§ Mr. Humemoved for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the Orange Lodges in Great Britain and the Colonies. He said that he had the authority of the hon. Gentleman who was Chairman of the late Committee (Mr. Patten) to put his name down amongst those whom the House might appoint as the Committee on the present occasion.
§ Dr. Nichollsaid, this was a subject which required debate, but it being impossible that they could enter into the question at so late an hour, he should move if the Motion were persisted in, that the House should adjourn.
§ Mr. Pringlethought it quite out of the question that at this late period of the Session they could go into such an inquiry, or consent at that late hour of the night to any such Motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought that the proposition to extend the inquiry to England was one which the House could not but accede to. He was of opinion that there could have been no objection to an instruction to the former Committee, if it had been sitting, to extend its inquiries, and all that was now proposed was to ap- 237 point another Committee, the Members of the former Committee having been discharged, and some of them being out of town.
§ Mr. Sheilsaid, that disclosures had taken place within the last two or three days which rendered it impossible not to go on. That being the case, he contended the subject ought to be probed to the bottom. Were they to be told, with such facts before them, that any further inquiry was to be postponed for six months, and that in the interval the Orange Lodges were to go on extending their influence in the British Army. If there was any individual particularly interested in the question, it was an illustrious personage whose name he would not mention, and not to pursue this inquiry into all the circumstances would be a great injustice to him.
Mr. Wallacesaid, this was a question not affecting England only. It had been shown that the Governor of Edinburgh Castle was an Orangeman. He would contend that there ought to be the strictest investigation into this plot—for such he would call it. They did not know to what extent it went, they did not know that it was not meant to subvert the succession to the Throne. He would assert in his place in Parliament, that it was meant to do so. On the 12th of July, for the first time, riots had broken out in Scotland, and all the circumstances ought to be closely examined into. The Orange Lodge system affected the three kingdoms; and he was so impressed with the belief that the illustrious personage to whom reference had been made, was deeply implicated in it, that nothing could satisfy him to the contrary, short of a most searching investigation.
§ Mr. Humesaid, he could at once show grounds for the present Motion. The hon. Gentleman then stated that he held in his hand a paper, from which it appeared that at a meeting over which the Duke of Cumberland presided, warrant 254 was granted to a private of the 6th battalion of Royal Artillery, and warrant 260 to private Wilson, of the 17th. He put it to the hon. Gentleman whether, after that statement, he would persevere in his opposition.
§ Dr. Nichollsaid, the graver the charge made, the more necessary was it that such a motion should not be disposed of at a time of the night when it could not receive the consideration which was due to it. He thought that the question ought at least to be postponed till to morrow-night.
§ Lord Sandonput it to the hon. Gentle- 238 men opposite, whether, if they were in the minority, they would not complain of the tyranny of a majority which would force a measure forward at a time when it was impossible that it could be properly debated?
§ Viscount Palmerstonsaid, the noble Lord had talked of the tyranny of a majority, but to him it appeared that the unyielding opposition of a minority to an important measure, without any valid reasons for such opposition being assigned, was a species of tyranny quite as objectionable as any other. It was admitted that the statement of the hon. Member for Middlesex rendered it necessary that there should be an inquiry, and yet it was proposed to postpone that inquiry. The ground taken for the postponement was, that the statement made affected an illustrious person. Now, he would ask, what better mode of vindicating the illustrious individual could be adopted, than the inquiry which the hon. Member for Middlesex moved for? One hon. Gentleman recommended the postponement of the inquiry till next year. Would not this be most improper, to deprive the illustrious individual of the opportunity of showing that the charge made was not maintainable. He trusted that a better reason would be shown for vexatiously obstructing public business by repeated motions for adjournment, or that they would be abandoned.
