IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES ACT. (Hansard, 2 May 1834)

§ Mr. Littleton
said, that the reason why he had yesterday suggested a Committee on this Act was, that certain Amendments might be introduced into it,—some to give it greater effect, others to correct errors, and a few to extend its provisions. The principal Amendment related to the Vestry-cess. It had been universally understood, that the Vestry-cess of 1833 was to be discharged by the Commissioners; in fact, that they were to pay all after the passing of the Bill. The Bill had been unexpectedly delayed, and did not receive the Royal Assent before Easter, so that the Easter Vestry-cess became due before the Commissioners were empowered. A clause ought to have been inserted, giving the measure a retrospective operation, and to remedy this omission the present proceeding was necessary. It would be remembered, that it was understood that Government was, in the first instance, to give pecuniary assistance to the Commissioners on the credit of their funds, with a view to the purposes of the Church Temporalities' Act. The charges they 423 would have to sustain would amount this year to between 80,000l. and 90,000l.; and he apprehended, that they would be in the receipt of funds to the extent of 107,000l. or 108,000l.; but from this sum was to be deducted 45,000l. for expenses. The proposition he had to make was, that the Treasury should now advance the Ecclesiastical Commissioners a sum not exceeding 100,000l., upon such interest as might be hereafter determined. Without entering into the details of errors which the Amendments were proposed to correct, he would state, that they would apply to the cases of suspension mentioned in the 116th Clause, and of disappropriation under the 124th Clause. With respect to the deanery of Down he had to observe, that that day there had been laid upon the Table of the House a copy of an order made by the Privy Council of Ireland. By this, the incomes severally derived from the parishes of the Union to the rectors, were altered from an average of 11l. a-year to an average of 455l. a-year. The charges of the deanery were to be defrayed from the incomes, in shares proportionable to their amount; and it was calculated, that under this new arrangement, a net income of 1,047l. a-year would be left to the dean. He had now to propose, that a sum not exceeding 100,000l., be granted from the Consolidated Fund to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to defray certain charges arising under the Act respecting the Church Temporalities in Ireland.

Mr. O'Connell
said, that the Bill which the right hon. Secretary for Ireland wished to amend now, had much more substantial defects than those which he had just referred to. The House ought to know, that that Bill had given no relief whatever to the Roman Catholic Dissenters in Ireland, except to relieve them from the payment of Church-cess. The fittest way to proceed would be to repeal the Act of the last reign, the 7th of George 4th, known by the name of Goulburn's Act, and to leave the collection of Vestry-cess to the remedy of Common-law. He would, however, be contented with the repeal of the clause in the Act 7th George 4th which gave the vestry the right of maintaining any assessment against which no appeal was lodged at the original imposition, or, if that were refused him, he should move hereafter, on the introduction of a clause, that no Vestry-cess should 424 derive any permanent force in consequence of the absence of any appeal being lodged against it. He should not trouble the Committee further now, except merely to add, that it was his intention again to try what the opinion of the House was upon the 147th Clause of the Act of last Session.

§ Mr. Hume
said, he would not consent to advance one single shilling, until he ascertained what amount of funds had been received from lapsed Sees and other sources, since last year.

§ Mr. Littleton:>
If the hon. member for Middlesex had been in his place at the proper time, he would have heard the amount stated.

§ Mr. Hume
I was in my place, and yet did not hear it.

§ Mr. Littleton
Then I beg to inform the hon. Gentleman, that the sum received in the course of last year, from lapsed Sees and other sources, is about 30,000l.

§ Mr. Hume
did not see why the money to be advanced should be charged on the Consolidated Fund. He feared, that if we put it on that Fund we should never see a farthing of it again. He proposed to leave out the words "Consolidated Fund," and substitute for them "the Commissioners of Exchequer Bills." He would ask the noble Lord, while he was on this subject, what measures the Government were about to bring forward to pacify Ireland. Before we advanced more money to support the Church, which, in his opinion, was the cause of all the disturbances there, we ought to think of some remedial measures. It was fit that the Church should be maintained out of the Church property, and he should therefore move, as an Amendment, that 100,000l. should be paid to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ireland by the Commissioners of Exchequer Bills.

§ Lord Althorp
said, that this money was merely in advance on the security of the Church property. He did not suppose that his hon. friend would have thought the money was to come out of the pocket of the nation. He felt with him, that the Church should maintain itself with its own property. He certainly had no objection to authorise the Commissioners of Exchequer Bills to advance the money if they had enough in hand.