§ Mr. O'Connell moved the third reading of the Dublin Steam-packet Bill. He said, it was not very usual that the third reading of a Bill should be proposed by any other than the Member who had been charged with its progress, but he moved the third reading of this Bill because he thought the subject was one of much importance, and one which he should himself have introduced to the House had he not been so much occupied with Committees. Active means had been used to procure an unusual attendance of Members at that early hour, but he hoped the House would give the Bill a patient consideration, and decide upon it according to its merits. He feared that something beyond private interest had prevailed, and that national hostility had been enlisted against the Bill. Well, he thought he could prove it. The chief objection to the Bill was, that it provided for limited responsibility; but there was an Irish statute, which permitted that in all companies, the object of which was not that of retail trade. That statute had been of so much service to Ireland, that many practical men regretted that it was not applicable to England also. The Dublin Steam-packet Company had been established upon that statute, but, wishing to have the privilege of suing and being sued, without being obliged to have recourse to Courts of Equity, which all men wished to avoid, the Company obtained 1293 a Bill in that House in 1828; and they now wanted merely an addition of 74,000l. to their capital, for the purpose of carrying the original Bill into effect. Surely no man would insist that, because of this, there should be any alteration in the frame work of the Bill as it stood. When the present Bill was brought in, it was met with a spirit of rivalry and hostility by other Companies located on the Thames and on the Clyde, and after sonic opposition it was determined to except these two rivers, by a special clause, from the operation of the Bill; but when the Government became possessed of this information, it very properly objected to the interference of any private interests with a matter of public benefit, and the clause excepting the Clyde and the Thames was struck out. The opposition to the Bill was now renewed. The House should know, that before the establishment of this Company, the river Shannon, which was in many places expanded by extensive lakes, had never been proporly sounded, so as to be made properly navigable without risk; and that this Company had caused proper soundings to be made, and already produced much improvement in the navigation of the river so that Hour which was now ground in Limerick, found its way, by water, direct to Liverpool. It was necessary that these improvements should be completed, and that quays should be erected at various parts of the river, to enable the farmer to bring down his produce, and to permit passengers to be landed from the steamers. As it was, many farmers had now to cart their produce more than a distance of fifteen or eighteen miles, although their farmsteads were within a quarter of a mile of the river. This was in consequence of the shores being composed of alluvial soil. Hon. Gentlemen should understand that the object of the Bill, was to render this beautiful river fully available to the people of Ireland, and then they would not permit it to be thrown aside by any Jealous feeling.
§ Sir Michael S. Stewarthad heard with deep regret the observations of the hon. member for Dublin, imputing national: jealousy as a cause of opposition to the Bill. He most emphatically disclaimed any such feeling on his own part. The House certainly bore the appearance of having been canvassed, but it was not difficult to see in whose favour the canvass was most likely to be. He considered that the Bill of 1828 should not e brought forward as a pre- 1294 cedent, because it was an exceedingly vicious one, as far as regarded the limitation of liability. With respect to capital, 225,000l. was the amount then stipulated, with a clause to the effect that there should be no addition to that amount. But the Bill before the House, in direct contravention to that clause, asked an addition of 74,000l. He opposed the Bill on this account, and also on the principle that all Companies should have a fair stage and no favour, if the Bill was intended as an improvement of the river Shannon, why was it not confined to that river.? He moved as an Amendment, that the Bill be read that day six mouths.
§ Mr. RichardsThe House could not be satisfied with the arguments of the hon. Baronet against the Bill, because they did not go to show that the Bill would be of any injury to the public. The fact was, it would be of public benefit. It was stated in a Report on the state of the river Shannon, in 1830, that these very improvements alluded to by the hon. member for Dublin were necessary, so that in promoting this Bill, hon. Members could not lie charged with promoting a new or unnecessary object. He recollected also that the Report mentioned some of the improvements then carrying on by the spirited conduct of this very Company, and the Bill ought to be supported upon public grounds.
