HC Deb 27 March 1833 vol 16 cc1166-84

After some previous discussion as to the propriety of entering on the Army Estimates at the late hour of eleven o'clock, during which Mr. Hume gave his consent that they should be gone into,

Lord Althorp

moved the Order of the Day for the House to go into a Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates.

House went into a Committee.

Sir John Hobhouse

said, that as they had arrived at a period of the Session when it was usual to call upon the House to pass a vote of credit for the purpose of meeting the army expenditure, he hoped he should meet with the attention of the Committee, when he asked them to give their sanction to one portion of the Army Estimates, which was the only one he intended to bring forward that night—namely the usual vote for the number of men. He felt that he came before the Committee, in the execution of his duties, under circumstances somewhat to his disadvantage. For many years a gradual diminution in the dead weight of the army had been going on, so that it was impossible for any one holding the office which he had the honour unworthily to fill, to come forward at the present moment with any very flourishing comparative statement between the amount of the Army Estimates now, and those of former periods. There was also another cause for his being placed in a disadvantageous light on the present occasion, which resulted from the possibility of a comparison being instituted between his right hon. friend at the head of the Admiralty, and himself, with regard to the reductions which his right hon. friend had been enabled to make in the expenditure of the navy, since he had managed that branch of the public service. Whilst he could point to no such favourable circumstances, at least to anything like an equal extent in the department controlled by him, there was this consideration, however, to be offered in extenuation—namely, that the Secretary at War had simply to deal with a given number of men and a certain amount of money, which was requisite for their support, whilst the First Lord of the Admiralty, having a much larger scope wherein to exercise his powers of retrenchment and views of economy, had a proportionably greater opportunity for earning that praise which his right hon. friend had so justly received. It was, however, his good fortune, on the present occasion, in bringing forward his branch of the public expenditure, to have it in his power to say that, in the Estimates which he was about to lay on the Table, there was, in spite of that constant and gradual diminution in the non-effective part of them during recent years, to which he had already referred, a further diminution on every item charged to the account of the effective and non-effective forces, to the amount of 206,000l. compared with the amount of the same Estimates in the last year. In rendering this saving clear to the apprehension of the House, he must trouble hon. Members for their attention whilst he made a short statement of the comparative number of troops employed now and at former times, as well as of the increased colonial possessions of Great Britain, which rendered it necessary to maintain the present amount of forces. In making this statement he should avail himself of none of those arts of mystification by which former similar statements had, he feared, been too often justly characterised, but he would endeavour fairly and openly to show where the differences existed, in what services it had been found necessary to increase the number of troops, and in what other services their number had been diminished, and he would also endeavour plainly to state the exact amount of debts and credits in sums total for the different branches, so as to enable the House to comprehend with little difficulty the present condition of the army, and the amount of expenditure which was required to maintain it at its present effective height. He was, however, compelled, reluctantly, to own that the decrease in the effective part of the service was not carried to that extent which had been expected; but, on the contrary, the complement of that portion of the army was kept up to the same amount at which it was when he first had the honour of accepting his present office. But, at the same time, he was enabled to point out, in the present Estimates the absence of several items which were formerly strongly contested as not forming part of the necessary appendages to the effective state of the army during a time of peace. These items were the waggon-train, the army medical department, the Permanent Assistant Quartermaster-General, the Inspector of Clothing, and the Staff of the Civil Governorships, which latter item, however, had disappeared from former Army Estimates. Owing also to arrangements which were made previous to his entering on the duties of his office, but which he had most zealously carried into execution, the deadweight of the Estimates had been reduced to an extent which previously could not have been hoped for, and he earnestly trusted that the House would give him credit for the endeavour, during the term of his continuance in office, to carry into operation the views of those who preceded him, as well as those which he entertained himself, with respect to the reduction of the most objectionable parts of the army Estimates. The first item in the present Estimates was decidedly the smallest that had appeared since the year 1820. He could show, at the same time, that since the year 1820 there had been an average annual decrease in the charge to the amount of 276,000l. on this part of the Estimates; and it was not to be expected that with an annual decrease to the extent he had mentioned, a greater diminution could be expected from him. The amount of the forces which were required for the present year was, exclusive of India, 78,502. In India there were 17,289; making in the whole, the number of 95,791 men. The force was thus distributed:—la Great Britain, 21,783; in Ireland, 23,144; abroad, exclusive of India, 33,706; making up, with the veteran companies, the East India force. West India regiments, and colonial corps, 95,791 men for the entire service. Before he proceeded further, he begged leave to call attention to the observations, or rather comparisons, which some hon. Members were in the habit of indulging in, between the feeble force kept up in 1792 and that now maintained as necessary to the exigences of the country. It would be seen, unless he much deceived himself, that if the increase in the population and territories subject to the British Crown that had taken place since 1792 were duly considered, that even our present force, naval and military, had not increased in an undue proportion. In 1792, our military force consisted of 48,948 rank and file; in 1833 our force was, as he had stated, 95,791 men. He would explain how the difference was made up. The force employed in what he would call the old colonies had increased since 1792 only from 15,108 to 16,058 men. The first ground of this