HC Deb 17 July 1835 vol 29 cc694-7
Mr. Hume

rose and said—I wish to put a question to the noble Secretary for Ireland, whether he has received any account of the outrage which it appears by the newspapers was committed on the 12th July at Belfast? The following passage from an Irish paper will explain the nature of the transaction. [The hon. Member here read the quotation, according to which it appeared that the Riot Act had been read by a magistrate of the name of Skinner, in consequence of an illegal assembly of Orangemen; that the military had been called in; that they had been assailed with stones; that they ultimately fired upon the people, and that one young woman was killed and several other persons wounded.] I wish to know whether the Noble Lord is possessed of any corresponding information relative to this transaction?

Lord Morpeth

Accounts relative to that transaction have reached the hands of Government, and I regret to say, that it is but too true, that in consequence of riotous proceedings one young woman lost her life, and several other persons were wounded.

Mr. Hume

Although business of importance stands for this evening, I consider this as a matter of much greater consequence; and before I sit down I shall submit to the House the propriety of taking some measures to put an end to this system of excitement and outrage. I shall be able to show how evidence may be obtained, on which the House can act; and in doing so I shall only occupy a few minutes.

Lord John Russell

I have moved the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Corporations Bill: but if the hon. Member for Middlesex proposes to go into those transactions at Belfast, and into Orange Societies generally, I apprehend that others will be desirous of taking part in the discussion, and the delay will be much greater than he anticipates. If he persists, I might as well at once defer the further proceeding on the Municipal Corporations' Bill till next week.

Mr. Hume

I am as anxious to proceed with it as the Noble Lord, and if the House will only listen to the few words I have to say, the matter will be at an end. I deem the subject of so much importance that I am willing to hazard the delay of the Municipal Corporations Bill for a short time, while I direct the attention of the House to some recent events in that unfortunate country—Ireland. By reference to certain public papers we find that Orange Lodges nave been carried to a great extent there; that they have been established in various regiments, and that as late as the 28th of April last two or more commissions—

Colonel Perceval

I rise to order; there is a Question before the House, to which what the hon. Member for Middlesex says has no reference. If he makes a motion without notice it will be my duty, and that of other Members to counteract his ex parte statements, and to repel his attacks; let him give a notice for a future day.

Mr. Hume

My object is not to raise a discussion now; if hon. Members will but hear what I have to say. A Committee has been sitting, appointed by the House to take evidence respecting Orange Societies, and I find from newspapers published in Dublin, as well as in London, that part of that evidence has been communicated by Members of the Committee. In an Orange newspaper of the 6th of July—

Mr. Wilson Patten

As Chairman of that Committee I protest against such an imputation.

The Speaker

The Question is, that the Order of the Day be read for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Municipal Corporations' Bill, and I do not see how Orange Lodges can have any reference to that Motion.

Mr. Hume

I apprehend that it rests entirely with the discretion of the House and of the Members. I am perfectly in order, for I can move an amendment upon any motion, but it is not my wish to do so unnecessarily. I will move if I am obliged, but I wish to submit to the House whether it will not agree that the evidence taken before the Committee on Orange Associations should be laid upon the Table. When that is done, and when we have also the orders of the Commander-in-chief respecting Orange Lodges, for which I am to move in the course of the evening, the House will be in a condition to decide upon a subject of great importance. The question does not involve ordinary individuals; but, if I am correctly informed, it goes to imply that a person of the highest rank in the country has been guilty of high crimes and misdemeanours against the State. If the House is willing that the evidence should be produced, I will not say one word more now, but the moment it is upon the Table I will submit a Motion. I beg to ask the hon Chairman of the Committee whether the evidence is terminated, and whether it is in a condition to be laid before the House?

Mr. Wilson Patten

In reply, I beg to say that the Committee did not meet this morning. When it does meet, I will obtain its opinion whether the evidence ought to be laid upon the Table. A great many witnesses have recently been summoned, and it may be doubted whether the inquiry can be closed in the present Session. I believe it to be the general opinion of the Committee, from the nature of the evidence, which has been brought forward somewhat in the shape of accusation and defence, that it would not be fit to communicate it to the House until it has been given fully on both sides. I may take this opportunity of saying that the Committee has witnessed with great regret communications made to newspapers in Ireland of the proceedings of the Committee. I have seen several statements totally the reverse of the truth: I have seen evidence in English papers also, extremely incorrectly given; but other representations of what has passed in the Committee are true: which are true, and which untrue, I am not authorized by the Committee to mention.

Mr. Finn

, as a member of the Committee, thought that the part of the evidence relating to the army being complete in itself, might be laid upon the Table without detriment.

An Hon. Member

objected to any such statements being made by a member of the Committee.

Mr. Finn

contended that he was justified in offering his opinion.

The Speaker

It seems to me that no communication of facts should be made without the sanction of the Committee, but the hon. Chairman was quite in order when he informed the House of the extent to which the evidence had already gone. He did not refer to any particular head of evidence, but to the general course of examination.

Mr. Wilson Patten

At the next meeting, on Monday, I will take the sense of the Committee on the question whether any of the evidence ought to be laid before the House.

Mr. Hume

Then all I will now do is, to give notice that on Tuesday next I will move that the Select Committee on Orange Lodges be directed to report the evidence already taken as to the prevalence and extent of Orange Lodges in the Army at home and abroad, together with copies of any documents for which the Committee may have sent.