§ Sir John Tyrellwished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and in doing so, he should take the opportunity of making one observation. The question he wished to put was, whether his Majesty's Government had it in contemplation to introduce any measure into that House, to afford a legal provision for the poor of Ireland? The observation with which he wished to accompany this question was, that it could not but appear strange to all men who observed the course of parties in that House, that whilst 1149 much of their time had been employed in high-flown discussions about Ireland, and benefits withheld, and benefits to be bestowed, there had not been, from any one of the zealous speakers on the question of Ireland, a proposition for the introduction of the Poor-laws into that country. Indeed, he believed that the hon. and learned member for Dublin was opposed to their introduction.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that the question was one which he should feel little difficulty in answering. Before any one resolved that Poor-laws ought to be introduced into Ireland, he must resolve what description of Poor-laws was necessary, what should be their extent, and on what principle they should be founded. As to the observation which the hon. Member had made, he surely must know, that there was no question on which all parties were more divided among themselves than that of the Poor-laws, and that was especially the case with the Members from Ireland among whom the difference of opinion existed, without reference to political or to religious sentiments. The difference of opinion, in fact, was that which all honest and consistent men might conscientiously entertain, when trying to form a satisfactory judgment on so important a subject. Under these circumstances, he did not think it matter of blame to the Ministers, that, among the multitude of affairs to which they had to direct their attention, they had not been able to bring before the House the subject of affording a legal provision for the poor of Ireland. He thought, indeed, that if there was one subject of blame more to be feared by the Government than another, it was that of bringing in measures for the relief of the poor, crudely prepared, and brought in for the sake of catching at popularity, rather than from any well-grounded confidence of their excellence, or any firm and settled conviction that they were right, both in principle and details, and were calculated to produce benefit to the people at large. After having thus expressed his opinion, he should only add, that his Majesty's Government were not, at this moment, prepared to bring in a measure for giving Poor-laws to Ireland.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that the question relative to the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland was a most important one. The hon. member for Essex had done him injustice when he stated that he (Mr. O'Connell) was opposed to the introduce- 1150 tion of any system of Poor-laws into that country. He was opposed only to such a system as would give food to a man in perfect health, and capable of working, and would interfere with the carefulness which ought to enter into the management of every person's affairs, and with the natural affection that subsisted between children and their parents. he, however, had no objection to a system which would make provision for the blind, the lame, the insane, and those incapable of work—to a system, in short, which would relieve and not increase the poor of Ireland. Dr. Doyle was a decided advocate of the Poor-laws, and the majority of the Catholic clergy took the same view of the question. They beheld the misery and wretchedness of the poor in Ireland, and, anxious to afford them present relief, they consulted their feelings rather than their judgment, and did not take an enlarged view of the subject. He should be happy to introduce one sort of Poor-laws, and would make the attempt at once, if the hon. member for Essex would pledge himself to give his assistance. Dr. Doyle had suggested the application of the ecclesiastical revenues for such a purpose. Would the hon. member for Essex assist him in carrying that suggestion into effect. They were now about to reduce ten Bishoprics in Ireland. He was willing to consent that the amount of the revenues of these ten Bishoprics should be applied for the benefit of the poor. Or they might take the other part of the suggestion of Dr. Doyle. Dr. Doyle proposed, that those revenues should be devoted to the promotion of public works, whereby employment might be afforded to the poor. The scheme was worth trying by way of an experiment, and it would afford a great relief to those parts of the country which were at present heavily assessed to furnish the means of carrying on public works. Half of the whole rent-roll of the county of Kerry was mortgaged for Countycess. The right hon. Secretary was right in saying, that no political or religious feeling was mixed up with the question of the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland, as a proof of which he might mention, that his opinions upon this subject coincided with those of the hon. member for Sligo (Colonel Perceval), with whom he seldom agreed on questions connected with politics or religion, for he had the misfortune to differ on one of those subjects, and was 1151 bound to differ on the other. In conclusion, he must declare, that it would be wrong to lend the authority of Government to a proposal for introducing a system which would change all the relations of society in Ireland.
Subject dropped.