ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 18 May 1835)

§ Colonel Leith Hay
said, that in rising to bring forward the Ordnance Estimates it was not his intention to trespass at any length on the attention of the House. These Estimates had, as they all knew, been drawn out under peculiar circumstances. 1188 They had been prepared by the late Government, and it had been his duty since his accession to office to investigate them thoroughly. He had carefully gone through the various items contained in them, and the conclusion to which he had come was, that they had been drawn up with equal regard to the safety of the country and to the principles of economy. He was perfectly satisfied that in the preparation of these Estimates both these important considerations had been duly attended to, and in his opinion, therefore, the Estimates were such as the House ought to agree to. Since last year no material alteration had taken place in the Estimates connected with this department of the public service, and, consequently, no very great saving in the amount formerly voted had been effected in the present Estimates. The sum saved appeared small, but, under all the circumstances, and leaving out of the question a number of considerations—leaving out of the question, as they must do, the military establishment of the Ordnance—he must say that the expenditure had been reduced as much as possible, as much as, under existing circumstances, it could be with propriety and a due regard to the safety of the country. During the period Sir James Kemp was at the head of the Ordnance, from 1830 to 1834, upwards of six hundred offices connected with the civil department were abolished, and by that means a saving of 46,642l. 2s. 7d. was effected to the public. In the course of the same interval a reduction of 8,402l. was made in the salaries of officers, and, besides these, other savings were effected which, in the whole, amounted to as much as 59,000l. The business of the dépôt in Tooley-street had been transferred to the Tower and Pall Mall, and the vote which he meant to propose for defraying the expenses of the establishments at the Tower, Pall Mall, and Dublin, was only 72,193l. Besides the transfer of the dépôt in Tooley-street, other changes had taken place in the Ordnance department. In June last the Commissariat had been transferred to it by the Treasury, and of course the business of the Commissariat was now performed by the Ordnance. The Commissariat Estimate for the present year was 161,083l.; but to this a large sum was to be added for bread and meat for the Government barracks. It might be thought perhaps, that by these changes great additional ex- 1189 pense would be incurred in providing for the management of this extensive department; but that was not the case. The additional expense did not exceed 964l, so that, in fact, the management was effected at the rate of about 7s. 10d. per cent. This, he was sure, could be considered extravagant by no one; for since last year a new arrangement had taken place respecting the establishment in the Australian colonies, which had previously been under the management of the Commissariat. Of course this arrangement was a cause of increasing the expense.—Since the last Estimates were brought before the House a statute had passed for regulating the affairs of the East-India Company. In consequence of that Act the Government of the Island of St. Helena had been transferred from the East-India Company to the Crown; and an Ordnance establishment had, of course, been sent out there. This last circumstance occasioned a further alteration in the estimates of the present year as compared with those of the past; but the removal of the great dépôt in Tooley-street would perhaps more than compensate for any seeming difference between the Estimates of the two years. The House would at once see that the saving was not present but prospective; and that, although the expenditure at the present time swelled the Estimate, a diminution must ultimately result to the public from the arrangements which had been made. In the course of six weeks or two months the whole of the establishment in Tooley-street would be removed to the Tower, and that would occasion a reduction in the expenditure. With regard to the barrack regulations which it would be his duty to bring under the consideration of the House, he must say that everything that was proper had been done to keep up those establishments in Great Britain, Ireland, and the Colonies, with as little expense as possible. But he must, at the same time, state that the Government had it in contemplation, before the next Session, to effect some alteration in those regulations, with a view to still further reducing the cost of the management of barrack establishments.—He trusted that this would be done before the Estimates of the next year were brought forward, and that an additional saving would be thereby effected. On the Estimates of this year, as compared to those of the last year, there was a diminu- 1190 tion of 4,640l.; but the real difference between them must be considered with reference to the transfer of the Commissariat to the Ordnance. Last year no sum was taken in the Ordnance Estimates for the Commissariat, but the sum then voted for that service amounted to 134,785l. The sum intended to be taken now was 161,083l. The difference, however, (26,298l.) was occasioned by the expense of forage; but, in considering the two Estimates, these items really should not be taken into account. The charge for forage was 26,298l., and to this was to be added 1,656l., the day saved by the leap year, and the salary of the Treasury of the Ordnance, which would give a further reduction of 1,000l. and these deductions, therefore, would, taken together, make an actual difference between the present and the last estimates of 32,594l. It was necessary that he should state, previous to moving the first vote, that an alteration had taken place with regard to the establishments in Tooley-street and the Tower. It had been the intention of the Government of Earl Grey to abolish the office of Treasurer of the Ordnance. That office had been considered unnecessary, and Lord Grey's Government had determined to do away with it. The late Government, however, had filled it up, and included the salary in their estimates; but his Majesty's present Ministers on coming into office, made up their minds to carry the intention of Lord Grey's Government into effect. The situation was therefore held for the present by his right hon. Friend, the Member for Dundee, without salary, until it could be placed on a different footing, and therefore the first vote which he would have the honour to propose would be 1,000l. less than the sum in the printed estimate. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving that a sum not less than 7,193l. be granted to his Majesty for defraying the expense of the Master General of the Ordnance, and the officers and clerks employed at the Tower, Pall-mall, and Dublin for the ensuing year.

§ Mr. Hume
said, it would greatly facilitate business if the pay-offices of the army, the navy, and the Ordnance were consolidated, and expressed his hope that a Bill to that effect would be brought in during the present Session.

§ Mr. Cobbett
observed, that these sums were necessary to keep the system going; 1191 to grease, as it were, the wheels of the system, by giving money to idlers; and to effect this properly it was necessary, that they should go from one estimate to another, to confuse accounts already sufficiently difficult.