increase was the increased consequence of New South Wales, which required 1,788 men additional; the next was the increased force required by the present condition of Jamaica; in Canada there was 225 men less than in 1792; in the other North American colonies—Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Cape Breton, and Newfoundland—there was a small increase; in Gibraltar the decrease was 1,025. In the whole of the old colonies, however, exclusive of India, and deducting the increase caused by the growth of New South Wales, there were actually nine men less than in 1792. The increase of our forces abroad was wholly owing to the new colonies which had come into our possession since 1792, and to the great increase which had taken place in the entire British population. These new colonies absorbed not less than 16,697 additional to our colonial force in 1792. Our Indian empire, which in 1792 only required 9,513 men for its entire rule and protection, and which now required 17,288 for the protection of British interests, included a population of not less than 89,577,000 souls, and extended over a surface of not less than 1,128,000 square miles. On the face of it such increased empire required an increased military force to protect it. Then there was the increase in Great Britain of 7,000 men in round numbers since 1792; and Ireland, in which there was an increase of 13,151 men. But the increase of population in Great Britain and Ireland ought to be taken into account. He might observe, in passing, that the population of the new colonies was equal to almost a fraction, to that of our old colonies—that is, those in our possession in 1792. That increase was since 1792, from 13,882,000 to 24,27 l,863, it s amount at the present time These facts warranted him in maintaining that the complaints of hon. Members, of our military force having increased in a most undue proportion since 1792 were not well founded. But then it had been argued by an hon. and gallant Member, (Colonel Davies), and others, that though this was true, comparing population with the amount of our force, yet, that if a better system of management were adopted, a much smaller force would be fully adequate to the wants of the public service. It had been said, for example, that the dépôt system admitted of much improvement, and that there was no necessity for keeping so many men idle at home. It was true that the relative number of men at home was greater BOW than in 1792; that while there were then but sixty-two at home for every 100 on foreign service, we had now seventy-five for every 100; but, he could assure the Committee that the depot and relieving systems now in force, were those which the best judges, civil and military, including the Duke of Wellington, Lord Palmerston, Sir Henry Hardinge, Sir Henry Parnell, and Sir Willough by Gordon, had declared to be the most economical and the most efficient. But for these, depots, which some hon. Members objected to, the pension-list would be very considerably augmented, and they afforded the most facile means of effecting reductions when reductions were practicable and expedient. For example, say a regiment returned from foreign service sick. If there was not a large depot to accommodate them, many would be put on the pension-list, others sent to hospitals; but, by affording them the means of proper treatment in the depots, they were recovered and fitted to be again sent out on foreign active service. These depots were also advantageous as presenting so many points throughout the country in which the Government could avail themselves of small but compact bodies of men fit for the public service, and, as he had stated, affording the safest, most practicable, and economical means of reducing the public force without impairing its efficiency. He could assure the House that the mode of reduction pursued in 1821 and 1822 had been productive of serious evil, and that it would be many years ere the dead weight had recovered from its consequences. Were hon. Members aware of the great difference of opinion which obtained in the Finance Committee respecting the amount of saving that might be made in this branch of the public expenditure, that, in fact, the majority agreed that any further safe reduction under the existing circumstances of the country was hardly practicable, and that, after the fullest calculations and detailed inquiries. Lord Palmerston, who had great experience on the subject, could only suggest a reduction to the amount of 6,000. It was, he trusted, hardly necessary for him to say that the present Administration would he glad to make still farther reductions, and that he should be glad to propose lower Estimates than those which were in force on his accession to office. It was found, however, that consistent with the exigences of the public service. Ministers could not propose such reductions as they could wish, and that, in point of fact, the number of men effective and non-effective would be more in this year's Estimate than in that of 1830. For the employment of the increase, Government was bound to account. Abroad, there was 7,689 rank and file more than in 1830, while 6,695 were employed on the home service, of which a large portion was required in Ireland. In the Mediterranean there was a diminution of 1335 in the force since 1830; in the Cape of Good Hope there was an increase of 105 men, in New South Wales an increase of 757 men; the Mauritius of 620 (he need not explain the reason); in the West Indies an increase, and in Ceylon and Canada a reduction—in the former of 292 men, in the latter of 626 men. There was a slight increase in the force employed on the coast of Africa. He thought, that a reference to the state of some of our colonies would account in a satisfactory manner for the excess of force which was employed in 1833 above that employed in 1830. Now it only remained for him to explain the difference of force employed in the last year and that which it was proposed to employ in the present. We had this year 4,092 men less in Great Britain than we had last year; but he was sorry to say, that, owing to the same unfortunate circumstances which existed in Jamaica, Mauritius, and elsewhere, we had 3,673 men more than we had last year. Exclusive of India we had this year 500 men more employed abroad than last year. Having thus stated the amount of force which it was proposed to employ this year, he trusted that the House would not consider him as going out of his way if he stated that he conceived that there were no circumstances in the state of the country which would justify a diminution of our military forces below the numbers of last year. He was sorry to say, that we could not boast of complete tranquillity in our own dominions, and that the aspect of affairs abroad was not such as to justify him, however desirous of economy he might be on principle, in thinking that he should only be performing his duty in asking this year for a diminished force. Thinking it possible that some Gentleman might be led

