation settled by a Petit Jury; the costs of this proceeding are paid by the tenant, who has to employ counsel and agents, and to send forward witnesses at his own expense. He had known occupiers to lose a considerable portion of their land in consequence of a new road being made through the best part of their farms without receiving any compensation whatsoever. The costs of proceeding would probably exceed the amount of compensation, and they were thus deterred from obtaining justice. As a remedy, it is proposed that the Committee of Superintendence may settle the amount of compensation by agreement with the owner. If the owner refuses the amount offered, the compensation is to be determined by a Jury, as in England. If the Jury award a smaller sum than that offered by the Committee, the costs of the verdict are to be deducted from the amount of compensation, but otherwise they are to be paid by the County Board. By another part of the Bill it is proposed to give the County Board power to determine what tolls are are to be taken or paid for the use of any public work executed by a contractor. Under the Grand Jury Laws, at present, the Grand Jury possessed a power of settling the amount of tolls in certain cases, and the Bill proposed an extension of these powers to be exercised by the County Board. He had endeavoured to explain the principal clauses of the Bill, and he believed it was not necessary to eater into a more lengthened detail on the pre- sent occasion. The other clauses could be more readily understood when the Bill was printed. The schedules contained numerous forms suited to the various provisions to which they referred. The forms in particular relating to the conveyance of lands, would be found to be useful and sufficient. He would now move for "leave to bring in a Bill for the administration of certain civil affairs of a local nature by County Boards in Ireland."

