HC Deb 18 March 1833 vol 16 cc726-9
Mr. Alderman Wood

presented a Petition from certain persons in the Borough of Southwark, against the Irish Coercive Bill. He begged to state, that on a former occasion, in giving his opinion on that subject, he had been misunderstood, in reference to a Company belonging to the city of London which had land in Ireland. He did not allude to the Merchant Tailors' Company, which had no land in its own possession in Ireland, but to the Fishmongers' Company, to which he himself belonged. That Company had only had their land ten years, during which time they had laid out 70,000l. upon it. The people who lived on it were comfortable and happy, and the only complaint they had to make was against the tithe system.

Colonel Butler

presented a Petition from Kilkenny, against the present Tithe system. The petitioners were of opinion, that if the Government took the Church property into its own hands, it would be possible to exonerate the people from payment of tithes he agreed with them in opinion, and in order to convince the House of the real value of Church property, he would read the particulars of a document which he had carefully gone over. In a parish of the diocese of Ossory, in the county of Kilkenny, not far from where he resided, there was a portion of land, amounting to 407 acres, two roods, and thirty perches, belonging to the Bishop, for which the occupying and ostensible tenants paid a rent of 658l. 5s. 0¼d., being an average of about 32s. an acre. The Bishop of the diocese received from this land, of which he was the head landlord, a rent of only 2s. 6d. per acre, and 1s. 3d. by way of renewal fine, making together 3s. 9d. per acre, or one-eighth, as near as might be of the actual rent paid for the land. The noble Lord (Lord Althorp) when he had spoken about the Bishops not getting above one sixth of the actual value of the land, instead of saying he would take means to enable them to get their full value, and thus support the clergy entirely out of the Church lands, and remit tithes, talked of the vested rights of the tenants and proposed to allow them to perpetuate those rights on the payment of six-years-and-a-half purchase of the rent, they paid a proposition which he must call perpetuating the plunder of the Church. The noble Lord seemed to think that these tenants had a right to take advantage of the situation in which they stood with respect to the Bishops, but he contended that they had no more right to do so, than the peasant who wished to perpetuate his lease under the Rockite system. He had also a Petition to present from Lisdowny against the tithes and praying for a Repeal of the Union.

Mr. Finn

did not want the hon. Alderman behind him to apprise him that a wealthy company having land in Derry was on good terms with its tenantry. It received 84,000l. in rent, and in the course of the year, had expended 70,000l. in improvements, and received of course the blessings which were bestowed on landowners residing on their own property. But Ireland, in general, could not in any way be compared to that condition of things. He knew of a nobleman who was in the receipt of about 20,000l. a-year from Ireland, and 20,000l. from England, and he ventured to assert, that that nobleman did not expend 200l. a year in Ireland. Was it to be wondered at, then, that there should be discontent among the poor tenantry of Ireland? Five millions of money were sent from Ireland to this country every year, and nothing could have been more injurious to Ireland than the system of absenteeism which had so long prevailed. The gentry withdrew from their country—their moral influence was also withdrawn—the employment which a residence there would give to the poor was likewise withdrawn, and everything contributed to distress the already afflicted people of Ireland. In the other House of Parliament it had been stated, as a ground for the necessity of the coercive measure, that Juries in Ireland could not be found to do their duty. One of the petitions presented from Kilkenny had falsified the statement in the most decisive manner, because it stated, that no less than seventy convictions had taken place in Kilkenny itself. He would venture to assert, that instead of no convictions taking place, in the present state of the minds of Jurors, persons would be too easily convicted. He recollected a case in which, by his own exertions, he had saved an innocent person from punishment, after that person had been convicted, because he had felt satisfied in his own mind that that person was innocent, and he was able afterwards to prove to the satisfaction of the Government, that the verdict was wrong. There were also the circumstances concerning the murder of the Mara's, and the execution of the six men who were supposed to have committed the murder, a circumstance which was not to be forgotten. It was shown to demon- stration that no less than five of those individuals who had had been executed, were perfectly innocent of the crime imputed to them. The five real murderers were subsequently discovered, but could not be convicted for want of sufficient evidence, it was true that English and Scotch gentlemen did not know how justice was administered in Ireland. It was true that its administration had been a mockery, but not a mockery in the sense in which Ministers had described it. In Ireland the Administration of justice was a mockery, because the poor were not able to defend themselves, and were compelled to submit to the vexations of the rich and influential.

Petition laid on the Table.