§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he was now about to propose the Irish Estimates; and here he apprehended that he should have to meet the objections of two sets of antagonists—one complaining that he had carried reduction too far, and the other that he had not proceeded with it far enough. It was, however, gratifying to him to be able to state, that since he had been in office, he had effected a reduction in those estimates to the extent of 104,000l., without, he believed, sacrificing any portion of the real interests of Ireland. Would any Irish Member say, that it was necessary to maintain the Protestant charter schools or the Foundling Hospital? ["Yes."] An hon. Member said "yes," but he was prepared to contend that it was both immoral and impolitic to encourage such a gross abuse, and such a shameful waste of the public money. It was his intention to propose a reduced vote for the Foundling Hospital for the present year, with the view of abolishing it altogether hereafter. There was one vote in the present Estimates for which the present Government were peculiarly responsible,—namely, that relating to education. Never had an experiment more fully justified the hopes of those who ventured upon it than the new plan of education, which had been found to do justice to all classes of the people. From the evidence before Parliament it was clear, that the new system had triumphed over two objections which had been made to it,— 966 one, that it was impracticable, and that the people of Ireland would not avail themselves of it; and the other, that it was vicious in principle, because it separated civil education from religious duty. So far from the plan having been found to be impracticable, the vote to be proposed upon the present occasion was insufficient to meet the demands for assistance towards the establishment of schools; and it was a matter for consideration with the Government whether, even in the present year, they should not apply for a larger sum. There was one vote in these Estimates which he should propose with great satisfaction—namely, 2,000l. for the Belfast institution. It was well known, that this excellent institution had, for a number of years, been supported almost entirely by voluntary subscriptions, upwards of 30,000l. having been collected for this purpose from the friends of education in Belfast. Some new lecture-rooms were about to be built, which would cost 4,000l., of which 2,000l. had been subscribed, and the vote for 2,000l., contained in the present Estimates, was intended to cover the deficiency. The right hon. Gentleman concluded with moving, that the sum of 20,000l. be granted to enable the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland to issue money for the advancement of education in that country.
§ The Vote agreed to.
§ It having been proposed, that 18,998l. should be granted for the support of the Foundling Hospital in Dublin,
Mr. Ruthvenregretted that this grant should be reduced, as Ireland was not in a situation, as England was, to support such an institution from its own resources.
§ Mr. Frenchwould remind the House of what had been stated by the hon. and learned Member, the Recorder of Dublin,—that the crime of infanticide had increased since the grant to this institution had been reduced.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the returns and inquiries which had been made on the subject would lead to a different conclusion; but even if some slight increase of infanticide had been the result, that would not justify the Legislature in supporting such an institution by grants of public money. It had been placed beyond all doubt by the inquiries which had been made on the subject, that the institution had not answered its intended object. It had neither contributed to preserve physical life, nor to improve public morals; and if so, he did not see why the Legislature should continue 967 to expend large sums of the public money upon it. The whole of the sums which had been voted to that establishment amounted to not less than 1,200,000l.,—a grant for which, he was sure, no man in the present day would be found to hold up his hand.
§ The Vote was agreed to.
§ The next Vote was for a sum, not exceeding 20,000l., to the House of Industry, Dublin, the Lunatic Department, and the three General Hospitals attached.
§ Mr. Humesaid, there were parts of this sum, the application of which he could not approve,—he meant that which was for the support of paupers in that House of Industry; for he did not see, why the people of England should be called upon to maintain the paupers of Ireland. He thought the House should consider, whether this part of the grant (about 6,000l.) should not be deducted from the vote. The paupers of Dublin would then be driven to claims on their parishes, which ought to support them, rather than cast them on the people of England.
§ Mr. Spring Ricewould not defend the general principle of Parliamentary grants for the support of paupers; but the grant had been made for some time, and he did not see that it would be fair to withdraw it at present, when a change in the law with respect to the poor in Ireland was in contemplation. It would be hardly fair to leave those aged and feeble paupers, who had been hitherto relieved by this grant, in a state of destitution, until some general change was made in the law relating to the poor.
§ Mr. Edward S. Ruthventhought, that the paltry sum which was voted in this way was much better bestowed than the much larger sums paid out of the public money for the purchase of pictures. He did not see, why those paupers had not a fair claim to some assistance out of the public money as well as those of England.
§ Mr. Humecould not concur in that view of the question. The poor of England were not supported out of the public purse. They were supported from a private tax raised on the people, independently of these contributions to the public purse; and it was too much, that, when they supported their own poor, they should be called upon to contribute, out of the public purse, to maintain the poor of Ireland. He agreed with his right hon. friend (Mr. Spring Rice), that, pending the inquiry now going on as to the state of poor in Ireland, it would 968 be hard to withdraw this grant; but this led him to ask, when they might expect the Report of the Commissioners; for, as a change was about to be made with respect to the Poor-laws in England, it was time to expect that something on the subject of the poor should be done in Ireland.
§ Mr. Baldwinwas sure, that, when the hon. member for Middlesex considered the large sums of money drawn yearly from Ireland to be spent in this country,—and for which Ireland got no equivalent,—his humanity would prompt him not to grudge such a paltry pittance as was included in the vote, for the aid of a few aged and infirm poor in Dublin, who were, be it observed, chiefly maintained,—not by this sum, for it was wholly inadequate,—but by local contributions.
§ Mr. Littleton, in answer to the question of his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, said, that he had reason to believe, it would be impossible to expect the Report in the present Session; but it would be ready in the next. There were not the same facilities for carrying on the inquiry in Ireland as existed in England. The Report, however, would be ready as soon as possible; and from the zeal and diligence of the Commissioners, he was sure that, when it was prepared, it would give satisfaction to the public.
§ The vote was agreed to.