§ Mr. Potterpresented a Petition from a congregation of Dissenters, assembling for religious worship in Hope Chapel, Wigan, praying for relief. They expressed their conviction that religious associations should depend for support upon the voluntary contributions of their own members. They complained of the great hardship and serious inconvenience arising from the want of a legal mode for the registration of births, marriages, and deaths. The petitioners thought they ought to be allowed the use of parochial cemeteries which were public property; they also considered their exclusion from the national schools and universities as very unjust. As regarded the payment of Church-rates, he considered the Dissenters had just grounds of complaint, and he trusted the House would at no distant period relieve them. In many parishes the opposition to them had been successful, not by illegal means, but by a vote of the vestry; two instances of this occurred at Christ Church, Surrey, one in May, and the other in July, and the opposition was so general that there was a considerable majority, not only by single votes, but by plurality of votes under Sturges Bourne's Act. The Church was for three weeks without sexton, organist, and other persons generally employed; even the clock was stopped. A few weeks back every tiling was restored as usual, but not by means of the parish funds, and it is generally thought it will be impossible to obtain another rate; a circumstance like this must greatly injure the Establishment. Many other instances might be mentioned where the Church-rates had been so refused. If he were one of the most ardent supporters of the Church, the best and safest course he would recommend 995 was to give up the Church-rates with a good grace. It was said the Church-rates in England amounted to about 600,000l., and an opinion had been given from high authority that they might be very considerably reduced; but he begged to observe, that it was not so much the amount as the principle which was objectionable. An instance of this occurred last year in the great parish of Manchester; a vestry was called to lay a Church-rate, only one halfpenny in the pound was proposed, but the objection even to that small rate was as great as if it had been twenty times as much he show of hands was decidedly against the rate; a poll was demanded, and at its close, at the end of several days, the rate of one halfpenny was only carried by a majority of 156 votes; nearly double the number of persons voted against the rate, and it was only sanctioned by the plurality of votes under the Vestry Act. As regarded the Dissenters' Marriage Bill, brought in by the noble Paymaster of the Forces, he regretted that it did not go far enough to give satisfaction.
Mr. Tennysongreatly regretted that the Bill brought in by the noble Paymaster of the Forces, was not of a more extensive nature, and that his Majesty's Speech did not express something like a recommendation to introduce some measure for the entire removal of the disabilities under which Dissenters laboured. Judging from the measure brought forward by the noble Lord, judging also from the measure of Irish Church Reform passed during the last Session, he greatly feared that nothing satisfactory to the feelings of the Dissenters would be done by his Majesty's Government.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he had received many petitions of a similar nature from Dissenters, and letters calling upon him to support their prayer. He concurred with the hon. Member who had last spoken, that the Bill introduced by the noble Lord was totally unsatisfactory. With respect to the observation made by the hon. member for Lincoln regarding the Universities, he must observe, that nine-tenths of these institutions were founded with property left for the relief of the suffering souls in purgatory, by the celebration of mass, and other Roman Catholic ceremonies. Now, unless the Government could by an Act of Parliament clear out purgatory, they did away with the intention of the donors, by converting these 996 institutions to any other purposes. He thought, that having established religious equality, their next step should be to extinguish the feeling of asperity and animosity that existed between Christians of different persuasions. One of the best modes of doing this would be to educate the youths of different persuasions together. The Dissenters had requested him to support the prayer of their petitions, and they did him but justice in supposing that he was ready to procure for them that relief from religious disabilities which had been procured for the members of his persuasion.
Sir Matthew White Ridleyentirely concurred in the prayer for granting relief to Dissenters from those grievances under which they laboured, but he certainly did not go to the extent that some of those petitions went, particularly as far as regarded the separation of Church and State. This was a most mistaken view of sound policy, and if the House were to act upon this recommendation, it would do more injury to the Dissenters themselves, and to the body of the community, than any other measure. He agreed with the hon. and learned member for Dublin that if the measures of relief were to be confined to the Bill brought in by the noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, he should be concerned that it did not go further. He had, however, reason to believe that a measure granting more advantages to the Dissenters, and remedying more grievances, would be soon submitted to the House. A great deal had been said about the compulsory payments of Church-rates, and he concurred in the propriety of putting an end to them; but there was a circumstance which had come to his knowledge, so highly creditable to the character of the Dissenters, that he would take the liberty to state it to the House. In the parish of Saint Martin-in-the-Fields, the Church-rates had fallen into arrear, and a large sum of money was due. The Vestry did not think it right to press a rate for it, but trusted to be able to make it up by voluntary contributions. The plan was tried; the whole, or nearly the whole of this sum was raised, and the collectors informed him that no class of persons contributed more liberally or generously than the Dissenters.
§ Mr. O'Dwyerobserved, that there was one principle contained in the Bill introduced by the noble Paymaster of the 997 Forces which, in a similar Bill introduced by Lord Plunkett in Ireland, had been productive of serious inconvenience and annoyance; he meant the provision which rendered it necessary to have the permission of the clergy of the Established Church previous to the burial of the dead.
