§ Mr. Humemoved that a message be sent to the Lords, requesting that they will allow the attendance of the Duke of Gordon and of Lord Kenyon—the first the Grand Master of the Orange Lodges in Scotland, and the latter the Grand Master of those in England— before the Committee now appointed to inquire into the existence of Orange Lodges in England and Scotland. Yesterday a noble Lord attended before the Committee, and he now begged to state, in reply to an insinuation which had been thrown out on the other side of the House, that he had then, in the hearing of the hon. Members for Cardiff and Cavan, asked the hon. Member for Buckingham, both in public and in private, whether he could give him the names of any hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House who were 508 willing to act as members of that Committee. He had said, that they might send in any name they chose, but no notice had as yet been taken of that communication.
§ Colonel Percevalgave the hon. Member credit for wishing to act justly and impartially in this investigation; but could he defend the original formation of the Committee on Orange Lodges? There were sixteen Members on it of one way of thinking, and only seven of the other. He admitted that the hon. Member for Kilkenny had come over to his side of the House, and had asked him and his Friends to meet him for the purpose of forming a fair Committee. Other counsels, however, subsequently prevailed. He must say, that interested as he was on the point as an Orangeman, he had never heard before of the communication made by the hon. Member for Middlesex to his hon. Friend, the Member for Buckingham.
§ Mr. Hume.—Then I take this opportunity of moving that Colonel Perceval be appointed a member of that Committee.
§ Colonel Perceval begged leave to decline the appointment.
Sir Thomas Freemantleput it to the hon. Member for Middlesex, whether it was fair to pursue this inquiry further at this period of the Session? He admitted that the hon. Member for Middlesex had come to his hon. Friend, the Member for Cardiff, and himself, and asked them whether they could give him the names of any Friends who were willing to act on the Orange Committee. We said that we could not find any Members on our side of the House who would remain in town at this season of the year to attend that Committee. After an attendance of six months, during a very fatiguing Session, they were satisfied in excusing themselves from attendance on such a Committee. There is not one Member on this side of the House who can attend: is it, then, fair to continue the investigations of this Committee?
§ Mr. Warburton.—The object of this Committee is to inquire, and not to adjudicate. The evidence collected by the Committee must be laid before the House, and the House would then adjudicate upon it.
An hon. Member.—As a Member of the Committee upon the Orange Lodges, I beg leave to ask the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo, whether he means to say that there has been anything unfair in the proceedings of that Committee?
§ Colonel Perceval.—I will answer that question frankly and honestly. I think 509 that any Committee composed of Members whose opinions bear exclusively one way are very likely to be carried away, even without intending it, by their feelings. The Members of one party examine a witness. They come to a point which sustains their opinions, and having got from the witnesses all they want, they decline to push their examination further. I think that a Committee of sixteen Members, all of the same opinion, without intending to act improperly, may come, and, indeed, will come, to conclusions very opposite to those, at which a Committee, composed of men of different opinions, all eager to get at the truth, would arrive.
§ Mr. Roebuckwished to know whether the hon. and gallant officer would apply the principle which he had just laid down to the Orange Grand Juries in Ireland?
§ Colonel Perceval.—The Orange Grand Juries are upon their oaths, and are sworn to act honestly, indifferently, and impartially. I defy the hon. and learned Member for Bath, and, indeed, any other Member of the House, to point out a case where Orange Grand Juries have not faithfully discharged their duties. Within the last few months, in my own county, an Orange Jury has found an Orangeman guilty, and the man suffered in consequence. The Orange Lodges are not associations which are likely to undermine the respect which is due to truth.
§ Mr. Aglionbysaid, that he could not take offence at anything which had fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo. He admitted that party considerations often swayed the mind and made men fall almost unknowingly into mistakes. With reference to the Committee on Orange Lodges, of which he had the honour to be a member, so long as the House continued its existence, so long should he be ready to serve upon it. No fear of obloquy, no dread of misrepresentation of his motives, would prevent him from doing his duty as a member of that Committee. He regretted exceedingly that hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House had not attended the investigations of that Committee. He did not mean to impute any blame to those hon. Members who thought that the existence of Orange Lodges was advantageous to the country. On the contrary, he should feel much obliged to them if they would attend to assist him in ascertaining the truth respecting the objects of such 510 societies. He should continue, he repeated, to attend the Committee, and to put questions on all points where he entertained doubts; and he should put those questions with the greater eagerness wherever the answers were likely to tell in favour of the Orangemen. For his own part, he would much rather bring in a verdict of acquittal than of guilty against the Orange societies.
§ Mr. Hume's Motion was agreed to.
§ Mr. Hume.—I now beg leave to move that Captain Gordon, the Member for Aberdeen, be appointed a member of the Orange Committee.
Sir John Yarde Buller.—I hope the House will let me be excused. I attended the Committee on Orange Lodges on its first formation in March last. I continued to attend till I was appointed a member of the Committee on the Great Yarmouth election petition; and after having been a party to two such laborious investigations, I hope the House will have me excused.
§ Major Fancourt.—I don't wish to have that honour.
§ Subject dropped.