§ Mr. Denis O'ConnorAgreeing most sincerely in the observations of the hon. and learned member for Dublin as to the utility of the measure, he should give it his decided support. In 1828, when this measure was then before the House, the right hon. C. Grant, who was at that time President of the Board of Trade, gave it his assent; and when this Company last year sought precisely the same Bill as they at present did, no opposition was offered to it, except, he believed, by two of the subscribers to the Company, and in consequence of their opposition, the capital was not fixed at 300,000l. as it was then desired. There was no person acquainted with the river Shannon, who must not be aware of the extraordinary improvement which would be made to the navigation of that river, if this additional sum had been invested as it was proposed to be. The town of Roscommon was within four miles of that river, but the inhabitants were obliged to carry their articles of traffic to Sligo, a distance of forty miles, because they had no means of approaching the river 1295 forwarding their commodities by it through Dublin. Under these circumstances he appealed to the House, whether a Bill which sought to obtain an additional capital of 74,000l. in order to facilitate the approaches to the river Shannon ought to be rejected? No new principle was sought to be introduced, for the principle of a limited responsibility was already recognized in the existing act.
Mr. Emerson Tennenlsaid, by a paper which he held in his hand it appeared that, should the 74.,000l. now sought to be added to the capital of the Company, he permitted by this House to be raised, it was to be procured by the sale of shares, in the Company, which originally brought 50l. each, but which were now to be offered at 38l.; so that, so far from there being any advantage realized, the property already embarked in the Company, was shown to have suffered a deterioration of twenty-four per cent. The hon. and learned member for Dublin had endeavoured to show, that the opposition to this Bill originated in a national jealousy of Irish prosperity, and was carried on by a Scotch party in that House, who acted solely from prejudiced motives; now he (Mr. E. Tennent) hoped that his opposition, at least, as an Irish Member, could not be attributable to such an unworthy impulse. He had been instructed by his constituents, the merchants of Belfast, to look closely after the progress of this Bill, because they considered it to seek for powers which were subversive of the principles of free trade and honourable competition, and exemptions from liability which were incompatible with the security which the public had a right to possess with a great commercial body such as the present Company. It was originally proposed, as it was now, to increase the capital of the Company 70,000l. beyond the present amount of 225,000l., and after the most deliberate consideration, it was refused, under circumstances which did not appear in the present Bill. The same parties who then applied for an increase of 70,000l., now apply for a similar increase of 74,000l.; they then offered to insert in their Bill a clause suggested by Lord Shaftesbury, in accordance with the orders of the House of Lords, to the effect, "that not one fraction of this sum should be applied to any use till the value was bonâ fide subscribed and funded in the Bank of Ireland." Notwithstanding their proffered compliance with this salutary restrictive claus, the House of Commons, in 1828, 1296 after due consideration, refused the proposed increase. And yet the same individuals now applied, on the same grounds, for even an increased amount, and he could not find the slightest mention of this restrictive provision in the entire Bill. But not only was this additional sum of 74,000l. sought for for the purposes of fair trading by the Company, but he found another clause in the Bill, by which the Company were empowered to accumulate an additional 50,000l., by sums reserved at the discretion of the directors out of the profits previous to the dividends. This sum was professedly for the purpose of meeting contingences. What was the object of this enormous contingency fund? It was plainly this, that if any minor speculator or shipowner presumed to place a vessel on a line already occupied by the Dublin Steam Navigation Company, this fund was to be available for his destruction. This was the extraordinary contingency against which the company proposed to fund this ample provision. It was in reality a fund for crushing marine enterprise, and deterring other merchants from honourable competition. The hon. and learned member for Dublin, and his (Mr. E. Tennent's) hon. friend the member for Roscommon (Mr. O'Connor) had both put forward in forcible terms the advantages of this Bill, as tending to promote the improvement of Ireland generally, and of the Shannon in particular. He was as anxious as any man in the House for the promotion of this desirable object; but he did not wish to see it done in this indirect way. He did not like to see a measure for the improvement of Ireland hampered with the objectionable matter with which it was associated in this Bill. If the hon. and learned Member below him chose to bring in a specific Bill for this important object, he would give it his warmest support, but he thought it unworthy of such an object to introduce to the House a Bill pregnant with the mischief to other commercial parties, suppressive of a free trade in shipping, and seeking for a pernicious exemption from liabilities to which all other traders were subject; and then to hope to secure the sympathy of the House by professing that all this was simply for the improvement of the Shannon. For a purpose so intimately connected with the interests of Ireland he would be willing to vote not only 74,000l. but any sum that might be requisite—but to the present measure from the motives he had detailed, he was compelled, by his duty to his constituents, 1297 and his regard for the interests of Belfast, to offer his most decided opposition.