§ Dr. Lushingtonthought it would be much more expedient to wait till the noble Paymaster of the Forces was present, before entering into this discussion. Unless the Bill were fairly stated, and the principles of it fully understood, it was incompetent to any Gentleman, be his talent what it might, to pronounce a just opinion upon any particular part of it. The hon. Member who spoke last had stated that a particular part of the present Bill would be productive of considerable annoyance to the Dissenters. He would state, that when the Bill was seen, and its provisions known, the Dissenters would not entertain that opinion, and for this reason, that there would be no such provision contained in it. He was afraid that it was premature to enter into any discussion at present, but he would say, that it would be competent to any person whatever, whether a Dissenter or a member of the Church, to be married in a Dissenting chapel. He did not introduce the discussion, but he thought it right to correct any misapprehension, and that it was expedient that no misstatement should go forth upon this most important question. It was-most desirable that they should not raise an outcry against a measure until they had bad an opportunity of considering it, and above all, it was desirable that the truth should be stated at all times.
§ Mr. Harveysaid, there was nothing so ungrateful to the ears of Dissenters as the word "toleration;" it should be exploded altogether—perfect equality was what the Dissenters aspired to. All Christians should be put upon an equal footing. He should like to hear reasons for saying that the separation of Church and State would be prejudicial to Dissenters. No argument had been used to prove that assertion. With regard to the property of the Church, it was not the wish of Dissenters to spoliate it, for Dissenters themselves had an interest in preserving such property. It suited the purpose of many to say that the Dissenters required spoliation. Quite the contrary. The fact was, that many Dissenters' establishments were as largely endowed as Churches. They were, therefore, 998 interested in preserving the principle of the security of such property.
§ Mr. Finchadmitted, that there was no doubt that Parliament had the power to enact any measures as regarded the Church that it pleased; but he, for one, held that the property of the Church ought to be deemed as sacred as the private property of any gentleman who heard him. The property which had been bequeathed to the Universities was bequeathed to them for a particular and specific purpose; and to interfere with that appropriation—to divert it from that purpose—would, in his opinion, be complete spoliation. He also thought that it was the duty—the bounden. duty—of every Christian State to provide, and that most liberally, for the religious instruction of the people.
Mr. Andrew Johnstonewas convinced that the great body of Dissenters had a very different view of these matters as connected with the Establishment, and that their intention was to strip the Church of all its endowments. The hon. Member (Mr. Harvey) said, that the Dissenters did not pray for, but demanded, equality.
§ Mr. PoulterI rise to present several petitions from numerous and most respectable bodies of Dissenters of different denominations, residing in the towns of Shaftesbury, Mere, Birdbush, Henstridge, and Stalbridge, in the counties of Wilts and Dorset. The prayer of these petitions is to be relieved from various disabilities and grievances which still oppress the great class of the dissenting interest in this country. One of the principal objects of the petitioners is to be exempted from paying Church-rates. There is certainly a great distinction between the Church-rate and the general property of the Church; the latter, though mixed up with the property of others, being quite distinct from it as to tithe, while the former is a direct tax upon it. It would be difficult to say, that persons not adhering to the Church should be permitted to refuse this payment, because such a right would operate as an inducement to abandon the Church; but I am decidedly of opinion, that if this rate is to be maintained, it ought, under just restrictions and regulations, to be applicable to the repairs of all legal places of religious worship within the parish. Nothing short of this can, or ought to satisfy the just demands of the Dissenters, if the principle of perfect religious liberty is to be maintained. The petitioners also 999 pray for the establishment of a general civil registration of all births, marriages, and burials. If there are difficulties in the way of such a plan, I am sure that an entirely independent system of registration for all these purposes ought to be accorded to Dissenters, and without the slightest interference of the established Church. I can assure the House, that the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, will be most unacceptable to the whole body of Dissenters. I have received the strongest communications from the country, by which I am assured, that this measure will not be regarded as a boon, and will excite no feeling but that of disapprobation and contempt. It may be necessary to prevent the, occurrence of clandestine marriages; but this object may be made perfectly consistent with a system which shall separate those who differ in religious doctrines from the Church, from all contact or collision with that Establishment. I trust the Bill will not pass in its present shape, but will receive such alterations as will make it a substantial measure of religious relief, and acceptable to the country. It is not true that the general body of Dissenters regard with hostility the Established Church. Let them only possess the full enjoyment of equal civil rights, and they will regard the Church as a powerful ally in the great cause of religious and moral education throughout the country. On the subject of admission to our Universities, I also decidedly approve of the prayer of the petitioners. They do not desire to interfere with the enjoyment of collegiate property, but they do claim the right of classical education in these Establishments, and I think they are entitled to do so. In all the other general objects and principles of these petitions, I beg to express my most cordial and entire concurrence, and I now move, that they be brought up.
§ Petitions laid on the Table.