— Population. Total Revenue. Military Expenditure. proportion of
Regular Army to Population. Military Expenditure to Revenue.
£ £
Great Britain 24,271,763 52,575,308 9,151,784 Effective 1 in 266 one-sixth.
France 32,561,000 35,634,8S2 9,496,520 " 1 in 77 one-fourth.
Austria 32,500,000 12,200,000 8,000,000 " 1 in 116 two-thirds.
Russia 49,000,000 19,300,000 6,791,667 " 1 in 57 one-third.
Prussia 13,400,000 7,693,050 3,419,745 " 1 in 115 one-half.
Spain 13,950,000 6,774,007 2,530,848 " 1 in 273 one-third.
Holland 2,445,000 4,166,666 4,258,333 " 1 in 43 four-fourths.
Belgium 3,533,538 5,750,000 2,880,000 " 1 in 42 one-half.
Bavaria 4,270,000 2,800,000 687,334 " 1 in 95 one-fourth.
United States of America. 13,100,000 5,572,827 1,411,335 " 1 in 1926 one-fourth.

Thus it appeared that the proportion of the Military Expenditure to the Revenue, was only one-sixth in England, which was less than in any other country whatever. He would next state the amount of force kept up in each country; it was as follows:—

— Infantry. Cavalry. Artillery. Staff, Engineers, Garrison Troops, Gendarmes. Total. National Guards, Militia, or Landwher.
Great Britain effective 91,289 men
non-effective 107,076 men
France 280,000 52,000 39,000 50,494 421,494 men 1,400,000
82,057 hors.
Austria 220,000 36,800 16,000 7,200 280,000 400,000
Russia 576,000 66,000 70,000 150,000 862,000 M. Colonies
Prussia 56,200 19,300 13,500 28,000 117,000 389,000
Spain 40,000 6,400 3,600 1,200 51,200 Reserve 25,000
Militia 30,000
Holland 49,000 4,800 3,000 Vet. 750 57,550 Schut 12,000
Belgium 68,880 7,820 5,446 1,473 83,619 20,400
Bavaria 32,000 5,600 3,172 4,228 45,000 145,000
America 4,536 — 2,166 Staff 100 6,802 1,190,000

away by statements which had appeared in the public journals to the effect that there was a diminution of force in the military establishments of other nations, he trusted that the House would permit him to read from a table which he held in his hand, to mention the amount of force—which was really awful—that was kept up by the other Powers of Europe. The most striking way, without going into details, in which that amount could be presented to the House, appeared to him to be, by stating the proportion of armed men in the principal states of Europe to the amount of their population and of their revenue. He held in his hand, a table of the number of men employed in the military service in different countries, and the proportion which they bore to the population of those countries, which he would read to the House. The right hon. Baronet accordingly read the following table:—