§ Mr. Shawcould state, on authority, that the illustrious Duke had not the slightest knowledge of the existence of Orange Lodges in the army. He thought the proposed course calculated to prejudice the case.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, if this were the first time the Question had been before the House, he admitted they would have no right, at this late hour, to call on the hon. Gentlemen opposite to accede to the Motion; but the Question was conceded by the late Government; it was carried without a division; and the Motion was seconded by an hon. Gentleman who was himself connected with the Orange Lodges. His Royal Highness's connexion with the society was not the object of the inquiry, but part of it; and the inconvenience was what he had exposed himself to by the high office which he had consented to fill.
§ Mr. Aglionbysaid, that if he had been so charged he should have begged that the Committee might sit from day to day: and he should have exclaimed, "Heaven defend me from such friends as the hon. Gentlemen opposite!" who urged delay.
§ Mr. Scarlettcontended that the effect of this Motion would be directly to interfere with the discipline of the army, and therefore he was opposed to it. He had heard that by Reform the House of Commons would become too strong for the King's Government, and this, he thought, verified that statement to the fullest extent. If such an inquiry were granted all he could say was, that if they did not exempt the army from it, they would be setting the prerogative of the Crown at defiance.
§ The House divided on the original Motion; Ayes 39; Noes 14: Majority 25.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Aglionby, H. A. | O'Connor, Don |
| Baring, F. T. | Oswald, J. |
| Baldwin, Dr. | O'Brien, W. S. |
| Blake, Martin Jos. | Pease, J. |
| Bowring, Dr. | Pechell, Capt. |
| Bridgman, H. | Palmerston, Lord |
| Chalmers, P. | Ruthven, E. S. |
| Crawford, S. | Raphael, Mr. Sheriff. |
| D'Eyncourt, C.T. | Rice, Hon. T. S. |
| Dilwyn, L. | Sheil, R. L. |
| Finn, W. F. | Sullivan, R. |
| Handley, H. | Thompson, Col. P. |
| Hindley, C. | Thornely, J. |
| Hume, J. | Wakley, T |
| Labouchere, H. | Wallace, R. |
| Maher, J. | Walker, C. A. |
| M'Leod, R. | Warburton, H. |
| Morpeth, Lord | Wyse, Thos. |
| Murray, J. A. | TELLERS. |
| O'Loghlin, M. | Gordon, R. |
| O'Ferrall, M. | Solicitor General. |
| List of the NOES. | |
| Brotherton, J. | Sandon, Lord |
| Buller, Sir J. Y. | Shaw, R. |
| Egerton, | Scarlett, R. |
| Fleetwood, H. | Sibthorp, Colonel |
| Gordon, Captain | Vesey, H. |
| Grimston, Hon.E. | |
| Longfield, J. | TELLERS. |
| Maxwell, H. | Nicholl, Dr. |
| Perceval, Colonel | Pringle, A. |
§ On the Question being again put that a Committee be appointed,
§ Lord Sandonobjected to the urging on of so important a Question at that hour (past two o'clock) in the morning, particularly in the absence of so many Members, who would, if present, be disposed to take part in the discussion. He was quite sure that this was a course which the House, according to its general practice, would not allow to be taken with a common Turnpikeroad Bill, if it were objected to. He was not in any way connected, politically or otherwise, with the illustrious individual whose name had been mentioned; on the 240 contrary, he had differed from him on many important Questions, but he thought it exceedingly unfair that charges of the kind that had been brought should be made without a full opportunity of discussing them. He had no wish to embarrass the Government, but he felt it his duty to propose that the Debate be adjourned.
§ Colonel Sibthorphad great pleasure in seconding the Motion. He thought that the course proposed by hon. Gentlemen was most unfair—a course which he believed few of them would be disposed to pursue with respect to political unions.
§ The House divided on the original Motion; Ayes 40; Noes 14: Majority 26.
§ Original Question again put.
§ Dr. Nichollmoved that the House do adjourn.
§ Mr. Shawsaid, that the refusal of the hon. Member for Middlesex to postpone his Motion, in order to give an opportunity for its full discussion, had placed him (Mr. Shaw) and the Gentlemen at his side in the disagreeable position of objecting to the further progress of the public business. It was clear they had a power of preventing further business from going on, and he put it to the candour of the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman opposite, whether it was fair to urge a Motion of the kind under such circumstances.