§ Dr. Bowring
said, that from the manner in which the Estimates were made out, it was very difficult to ascertain the cost of any particular Government.

§ Sir Thomas Fremantle
said, that when he was in office it had been found that the expense incurred by removing the stores, had been larger than estimated by a sum approaching 4,000l. and as the Treasury could not take sums appropriated by Parliament to other purposes, it was determined to bring the required sum, before the House in the Estimates for the current year.

§ Colonel Leith Hay
said, that in a department like the Ordnance, among the multiplicity of stores, it was found that it would be impossible to obtain some of them so cheap and good as those already on hand. When the House, however, had intimated a desire that the superfluous stores should be removed and sold off as fast as possible, consistently with the interests of the public, that desire had been followed up by the Board, though he was sorry to say, a large quantity still remained.

§ Mr. Hume
called the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to that department. If they took a walk to Hyde Park, they would see there a Magazine, kept up at an expence of 254l. for the salary of the superintendents. A guard of twenty-four men, was kept to take care of a few barrels of gunpowder. He wished to see the hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer go over the items of this Estimate, amounting in all to 14,881l. He must say, he saw no reason to continue many of the expenses of this department; it was a very different thing when the country was in danger of an invasion; but now God knew the country had no apprehension of that kind, and the only invasion it had to fear was of the pocket. Other nations had enough to do to take care of 1192 themselves without troubling England. All those establishments which had been raised in war, ought now to be put down.

§ Colonel Leith Hay
said with regard to some of those departments he agreed with the hon. Member. To show that the Board had every inclination to reduce, whenever it could be done consistently with the public interests; he would mention that since the estimates were prepared, the storekeeper at Fort William having died, the office was immediately abolished, it being thought that the duties could be performed as well by the Barrack master. The Establishment too at Pendennis was thought unnecessary, and had been abolished by which a saving of 460l. was effected every year. He merely stated these facts to show the inclination that existed on the part of Government to keep up no establishment which was not absolutely necessary.

§ Mr. Cobbett
said, he saw no "must" in the case, he saw no reason why the country should keep up servants when it did not want them, any more than private gentlemen. There was the Superannuation List. Now, the noble Lord (Lord Howick) had observed last night, that he (Mr. Cobbett) looked upon the New Poor Law Bill as a "favourite subject of declamation." Well, if he must say so; it was a favourite subject of declamation, sure enough. It was tyranny; it was oppression; it was injustice. But it was impossible to think of the Superannuation List without thinking of the New Poor-law Bill. Why, when it was passed, they were told that to make "a provision for the aged and infirm poor," would teach them to be improvident in their youth; to be economical in their better days, there ought to be no provision for them, and then they would save up, and be independent in their old age. Now, why could they not apply that doctrine to the Gentlemen of the Ordnance? There was this difference, he confessed between them, the poor could not save any thing but health to labour, and often they had not a sufficiency of that; but those Gentlemen of the Ordnance had from 1,000l. to 1,500l. per annum, and why was there provision for them, then? But the Reformed Parliament first voted that the poorer classes ought to be compelled to "save" for their old age, and then, in the next breath, voted what was called 1193 "superannuation allowances" to those persons who had in the public service, been able to save, and had not saved. It might call itself a "Reformed Parliament," but the people would call it what he (Mr. Cobbett) would not take the liberty of calling it.

§ Mr. Roebuck
said, that was the most extraordinary vote in the whole estimate: he saw fortifications erected in Halifax, Prince Edward's Island, Canada, &c, now, what were all these for? There was a citadel in Lower Canada: what was that for? They would lose those countries in time, and lose their money with them. They were forcing the people of England to pay for expenses which were absolutely useless. They were not going to war, he hoped, and they should not incur all those enormous expenses by preparations for war. It was nothing more than to afford a pretence for sending out persons who might enjoy large salaries as superintendents,—an exceedingly convenient mode of getting rid of idle people! He hoped the Member for Middlesex would find means to restrain those expenses.

§ Colonel Hay
said, the Duke of Wellington had sent a commission to Canada for the purpose of ascertaining the practicability of erecting the forts; and all which had since been done by the present Ministry, for the purpose of finishing those forts which had been begun.

§ Mr. Cobbett
believed all these expenses sprung from a desire to squander away the public money; and he believed that the people of Canada and the people of England would stand it no longer. It seemed when an expense was begun, it must go on—Parliament had sanctioned it. Why, Parliament had never sanctioned this outlay, he never had, at least. The sanction of Parliament at one time was no warrant for continuing a wrong.

§ Mr. Hume
said, upwards of two millions had been thrown away in that way in the wilds of America. The fortifications would cost 220,000l. more, 50,000l. had been expended already, and the remaining expenditure of 170,000l. he was sure, might be altogether prevented.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted that that was a very difficult question. He could say that no works, 1194 not necessary, would be erected. He did not express an opinion upon the subject; he was informed on it, that only such works had been begun as military men of competent acquirements had recommended. It must be a question with respect to some of the works which they recommended, whether there was an absolute necessity for them; but the House must rely on the judgment of the military men who had been consulted.

§ Mr. Roebuck
said, that if the works were continued, they would be perfectly useless; the way to preserve Upper Canada was to govern it well, and if they governed them by their hearts, their hands would be quite strong enough to keep off the Americans. There was something very suspicious in that system of fortifying; he was not quite sure that they would not, one day, be turned against the inhabitants themselves.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it was the opinion of an eminent military gentleman, that the forts would materially strengthen the country.

§ Mr. Roebuck
said, that was not the question; the question was, whether the country was strong enough without them; and he hoped that in the liberal spirit of the Government, they would have a much stronger fortification than could be made of bricks and stone, and brass and iron.