He hoped he had not tired the House by these details. He did not mean to state that this country, from its insular position, ought to regulate its force by the conduct of other powers; but he did mean to say, that with reference to the former establishment of the country, and with reference also to the position of the continental powers, we had a right to hold ourselves in the same defensive attitude as during former years. Notwithstanding the appeals which had been made, and he admitted very properly made, to this Reformed Parliament, he did not think that one of their first acts should be to paralyse the efforts of the Government of the country, particularly when just cause had been shown for maintaining all those armaments. If hon. Gentlemen would but cast their eyes over Europe, they would see that there was no state so great or so small, so near or so remote, which had not, by its armaments, some effect upon the military establishments of this country. Whether it was in Europe or in Africa, in America or in India, in the Mediterranean or in the Pacific, the slightest movement made by any power there rendered it necessary for our military vigilance to be in full activity. In the very Estimates then before the House the petty motions of the King of the Mandingoes had swelled their amount by 500l. He trusted that the House would not object to this vote. If any constitutional jealousy prevailed against a large standing army in time of peace at former periods, he trusted that those hon. Members who believed with him that the House now really represented the sentiments and feelings of the people of England, would be satisfied that such jealousy could no longer be justified, and that even any suspicion would be diminished by a just confidence in the House. Under a Reformed Parliament all fears of that kind would be at an end, for the force which ought not to be trusted to a few, might safely be intrusted to those who represented the people of the empire. Those Gentlemen, therefore, who might think that because he objected to the maintenance of such armies in other times, they were still bound to oppose them, were mistaken, for the grounds of suspicion and jealousy which formerly might be justly entertained were now removed by the change which had rendered that House the real representative of the people. The right hon. Baronet concluded by moving that the number of 89,419 men be employed as the land forces of the British Empire, exclusive of those maintained in the East Indies, for the year beginning the first of April, 1833, and ending the 31st of March, 1834.

Mr. Hume

would put it to the House whether, at this late hour of the night—twelve o'clock—it would be advisable to proceed with the discussion. For himself, he was fully prepared with what he had to say on the subject, but he made the suggestion in accordance with the wishes of all those around him, and many others who had to work in Committee to-morrow morning. He appealed to the House as to the adviseableness of proceeding.

Lord Althorp

must persist in proceeding. He was perfectly surprised at such a proposition emanating from the hon. Gentleman as he understood that the hon. Member was willing to proceed. At least let them agree to that one vote or it would be of no use whatever having gone into a Committee.

