HC Deb 07 July 1836 vol 34 cc1314-7
Mr. Poulter

rose to move, that the Order of the Day for going into Committee on the Poole Corporation Bill be read.

Sir George Clerk

objected to the House adopting this course. He understood from what fell from the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) at an earlier part of the evening, that the whole of the Bills relating to subjects connected with Scotland, that stood on the orders for that day, should be gone through, before any other business was proceeded with. Discussion on business relating to Scotland was very rare, and he thought it would be very hard on the Members from that part of the country, if they were not allowed to be proceeded with. He trusted that the House would act upon the understanding which had been come to, and proceed with those Bills which the Lord Advocate had expressed his de termination of getting through during the present Session.

Mr. Poulter

said, the noble Lord, the Secretary of State, and leader of that House, had distinctly told him that he (Mr. Poulter) should be permitted to proceed with the Poole Corporation Bill, when the Scotch Bills, which had been under consideration, were disposed of, that being the rotation in which the Bill in question stood on the orders. He must say, that he considered it rather strange that those hon. Gentlemen opposite, who expressed such a strong anxiety with regard to those Scotch Bills, had themselves endeavoured to prevent the House proceeding with them, by having the House counted, as it had been, at an earlier period of the evening, although it did so turn out that there were more than forty Members present. He should persevere in his motion.

Sir Edward Knatchbull

was quite sure that the counting of the House did not originate with those who wished to proceed with these Bills; neither he nor those around him participated in that motion, and surely it was going rather too far to charge that side of the House with a wish to obstruct the progress of the public business. He did not know who the hon. Member was who had moved that the House be counted, but it was too much to impute to those Members for Scotland who wished these Bills to be proceeded with, that they had any desire to impede the public business, to get through which they had attended under the express understanding which had been come to with respect to these measures. The Members on the Opposition side of the House could know nothing of what passed privately between the hon. Member for Shaftesbury and the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell). The noble Lord had said, the Scotch Bills were to be proceeded with first; and on his way down to the House, he had met several hon. Members, who had told him that such was the case.

The Lord Advocate

had understood that he was to proceed with his two first Bills. With regard to his other Bills, whether they should come on or not, in preference to that of the hon. Member for Shaftesbury, he should leave for the right hon. the Speaker to decide. He should wish to insist on his right to go on, if he was in titled to do so.

Mr. Cutlar Fergusson

certainly under stood that the whole of the Scotch Bills were to be proceeded with; and he must say, it would be rather hard upon Scotch Members, who had been awaiting the discussion of these measures nearly the whole of the Session, if that understanding was not to be adhered to. His understanding was, that the previous discussion related to what question should come on when the Scotch Bills were disposed of.

Mr. Williams Wynn

said, the rule was, that Orders of the Day were completely within the control of the House. At the same time the practice had been, that on one day in the week, the orders were to be taken in the rotation in which they stood in the paper, but on the others that the Government should have the priority in bringing on any business connected with the legislation of the country generally. He must complain of the injustice of the House being led to believe that business of a particular description should come on, and then that they should be told that there was a private understanding between an hon. Member and the leader of the House, that other business was to be proceeded with. He thought the House had also a right to complain that notice had not been given, that it was not intended to give the preference to any Government measure that evening.

Mr. Jarvis

said, that the object of the hon. Member for Shaftesbury was to further the Poole Corporation Bill a stage. The proceeding would be almost a matter of form, because they were not called upon to rediscuss the principle of the Bill.

Mr. Goulburn

had understood that the Scotch business was to come on that evening; and he had met several hon. Members who had left the House under that impression. He thought it would be most unfair to the Scotch Members to take any other business.

Mr. Wakley

said, the noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in the early part of the evening, had stated distinctly, that the Government had the right to take their orders first, but they had waived that right in favour of the hon. Member for Shaftesbury.

Sir George Clerk

said, that the under standing certainly was, that if the remaining Scotch Bills on the list were not gone into, they would be abandoned for the present Session. Such was his impression upon putting questions to the Lord Advocate in the early part of the evening.

Mr. Gillon

contended, that if the Scotch Bills were not proceeded with on that evening, the Scotch Members would be very ill-used.

Sir William Rae

said, he had stopped in town in order to be present to take a share in the discussion on the Scotch Bills; he had made inquiry at the Board of Trade, and had been assured that the Committee on the Lighthouses Bill would be deferred, in order to give precedence to the Scotch business.

Mr. Poulter

moved, that the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Poole Corporation Bill he read.