Mr. Wyse

rose with peculiar pleasure to second the motion of his hon. Friend. From the first moment he had held a seat in that House he had never ceased, whenever the opportunity occurred, to impress upon the Legislature and the Government the necessity of a radical re-organization of the whole local taxing machinery of Ireland. So early as 1831, in resolutions read to the House, he had strongly pressed upon the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), then engaged in a reform of the grand jury laws, the imperative duty of the government to look into the source of the evils of which all complained, and to substitute representative for the nominated irresponsible bodies which governed the contributions of the people. He had then proposed county boards, acting in conjunction, and under the superintendence of a general board of administration in Dublin, and that again with a committee on Irish affairs of the House of Commons, and charged not only with the local management of public works, but also of charters and education. The government of that day preferred patching up the old system, with the short-sighted policy of most of our governments, to going largely and boldly, like true statesmen, into the whole question. The result then prophesied has since come to pass: the measure, ill-devised, ill-arranged, resting on principles false and unjust, and acting by machinery the most heterogeneous and opposed, has only added new abuses to the old, and rendered reform more than ever necessary. Honourable Members on the other side of the House have a horror of local institutions; they would centralize every thing, draw every thing to the capital leave heart alone, and deprive the members of all right and power of action in the community. Centralization was some times, and, to a certain extent, necessary It cherished, directed, gave energy, intelligence, and uniformity to administration in every part of a state. But it should not be pushed too far—it should not absorb— it should only have its proper share, and no more, in the system. Local government was not less requisite; and any statesman who thought it expedient to exclude it from his plan, only proved that he was grossly ignorant of the first principles not of liberty only, but of policy, and condemned his own awkwardness and incompetency, rather than proved any disqualification in the country itself. After the speeches heard from the opposite Benches a few nights back, he supposed the remedy proposed by hon. Members for the abuses of Grand Juries would be to annihilate them at once. This would be only consistent; but such hints had never been heard. All parties, whether they thought towns entitled to the management of their own affairs or not, admitted that counties ought to have that power. Grand Juries had always, as an institution, been supported in that House. The question then was not, whether there should be local management, but by what manner and by what bodies it should be exercised. He (Mr. W.) admired the English Constitution, not as a shadow, but as a reality. The principle of that Constitution was, that no man should be taxed but by his own consent. If this were not the principle, then the whole of our Revolution was a rebellion, Hampden a traitor, and this House of Commons an usurpation. If true in one case, why should it be false in another? If the King could not exact sixpence from his poorest subject without the consent of the people, through their representatives, with what consistency could a Grand Jury, the creature of a High Sheriff, he again the creature of the Crown, pretend to such a power? Was there one constitution for the payer of the King's excise, and another for the payer of the Grand Jury tax? Were they not all British subjects, and all entitled to true British rights? This monstrous grievance had been felt, and checks found necessary; but they were checks, not concessions. The noble Lord, who detests every form of election, recurred to every expedient to avoid it. What was his Grand Jury law? He left the Grand Jurors to be chosen, as of old, by the Sheriff, and then brings in the rate-payers in person to check them. The result was obvious. The two elements, instead of mingling, came into collision; the old predilections of Grand Jurors remain, and the ratepayers, but partially instructed, are left with their ignorauce to fight them out. It is prejudice against pretension, and narrow views against selfish ones. The rate payer would allow his hedges to tumble, and his roads to become impassable, rather than give sixpence additional tax. This would have been obviated at once by election. The right of the rate-payer would have been preserved, and the working and intelligent men of the country would be those who would ultimately have to decide. What then do I propose should be substituted to this crude effort at legislation? That the Grand Juries should be elected? By no means. Grand Juries are judicial bodies—they should no more be elected than Petit Juries—than Judges themselves. They are emanations from the Crown, and it is right their nomination should rest in its hands. But it is not right they should have the rights they have. Their present powers were gradual usurpations, sanctioned indeed by the law—but who were the law makers?—Grand Jurors themselves. They were deemed the fortresses of the aristocracy and the ascendancy, as against the people and Popery; no privilege too exclusive, no power too exorbitant, could be confided to such hands. But this was still tyranny, however it might be useful to the temporary purposes of a party. They should be stripped of those powers, and brought back again to their simple judicial state. But to whom should they be transferred? Not to the Crown, but to the party to whom they strictly belonged—the people. The people who paid the taxes had a right to manage those—consent to, and control these taxes. This could not be done in mass; it could only be effected through a representative body—that body was the County Board. What were the objections against such an institution? Did they fear the result of frequent elections? It had been found that the very frequency dulled their effect, library, and other committees, did not produce the tumult and dissension apprehended. If dread existed, let the elections be rare—let them be tried at first every five years. Was the influence of demagogues on popular passions a subject of fear? Let there be a qualification of residence and property, as for Members of Parliament, and Magistrates at Road Sessions. Were popular ignorance and discontent likely to produce injurious effects in their selection of members? Why, then, intrust them with the choice of Members of Parliament? Were the affairs discussed in this House, and decided, too, of less moment than those likely to engage the attention of a County Board? Talk, indeed, of discontent. A more certain mode of satisfying a country than allowing it to busy itself about its own affairs could not be devised. Why, the very reason there was so much political agitation was precisely because the people were thrown upon it by their rulers —because they were not allowed by their present institutions to discuss their own affairs at home. He (Mr. W.), for one, did not fear enlarging in this particular the powers and functions of the people; he thought they could scarcely be enlarged enough. He would give to this Board, the whole administration of its charities, works, and education, and divide it into three Sections or Committees, who should have their permanent Sub-committees, as Grand Juries now have their Committees of Superintendents of Gsols, &c., who act during the interval from one sitting to the other. The Grand Jury is a fleeting and irresponsible body—this would be a permanent and a responsible one. It would be an excellent school for training to public business, whether in the quality of elector, candidate or public functionary. It would suppress suspicion, and what the people contributed would be contributed cheerfully. It would eventually be by their own vote. But there are considerations which seem scarcely to be felt, or even understood, in this House. When almost every other country has adopted similar institutions—whilst it is well known they flourish under all Governments— whilst they are to be found in Denmark, and Austria, and Russia, as well as France, Belgium &c., we affect to consider them as visionary follies of Radicalism, without philosophy or experience to vouch for their utility. Within this very last year they have been granted, in the form of provincial councils, by Austria to her lowland Venetian subjects; and they have done more to assuage that feeling of bitter hostility than even the introduction of her education system itself. But this House, with its usual amour-propre, disdains to read such lessons, and looks only to itself. Be it so. It is a consolation to the advocates of this measure to find that even since last year, it has made immense progress, and despite of the ignorance of many and the apathy of more— despite of the anti-constitutional principles of the opposite Members, and the still more censurable inconsistency of Members on this side—from which blame he was far from excluding Ministers themselves— the time was fast approaching when it would be the law, not of Ireland only, but of every part of the British empire.

Viscount Morpeth

doubted whether the Legislature was prepared to adopt so sweeping an alteration in the system of Grand-Jury Laws as the present Bill proposed. Without pledging himself, however, either to the principle of the Bill, or any of its details, he would offer no opposition to the hon. Member's embodying his suggestions in the Bill, which he proposed to lay before the House.

Leave was given to bring in the Bill.—