Mr. Hume

proceeded. He had heard, he said, a great many allegations from the right hon. Secretary, but must confess that he could not place altogether implicit confidence in their infallibility. He had himself several statements on all the subjects mentioned by that hon. Gentleman, and must say, that either his own statement or that hon. Gentleman's must be essentially wrong, for they differed from each other. The right hon. Baronet had stated, that there had been a reduction of 276,000l. annually in the Military expenditure. Now, either that statement or the one which he was about to make, was one of the most erroneous ever put forth in that House, He had in his hand the Estimate of the expenditure for the Army for every year, from 1817 downwards; and, taking the limited statement from the year 1820, of the right hon. Gentleman, he would prove that it was erroneous. In the year 1820, the sum voted for the expenses of the Army was 6,870,000l. If the right hon. Baronet's statement were correct, and 276,000l. had been reduced every year, there would, by this time, have been a diminution of nearly 3,000,000l. on the Army Estimates of 1820; but the real diminution was only 800,000l., for the Army Estimates for the present year amounted to 6,070,000l. The right hon. Baronet was scarcely more fortunate in the statements he had made respecting the diminution of expenditure which had taken place in the army since the present Administration came into office. The Army Estimates for the year in which the Duke of Wellington resigned amounted to 6,200,000l.; this year they amounted to 6,070,000l.; so that the difference between the two years was much less than that which the right hon. Baronet had represented it to be. But the right hon. Baronet had also been guilty of another error, for the expense of the effective force of this year was 56,000l. more than it was in the last year of the Duke of Wellingon's Administration. The number of rank and file voted in that year for the army was 95,786; it was, however, reduced by the noble Duke before the end of the year by no less than 8,000 men. In the year 1831 that number was again added by the present Administration, in consequence of the fires in Hampshire, and the disturbances in other parts of the country. Now, the right hon. Baronet had not stated the reasons which induced him to increase the number of men by the same amount for the service of the present year. Did the same reasons exist for the increase as in 1831? No, they had passed away, and he was therefore at a loss to understand why the House should be called upon to vote that additional force. Again, in the charge for the non-effective service of the Army, if the arrangements which the Duke of Wellington had suggested and acted upon in 1829 had been acted upon by the present Government, there would have been a much more considerable reduction in its amount than there now was under the plans adopted by the present reforming and retrenching Government. He was prepared to show that the right hon. Baronet was equally wrong in his facts and in his calculations, and that there was much greater room for the reduction in the army Estimates than the right hon. Baronet seemed to think. In the civil establishments of the army, too, he was quite sure that as great retrenchments might be made as Sir James Graham had so creditably made in the civil establishments of the navy. He would not then, however, stop to enter into these items, but would come to the comparison instituted by the right hon. Baronet between our military force in 1792 and the present year. He was aware that it could not be reduced to exactly the same amount now as it was in 1792, but he thought that an examination into the mode of its distribution would show that a considerable diminution might be made in the number of men now employed. In the old colonies the difference of force employed then and now was not much; but we had now 17,000 men more employed in the new colonies. Was that number, he would ask, absolutely necessary? He answered that question in the negative. Why should we employ more men in Canada now than we did in 1792? At that time the embittered feelings of the Americans against this country might have rendered the maintenance of a large force necessary in that colony; but why should we have 5,000 or 6,000 men there now? He was informed that 4,000 men might be withdrawn from Canada, as 1,000 were quite sufficient for the ordinary military duties of that colony. The diminution of our army by that number of men would be a sensible relief to the country. He held in his hand a list of the distribution of the troops during the last year. He was instructed by those who were in every respect competent to give an opinion upon such a point to assert that, in Canada, Nova Scotia, and the Leeward Islands, where there were 10,000 troops stationed, one half of the number might be safely spared. Not only were the troops there not wanted, but, in the Leeward Islands especially, the inhabitants most ardently wished all the troops to be withdrawn. He pledged himself to prove that fact, if they would let him, at the bar, by the evidence of those very individuals to whose persons and property these troops were said to afford protection. They considered the force kept up among them disproportionate to the wants of the colonies, and therefore they objected to its continuance. He thought that another mode by which a large diminution in the number of troops employed in the colonies might be effected was, by conciliating the affections of their inhabitants to the government, instead of keeping them, as had been too often the case, under military control and coercion. He was glad to find that a conciliatory policy had been recently adopted by his Majesty's government towards Canada. He had recently seen several letters from Upper Canada, in which the writers stated their satisfaction at the change of policy which had recently taken place there. Within the last six months the conduct of the Government had been so satisfactory that it might withdraw all the troops safely from that colony, and leave its loyal and well-affected inhabitants to defend themselves. As there was no idea of our being engaged in hostilities with the United States, why should the people of England, oppressed as they were by taxation of all sorts, be called upon to keep up in Canada, in time of peace, a force for which there was not the slightest necessity? The right hon. Baronet, in the course of his speech, had given them an account of the proportion which the military bore to the population of the different countries in Europe, but he had not given them an account of the proportion which the military bore to the population of Canada. He would find that, including militia, it was the same proportion which existed in the United States. The right hon. Baronet had told them that there was nearly a million and a half of militia in the United States; but he had not told them that the reason of that was that every male from sixteen to sixty was allowed to bear arms, and that before he could exercise the elective franchise he must be in possession of a musket and suitable accoutrements, with which to take the field at any moment. There were numbers of irregulars of this kind in Canada, and he had no doubt, that