§ Lord Clements, in moving for certain papers relative to the projected improvements of the river Shannon, observed that the right hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), during the preceding Session, had stated as a reason why he had been unable to bring forward the Government plans with respect to this undertaking; the great pressure of other business, by which his attention was altogether occupied. It was owing to this that the Bill which passed last Session, for the purpose of authorising certain preparatory proceedings to be taken relative to the landed proprietors whose estates would be benefited by the projected alterations, was deferred until the month of August; but he could not conceive that there was any excuse for the delay in appointing Commissioners to act under that Bill; nor that there was any reason why the Commission should be restricted to the mere purpose of ascertaining the amounts to be levied on the landed proprietors, or why the Commissioners should not at once proceed to carry into execution the projects of improvement. These several delays, together with those which might be expected, would postpone the matter to an indefinite period. Besides, the Government of this country was not fit to deal with matters of this description, they being rather of a local than of a general nature. It was for this reason that he felt some surprise at the Government having declined to receive or to sanction the plans of those parties who, being interested in the work, and who, being local proprietors, must of necessity be better able to suggest and to carry into effect the improvement required, and his surprise was the greater when he considered that the Government would have been furnished with these plans gratuitously. He did not mean to deny the fitness of the Commissioners to execute the task which had devolved upon them, but he considered that five engineers of such eminence as those named in the Commission were too many to appoint for such a purpose, and the only result to be looked for would be that some plan of great magnificence and grandeur would be suggested, which the House of Commons would never feel itself authorised to grant money to execute, 509 and then the projected improvement of the river would be altogether dropped and lost sight of. The public, he felt assured, would have been much better satisfied if only one of these engineers had been appointed. In conclusion, he begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could hold out any prospect that the work would be finished during the term of the natural lives of the present generation? It had been promised to Ireland ever since the Union that the great river of that kingdom should be made available for her commerce, but as yet that promise had been evaded and postponed. The noble Lord then moved for a copy of the instructions to the Commissioners appointed under the 5th and 6th Wm. 4th., c. 67, for the improvement of the river Shannon, with the date of their appointment, and the date of their first meeting in their capacity of Commissioners.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he had no difficulty whatever in granting at once the papers asked for by the noble Lord; at the same time he must express his surprise at some of the remarks which had fallen from his noble Friend. The charge which the noble Lord had brought against him was, that he was overcautious, over-scrupulous in the steps which he took in granting away the public money. He would acknowledge that he had been cautious, and he would tell the noble Lord why. He had thought it necessary before the grant of any money was proposed or sanctioned by the Government, that the House should be put in possession of the plans of the undertaking, and of the amount of local levies to be made in support of it. He was perfectly aware, as the noble Lord had stated, that he could have had plenty of plans for nothing at all from local parties who were interested in the scheme, but that sort of information and project it did not suit the Government to accept, or to go to work upon. He, therefore, sought the whole profession of engineers to obtain men who were qualified by their attainments and high character to enter upon the examination of the localities, and to project the works, and who were, moreover, free from local bias or partialities, and the names of the Commissioners would be found to justify his choice. The Government were bound in the most peculiar manner, after the signal failure of some similar works, to protect the public against loss or mis- 510 application of the money granted, and also to prevent the nation at large from being made to pay large sums of money for the purpose of serving the interested views of the parties concerned.