§ Colonel Conollysaid, he thought it rather extraordinary that hon. Members who, day after day, were in the habit of complaining of the influx of Irish paupers into England, should, on the present occasion, object to the Bill, which, by employing the people of Ireland, must naturally tend to relieve England to a great extent from the evil complained of If hon. Members would but consult the interests of the whole empire, they would see that the laying out 74,000l. in improving the navigation of the Shannon was a subject deserving of their most serious attention. He lived between the two great canals, and could state that they did little more at present than pay the expense attendant upon their management, whereas, if the inland navigation were improved, the effect would not be confined to the more easy transmission of agricultural produce in the immediate neighbourhood of the canals, but would have the effect of stimulating the agriculture in the more remote parts of Ireland. He believed that many of the complaints against the Grand Jury system in Ireland arose from the expense incurred in order to facilitate the transmission of the produce for export. The Bill before the House would relieve Grand Juries to a certain extent from the necessity of imposing local burthens; and as it would facilitate the exportation of the produce of the country, give employment to the people, and thereby relieve England, the Bill should have his most cordial support.
Sir Hussey Viviandid not know, until he came into the House, that such a Bill was before it, and because he thought it would be most useful in relieving Ireland that he should vote for the third reading of the Bill. Hon. Members ought to bear in mind that Ireland was peculiarly circumstanced, and that general principles could not be always with justice or prudence applied to that country. He knew of what vast importance, it was, that the navigation of the Shannon should be improved, and therefore he should give the Bill his most cordial support.
§ Mr. William Rochesaid, I trust that the explanation and proposition just now offered by my hon. and learned friend, the member for Dublin, will prove satisfactory, will conciliate any further opposition, and permit the Bill to be brought up on Monday in a shape which now appears calculated 1298 to remove those objections and apprehensions previously entertained—Sir, as to the accumulation of the fund complained of, amounting to about 30,000l. I consider such a provision against those casualties, which human transactions are liable to, a wise and judicious protection, and one deserving of imitation by all companies, instead of permitting the whole of their income and profits to be squandered in large and premature dividends, leaving no surplus or protecting fund to meet a moment of emergency or period of disadvantage and disappointment. Sir, connected as I am with Limerick, the principal city on the line of the Shannon, I have reason to know, that the capital already subscribed has been most usefully expended as regards the public interests, and, I believe, with equal judgment as regards those of the Company itself, for the prudence and foresight manifested in the appointment of the reserve or protective fund, to which I have referred, are, in themselves, a pleasing guarantee, that permanent good results, and not mere present eclat, will be the governing principle of the Company's conduct. Under these impressions and expectations, I am Sir, of opinion, that the Company has entitled itself to the very moderate augmentation they apply for 75,000l. so as to raise their capital to 300,000l. the sum, in fact, originally contemplated, but which augmentation the increasing sphere of their operations now more imperatively demands. Sir, that an improvement of the line of the Shannon is a most interesting and important, as well as national undertaking, penetrating as it does, the centre of Ireland, and resembling in its relative position and advantages (if I may compare small things to great) the majestic stream of the Mississipi in North America, cannot be doubted, and most moderate indeed is the increase asked for to carry that improvement into more effectual execution. In order to demonstrate how greatly and how grievously this noble river stands in need of improvement, I shall take the liberty of reading a passage from the evidence given before the Committee by that most respectable and intelligent gentleman, C. L. Burgoyne. He