with kind treatment at home they would not only be able, but also willing, to defend their country against any attack from the irregulars of the United States. Besides, what could a regular force of 5,000 men, scattered as it must necessarily be on a long line of frontier, do against an American army, without the aid of the Canadians or regulars? He would, however, quit this part of the subject with a single remark, of which he trusted, that the right hon. Baronet would see the force—that America, with a population of 13,000,000, was content with 6,000 regular troops, whilst Great Britain, with a population of 24,000,000, could not be content without 94,000 regular troops. If a policy were adopted towards New South Wales similar to that which had been already adopted towards Canada, he had no doubt that the Government might withdraw every soldier from New South Wales with as much safety as from Canada. In New South Wales the colonists were ready to undertake to support their own military force, on condition of receiving a representative system, and of obtaining thereby the means of raising and managing their own revenue. The taxation raised from the colonists in New South Wales and in Van Diemen's Land was, taken per head of freemen, heavier than the taxation taken per head in England. In England, every man upon the average paid 4l. 10s. in taxation; in New South Wales every man paid 5l. 14s.; and over the disposal of the sum thus paid he had not the slightest control whatsoever. We had to maintain 1,700 troops, and if the reliefs were taken into consideration, not less than 2,400 troops for that colony. Now, if the colonists had the power of raising and managing their own taxes, they would undertake, that Great Britain should have nothing to pay for their military, ordnance, and commissariat. Hence, it was evident, that in this vote questions of principle were involved of the highest importance, not only to the pockets of the people of this country, but also to the safety, tranquillity, and integrity of the empire at large. He contended, that an alteration of the coercive policy which this country adopted towards the Canadian colonies would not only create among them great satisfaction, but be also productive of a great saving to this country. The Canadians had no desire to be separated from this country, but they did not wish to be kept in a state of inferiority and degradation. The bad system of policy which was acted upon with regard to the colonies, converted them from being a source of strength to the mother country, into a cause of weakness and expense; and the people of this country ought to be told that they were paying a tax to support from 30,000 to 33,000 troops in the colonies, besides relays amounting to upwards of 4,500 men, from which numbers as many as 25,000 men might be deducted if the colonies were properly governed. He would venture to say, that if the interests of the colonies were consulted by the Government at home, and their affections conciliated, the number of troops might be reduced from 89,000 to 60,000 men. [The House at this period showed many symptoms of impatience] He was not surprised that hon. Members should feel some impatience at those details; and he assured them, that after having sat there for thirteen hours, he felt as little disposed to enter into them as any one. He should, therefore, say no more regarding the colo- nies, further than to ask the right hon. Secretary at War when this country was to be relieved of the expense of supporting 4,500 men in the Ionian Islands? And he would add, that there was no better field for the Government to show their desire for economy than in the colonies. With regard to Ireland, the House would see that the situation of that country was one which required great consideration. He complained that the Government should adopt coercive measures towards that country, which would oblige this kingdom to incur great expense, merely for the purpose of supporting the Established Church. If the Government were to do away with the Established Church in that country, he (Mr. Hume) would willingly agree to vote a sum for the support of the ministers of religion. Such a measure would save 30,000 men in Ireland. But the saving in the army was not the only benefit which would accrue from such a measure; it would likewise do away with that state of disquiet and insecurity, which must be felt as long as the Suppression of Disturbances' Act was in force; and it would allow men of capital from this country to settle there, which they could not be expected to do as long as even the dread of the Act hung over them. The excuse held out for maintaining a great part of the army was, that a large force being kept up by the continental powers, it was necessary for this country to keep up a corresponding force. But he would beg to ask, what connexion the amount of the continental armies had to do with the military force we ought to maintain? He could conceive that it might be proper to adapt our navy to the navies of the continental powers; but this country, from its situation, being less liable to be attacked than any other, he could see no reason why the armies maintained elsewhere should influence those of this country. As to the army in Ireland, there was, besides the regular military force, a body of police, amounting to 7,000 men, of the expense of which they had received no account, besides militia and yeomanry to the number of 50,000 men. This he considered far too large an establishment for the necessities of the country, and he thought it might be reduced with great propriety, without endangering the peace or security of the empire. It would be found that England, when compared with other countries, had three times their force, and that that force was maintained at double the expense of the force of any power in Europe. The only question at present, however, was, what force was requisite to protect the lives and property of the people, and to maintain the peace of the country? He had no doubt that a much smaller force would be necessary for that purpose than that at present maintained; and that the standing army might safely be reduced from 89,000 to 60,000. There was one other subject to which he would allude—he meant the number of officers. An officer was at present maintained for every eight men, which all military men knew to be excessive. It was three times the number maintained by the East-India Company, or, indeed, in any army in the world. If the House (continued the hon. Member) will go with me in opinion—and God knows how far hon. Members will be inclined to go, for at present they seem more inclined to go to sleeps—they will support me in my Amendment to the Motion before them. I think that the number of men to be voted for the service of the year ought not to be more than was maintained during the Administration of the Duke of Wellington. There are indeed, many reasons why it should be less, for the Continent is not so disturbed, and there is not so much probability of war now as there was then. I shall, however, content myself with moving that the army be reduced to the standard of 1830. I shall, therefore, conclude, by moving—" That the Land Forces be reduced to 81,164 men," being the establishment maintained by the Duke of Wellington.