Mr. French remarked, that the right hon. Gentleman had studiously avoided noticing any of the questions put to him by the noble Lord, and had not by any means satisfactorily accounted for the delay complained of. The noble Lord had inquired if there was any prospect of the Report of the Commissioners being presented in sufficient time, to enable the works for the improvement of the navigation of this river to be commenced in the course of the ensuing summer, a question of the utmost importance, but to which the right hon. Gentleman had not given any answer, nor had they been told how it was proposed the Grand Canal should be dealt with. He (Mr. French) had no hesitation in avowing he was one of those Irish Members who, in common with the noble Lord, was deeply dissatisfied with the way in which this important question had been delayed. That dissatisfaction arose solely for the sake of his constituents and the public. He had neither personal nor family interest in it. He would not, however, charge his Majesty's Ministers collectively with the delay which had taken place—a delay which was universally complained of, but would at once attribute it to its proper quarter—to the right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he trusted the House would agree with him this assertion was neither unfair nor incorrect, when he should have briefly recalled to their minds the circumstances which had taken place. No indication being shown on the part of Government of an intention to bring forward any measure for the improvement of the Shannon, notwithstanding the various reports both of engineers and Committees of this House, the noble Lord, the Member for Calne, felt it his duty to call the attention of the House to the state of this river, and to move an address to his Majesty on the 2nd. of May last. In the course of the debate the right hon. Gentleman, on the part of Government, undertook to introduce a measure for the improvement of its navigation. On this understanding no division was called for, and the subject was left in his hands. Considerable time, however, elapsed, and no steps were taken to carry this promise into effect. He and 511 several other Members felt it their duty to urge its fulfilment; at last, in the month of August, a Bill was introduced, falling, indeed, far short of what they had reason to expect, and what the interest of both countries demanded. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that Bill was opposed, and that he was only enabled to carry it, chiefly because the greater portion of the navigation of the river was in the hands of Government. In this he differed most materially from that right hon. Gentleman. It was, indeed, true that out of the entire House some three or four Members had expressed a species of qualified dissent; they were then present, and if he underrated their force they could say so; but he maintained that, even without the assistance of Government, the question would have been carried by an overwhelming majority. How could it be otherwise? The improvement of this river was of equal importance to both countries—the interest of both nations were identified. But even after this Bill, such as it was, was carried, care was taken it should not be acted upon; it received the royal assent on the 31st of August, and had the Commissioners been appointed in September, their report would then be ready to act upon. Their duty was not one by any means likely to occupy much lime, being merely to settle what compensation, if any, was to be given to the owners of milts, weirs, or any other description of property it might be deemed advisable to remove; no information was required as to the nature of the improvements, the estimate of their expenses, or the different levels of the river; these had already been ascertained, and reported on by Mr. Rhodes. The right hon. Gentleman has acknowledged that the appointment of the Commission rested with him; how then, perfectly aware as he must be of the importance of the subject, would he account for four months having elapsed without the Commissioners being named, by which time the period for their labours had gone past, the floods having risen—it being impossible for them to enter on their valuations while the river was swelled by the winter rains? The whole project was necessarily postponed for a season, owing, as he before slated, entirely to the conduct of the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Although he was most anxious to enter on the main question of the state of this river, he Felt it would not be fair to 512 trespass on the indulgence of the House on the present occasion, which was merely a motion for a paper, which had been granted; but it was not his intention to let the subject drop here, as, should such a petty estimate as that of last Session be again brought forward for the Upper Shannon, that portion of the river in the hands of Government, the state of the navigation of which they ought to be ashamed of, he should feel it his duty to call the attention of the House to the navigation of this river, as affecting the interests of both countries.
§ Mr. Humecontended that the right hon. Gentleman had acted with extreme propriety and prudence in taking measures to ascertain the value of the improvements upon the estates of the local proprietors of the river Shannon before he proceeded to propose any grant of public money. In fact, no Chancellor of the Exchequer could have acted with more wisdom than the right hon. Gentleman had done in this case. He would venture to take the defence of the right hon. Gentleman on his shoulders, and he was sure that the right hon. Gentleman need not defend himself.
§ Colonel Conollyentirely agreed in the assertion that preliminary precautions were highly necessary, and that the steps taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were quite prudent and right. He begged to suggest, however, that whatever sum of money was granted on loan for this undertaking, it should be lent at the lowest possible rate of interest, as upon that it partly depended whether the capitalists of Ireland would consent to undertake the projected improvements. In fact, such a course had been pursued by the Government in lending money to Scotland for the purpose of national improvements, and Ireland had an equal claim to the consideration of the nation.
Mr. Smith O'Brienregretted that the Commissioners had not been nominated immediately upon the royal assent being given to the Bill of last Session; he must, however, add, that the gentlemen who composed the body of Commissioners answered the right hon. Gentleman's description.
§ Mr. Warburtonsaid, that a distinct understanding was come to with respect to the grant for the river Shannon improvements, that until a survey had been made, and the local improvements and benefits conferred thereby upon the proprietors of 513 the river banks had been estimated, and some terms or understanding come to with those proprietors, no proposal should be brought before the House for the grant of any specific sum.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was quite right as to the time at which the Commissioners were appointed, for if they had taken the survey at the time mentioned—namely, in August or September,—the river Shannon, which was then at its lowest, and consequently the average height of water, or the levels of the river could not be ascertained. He certainly thought, with the gallant Member for Donegal, that the proposed grant ought to be lent at the lowest possible rate of interest.
§ Motion agreed to.