§ Viscount Palmerstonsaid the appointment of the Committee would not compromise anybody. It was a following up the inquiry already agreed upon. The facts which had come out in the course of this discussion, instead of being a reason for postponing the inquiry, were, in his opinion, good grounds for urging it forward.
§ Lord Sandonasked, if a charge of the kind had been made against the noble Lord, would he think his accuser had acted fairly towards him if he urged on an inquiry connected with that charge at half-past two o'clock in the morning? Charges of this kind would go before the public, and it might be weeks or months before their refutation would ooze out in the report of a Committee. One hon. Member had said that he could state reasons why the Committee ought not to be appointed, if he had time; and another complained of great fatigue; and all that was asked was a delay of twelve hours, in order to afford full time for the discussion of the question, yet a majority of that House refused that reasonable request. He did not speak about the case itself, or about the individuals connected with it; he spoke for the honour 241 and character of the House, both of which, he contended, would be compromised if a question of this kind was forced on at that late hour.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he would most willingly listen to the appeal of his noble Friend, if it were founded in reason and justice. His noble Friend put it on the ground of a postponement till tomorrow, but other hon. Members were desirous to postpone the Question altogether. Now, let them understand each other. If the delay sought was merely a delay until tomorrow, and that no objection would then be made to the revival of the Committee, he would not object to the postponement till then; but if the object was to defeat the inquiry tomorrow, he should persist in his opposition to the Motion.
§ Mr. Shawsaid, that his object was not to oppose the Motion generally; he had not even made up his mind which way he should vote. What he understood was, that the postponement was sought till tomorrow, that a better opportunity might be afforded for discussing the question.
§ Dr. Nichollfelt that the Motion could not be discussed with fairness tonight. He did not rise to offer any defence for the Duke of Cumberland in any way, but he objected in the commencement on grounds that were known to him, as a member of the Committee, to the Motion generally. All he sought, however, at present was, that the debate should be put off till tomorrow, in order that the subject should have a fair discussion. But he did not say that he tomorrow would not oppose the Motion.
§ Mr. Borthwick,if the objection were raised on the merits of the Motion, would vote with the hon. Member for Middlesex; but if it were merely for a delay in order to secure a full discussion, he would support the Motion for an adjournment.
§ Mr. Sheilcontended, that the state of business tomorrow would absolutely preclude any better chance of bringing the Question forward than there was at the present moment. The hon. and learned Member (Dr. Nicholl) objected to the discussion in the absence of the Chairman of the late Committee, yet it appeared that the hon. Chairman had authorized the hon. Member for Middlesex to put down his name as a member of the new Committee. If the hon. Member had any peculiar reasons to urge against the formation of this Committee, he could have stated them in 242 one-tenth of the time consumed in the divisions which had already taken place on the subject. It was said on all sides, that there was no objection to putting a stop to a system which might disorganize our army, but when it came to an inquiry every objection that could be raised was urged against it. He rejoiced in the divisions which had taken place, because they demonstrated a readiness to shrink when they came to the point. When they came to probe the system to the bottom, then they were met by every miserable contrivance which sophisms could supply, and which the repeated Question of adjournment would practically support. These attempts at delay were subterfuges to which an enlightened public would lend no countenance.
§ Dr. Nichollwas not conscious that he had deserved the severe terms in which the hon. and learned Gentleman had adverted to his conduct.
§ Mr. Sheildisavowed any intention of saying a word that could have wounded the feelings of the hon. and learned Gentleman, or of any Member of that House. He appealed to the whole of his conduct since he became a Member of that House, and he could safely assert he never intentionally used a harsh expression towards any Member in it. Certainly he had never entertained any feeling towards the hon. and learned Gentleman which could tempt him to the use of any such language.
§ Dr. Nicholldid not wish to shrink from any inquiry which proceeded on a fair principle.
§ The House divided on the original Motion; Ayes 42; Noes 15: Majority 27.
§ The Motion to appoint the Committee being renewed, and it being again opposed, the Debate was adjourned till the next day.