Major Beauclerk

seconded the Amendment. He complained of the immense army maintained in the colonies, and especially in Corsica and the Greek islands. In the latter, the troops were employed against the liberties of Greece, and in support of the Turks, and created hatred to this country, and suspicion of its intentions. He thought the maintenance of those islands not only useless but mischievous; and the expense, in the present state of the country, was intolerable; he therefore begged to ask the right hon. Secretary at War, why they were not given up to Greece?

Lord Althorp

said, he would place more reliance on the opinion of the hon. and gallant member for Surrey as a civilian than as a military man. He meant that the hon. and gallant Officer had had more time and experience in civil affairs than in military matters. The hon. and gallant Officer had stated that the Ionian Islands were useless, and had called on the right hon. Secretary at War to say why he did not give them up. He thought that the House would allow, that his right hon. friend would be wandering a little out of his department in deciding on what was purely a matter of foreign policy. The hon. and gallant Officer asked, why the Ionian islands were not given up to Greece? He would merely answer, because, though they had at last been able to give a government to that country, still it was so unstable and disorganized, that they could not act towards it as towards an old and settled country. With regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Middlesex, he would remind the House, that the question was not whether the number of men to be voted should be more or less, but whether the number of the army as proposed by the Government was more than sufficient to maintain the peace of the kingdom, and secure the property of his Majesty's subjects. The hon. member for Middlesex had said, that the inhabitants of the Leeward Islands were displeased that there should be so many troops quartered among them. He had never heard that opinion before, and he never was more surprised than when he heard the hon. Member make the assertion. Everyone must see that the state of those colonies was at present very dangerous, and that it would soon be necessary to come to some definite conclusion regarding them; and he did not think that it was when approaching that conclusion, they ought to diminish the force in them. Then, with regard to Ireland, he would ask, was this the time to reduce the force in that country, when they found it necessary to come to Parliament to ask for additional powers in order to enable them to maintain peace within it? He thought that the very worst species of force which could be used was the yeomanry, and he suspected that few of the people of Ireland would feel pleased, were the Government to adopt that species of force. The hon. member for Middlesex had likewise said, that he thought the colony of New South Wales should get a separate Legislature. He (Lord Althorp) was always inclined to give separate Legislatures where the colonies were in a fit state to receive them; but he thought it was a very doubtful question, if a convict colony was exactly the proper one to which to give a separate Legislature. He admitted, that the increase in the continental armies was no reason why this country should maintain a large force. The present force of this country had, however, ample employment at home and in the colonies, without any such reason being held out for maintaining it. He would therefore say that, looking to the state of the colonies and of Ireland, he did not think that the present was a time when the Government could venture to reduce the number of the forces.

Mr. Warburton

wished the discussion not to be prolonged, and the division tobe taken on the next Resolution.

Mr. Wynn

saw good reason, in the state of this country, and in the state of the colonies, to keep up the army; but he saw no reason to keep up this force in the present state of Europe. If a large standing array was to be kept up on the ground of confidence in the Reformed Parliament, Reform would be a curse to the country. It was not a sufficient justification of our keeping up a large army that other States kept up large armies. He and his noble friend (Lord Althorp) had opposed this principle seventeen years ago with success.

Sir John Hobhouse

said, he would agree to the suggestion of the hon. member for Bridport, and consent to take the division on the money grant, and not on the number of men.

Amendment negatived.

The vote of 89,419 men was agreed to.

The House resumed.