was asked—"Now what was found to be the state of the Shannon in respect of the facility of communication along it"; to which he replied—"It was found to be in a most deserted and disgraceful state—I must say generally, a disgraceful state." "Again, do you know anything of the operations of this Steam Navigation Company on that river— 1299 you have staled something about them in your Report? It has produced (said Colonel Burgoyne) a trade which never existed before, and, that cannot exist without steam." Sir, the immense capabilities of Ireland are conceded on all hands; and it is most gratifying to perceive the disposition evinced during; this debate to render these great capabilities available. I, therefore, trust that no mere technicality nor no jealousy of rival companies will retard so beneficial a purpose. To any unfair advantage—to anything savouring of monopoly no one can be more inimical than I am, but it must be recollected that capital does not abound in Ireland as in this country, that improvements on a large scale are novel, and, therefore, undertaken with a timid hand, consequently, that some larger share of encouragement and facility is due and advisable as regards co-operative exertions for the improvement of Ireland. I hope, therefore. Sir, that the Bill will be brought up on Monday, divested of any fair objection, and that it will be permitted to proceed to its completion, with a view to accelerate that great desideratum—"the employment of the people," which in every country is the basis of national tranquillity and happiness, but in no country, more necessary and desirable than in Ireland, where such a disparity unfortunately exists between the amount of population and the present state of its employment.
§ Mr. Robert Wallacesaid, that lie found among the Members of this intended company Judges, merchants, bankers, and ladies. He must confess, that was the first time he had known the dignitaries of the law descend to the character of traders.
§ Sir Michael S. Stewartmoved the adjournment of the debate till Monday.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that the Bill as it stood increased the reserved sum from 30,000l. to 50,000l. Now, he would undertake on Monday, to bring up a clause leaving the reserved sum at 30,000l. With respect to the 74,000l., he should also be prepared with a clause limiting its outlay to the improvement of the Shannon. There were clauses originally in the Bill, laying on tolls and regulating valuation juries, but these had been withdrawn. He had obtained leave from the House to bring in a general bill, which he would present on Monday, regulating the tolls, &c. upon the rivers and estuaries in Ireland. To this bill the Vice-President of the Board of Trade did not object. If the general Act should not pass, then the company must 1300 make the best contracts they could, but no man would be coumelled to sell. With respect to the 74,000l., he repeated it should be entirely laid out upon the Shannon, in improving the navigation, in building quay s, docks, and warehouses, and improving the roads leading to the Shannon.
§ Mr. Pottersaid, that when an hon. Member spoke of the company being composed of judges, lawyers, and ladies, he omitted lo state, that the principal merchants of Dublin and Manchester, who were concerned in trade between Ireland and England, were shareholders in this company. He felt considerable surprise, that objections should be raised to the investment of capital in Ireland, where it was so much wanted. He well remembered the establishment of the Company, and was sure the greatest advantages had arisen to both countries from it. This Company was established by Mr. Williams, and it was considered a most hazardous undertaking. Before the establishment of this Company, which was the first between Dublin and Liverpool, the greatest inconvenience arose to the trade. Fat cattle could not be shipped with safety, and it was no uncommon circumstance that goods shipped at Dublin did not arrive at Liverpool for six weeks, and in some instances for two months. He (Mr. Potter) had frequently bought linens in the linen-hall of Dublin on a Friday, and by moans of this Company, received them in Manchester on the Monday following. By means of steam-navigation, the drapers in the interior of Ireland now frequented the markets of Manchester and Yorkshire, which opened a new trade to the advantage of both parties.
§ The debate was adjourned to Monday.