Sir William Rae

moved as an amendment, the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Report on the Small Debts (Scotland) Bill.

The House divided on the question, that the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the question: Ayes 43; Noes 32— Majority 11.

The House again divided on the original question, namely, that the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Poole Corporation Bill be now read: Ayes 33; Noes 57—Majority 24.

The Small Debts Scotland Bill was, on the motion of the Lord Advocate, recommitted.

List of the AYES on the First Division.
Aglionby, H. A. Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.
Barnard, E. G. Pelham, hon. C. A.
Bowring, Dr. Philips, G. R.
Brocklehurst, J. Ponsonby, hon. W.
Brodie, W. B. Potter, R.
Brotherton, J. Rundle, J.
Buller, C. Sanford, E. A.
Chalmers, P. Smith, R. V.
Chichester, J. P. Stanley, E.
Clive, E. B. Steuart, R.
D'Eyncourt, rt. hn. C. T. Strutt, E.
Donkin, Sir R. Tancred, H. W.
Dunlop, J. Thompson, Colonel
Ewart, W. Thornely, T.
Fellowes, hn. Newton Wakley, Thomas
Hector, C. J. Walker, R.
Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J. Warburton, H.
Hume, J. Wood, Alderman
Jervis, J. Wrightson, W. D.
Marshall, W. Young, G. F.
Marsland, H. TELLERS.
Murray, rt. hn. J. A. Poulter, J.
O'Ferrall, R. M. Tulk, C. A.
List of the NOES.
Agnew, Sir A. Hoy, J. B.
Arbuthnot, hon. H. Hughes, W. H.
Balfour, T. Johnston, A.
Baring F. T. Knatchbull, right hon. Sir E.
Chihsolm, A. W.
Dillwyn, L. W. Mackenzie, S.
Egerton, Lord F. Maule, hon. Fox
Feilden, William Plumptre, J. P.
Fielden, John Pringle, A.
Forbes, W. Richards, R.
Fremantle, Sir T. Rickford, W.
Gaskell, J. Milnes Twiss, H.
Gillon, W. D. Wallace, R.
Gordon, hon. W. Wilson, H.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Wynn, rt. hon. C. W.
Grey, Sir George TELLERS.
Hastie, A. Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.
Hay, Sir J. Clerk, Sir George
List of the AYES on the Second Division.
Aglionby, H. A. Philips, G. R.
Attwood, T. Ponsonby, hon. W.
Bagshaw, J. Potter, Richard
Barnard, E. G. Rundle, J.
Bowring, Dr. Sanford, E. A.
Brocklehurst, J. Sharpe, General
Brodie, W. B. Strutt, E.
Byng, G. rt. hn. G. S. Tancred, H. W.
Clive, E. B. Thompson, Colonel
D'Eyncourt, right hn. C. T. Thornely, Thomas
Trelawny, Sir W.
Donkin, Sir R. Tulk, C. A.
Ewart. W. Wakley, Thomas
Fellowes, hn. Newton Walker, R.
Hector, C. J. Wood, Alderman
Marshall, W.
Marsland, H. TELLERS.
O'Ferrall, R. M. Poulter, J.
Pelham, hon. C. A. Jervis, J.
List of the NOES.
Agnew, Sir A. Hay, Sir John
Arbuthnot, hon. H. Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.
Balfour, Thomas Hodges, Thomas Law
Baring, F. T. Hoy, John Barlow
Benett, J. Hughes, W.
Bonham R. F Hume, Joseph
Brotherton, J. Johnson, A.
Buller, C. Knatchbull, right hon. Sir Edward
Chalmers, P.
Chandos, Marquess of Knight, H. G.
Chichester, J. P. Mackenzie, S.
Chisholm, A. W. Maule, hon. Fox
Dalmeny, Lord Murray, rt. hn. J. A.
Dillwyn, L. W. Plumptre, J. P.
Dunlop, J. Pringle, A.
Ebrington, Lord Rae, right hon. Sir W.
Egerton, Lord F. Richards, R.
Feilden, W. Rickford, W.
Fergusson, rt. hn. C. Smith, R. V.
Fielden, J. Stanley, E. J.
Forbes, W. Steuart, R.
French, F. Twiss, H.
Gaskell, J. M. Wallace, R.
Gillon, W. D. Warburton, H.
Gladstone, Thomas Wilson, R.
Gordon, hon. W. Wynn, rt. hn. C. W.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Young, G. F.
Grey, Sir George TELLERS
Hamilton, G. A.
Hardy, J. Clerk, Sir George
Hastie, A. Fremantle, Sir T.