SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. (Hansard, 8 May 1834)

§ Sir Daniel Sandford
wished to show to the House by a short statement of facts, the weight that was to be attached to petitions presented by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gillon) praying for a separation of Church and State. The other day that hon. Member presented a petition of this description from Glasgow which he said was signed by 49,600 persons. At the time he (Sir D. K. Sandford) doubted the accuracy of the hon. Gentleman's statement, and by an inquiry he had subsequently made on the subject he was now in a situation to show that his conjecture was correct. The whole male population of Glasgow did not exceed 54,000, and from this a deduction of 15,000 was to be made for persons who were unable to write their own names; so that there re- 758 mained only 39,000 who could by any possibility affix their signatures to a petition. These were facts which could not be disputed; and if he were to say, as the fact was, that at least one-half of the male population of Glasgow were hostile to any separation of Church and State, he would render the hon. Gentleman's statement still less worthy of credit.

§ Sir S. Whalley
rose to order. The hon. Gentleman (Sir D. K. Sandford) had no right to discuss the subject of a petition presented on a former day.

§ The Speaker
said, he did not consider the hon. member for Paisley guilty of any disorder in the observations he had made.

§ Sir Daniel Sandford
in continuation, contended that the petition to which he referred was a rank imposture, and a tissue of downright trickery. He was ready to prove that a great portion of the signatures attached to it were those of mere boys, and that whole columns of names were nothing more than inventions. He denied, that the great majority of the Dissenters of Scotland were in favour of a separation of Church and State, and asserted that there was a proportion of four to one the other way.

§ Mr. Ewing
was aware, from his knowledge of the Dissenters in Glasgow, that many of the names affixed to the petition were of the highest respectability, and that every care must have been taken to avoid improper signatures. But he certainly felt startled when he heard that a petition from that city for a separation of the Church from the State had been presented from 50,000 persons. The whole population at the last census was 202,000 of whom more than one-half were females. Of the males, not many more than 50,000 were above fifteen years of age, and of these about one-half were computed to belong to the Established Church. He had been requested to support the object of the petition, with a view to the next election, but he had refused all pledges, and would continue to pursue the even tenor of his way. If ever there was an establishment of which Dissenters had little reason to complain, which was founded not only on the rock of poverty, but of purity, and which was distinguished for the talents, the piety, and the zeal of its clergy, it was that of the Church of Scotland. He had every reason to love and respect the Dissenters, and would strive to remove all their real grievances.

§ Mr. Gillon
asserted, that no imposition whatever had been practised to obtain signatures to the petition referred to. He had stated no more than the truth when he declared, that the Dissenters of Scotland were almost to a man favourable to the separation of Church and State.

§ Mr. Sinclair
was not surprised, that petitions of that nature were intrusted to the hon. Member, for he believed the hon. Gentleman was the only Member from Scotland who advocated such a proposition.