§ On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the Slavery Abolition Bill was recommitted. On the Committee coming to Clause 10th, relating to apprenticeships,
§ Mr. Fowell Buxtonproposed to add to it this proviso:—"That where the legal quantity of provisions was not given to the slave, and that was made apparent to three Justices, and that where, on demand being legally made for such quantity, in consequence of an order issued by those three Justices, a refusal to comply with the order was given, an end should be put to the apprenticeship of the slave, and he should be released from his indentures."
Mr. Secretary Stanleyobjected to the Amendment. The principle of the Bill was to leave these minor details to the Local Legislatures, and it would be an unwise deviation from the general rule to fix a specific penalty for the violation of local enactments. He requested Mr. Fowell Buxton to leave it to Government to frame instructions to the Governors of the different colonies. If those instructions should not be attended to, then Parliament would be at liberty to interfere.
§ Amendment withdrawn.
§ Mr. Bernardproposed an Amendment, to the effect that the laws applying to the apprenticeship of freemen should be applicable to the slaves when apprenticed, after June 1st, 1834.
Mr. Secretary Stanleyopposed the Motion. The laws as to apprenticeship were not in force in the colonies, and the Amendment, therefore, would be of no avail.
§ Amendment withdrawn.
§ Mr. Fowell Buxtonsaid, that the next consideration which he had to press upon the attention of the Committee was the necessity which existed for taking especial care to ensure to the children who should be born alter this Bill had passed, all the blessings of freedom to which they were therein declared to be entitled. Another consideration for their attention was, the fact that as the condition of slavery degraded and debased the human mind to a degree to render those who had once endured it scarcely capable of receiving that advantage from freedom which freemen ought to have, he thought that all children under the age of six years ought to be exempted from the term of apprenticeship, in order that they having altogether escaped the debasement consequent upon slavery, might arrive at manhood in a frame of mind equal to bear their free condition, and to avail themselves of that blessing. These reasons, he considered, were sufficiently strong to justify him in proposing an Amendment to the clause to that effect.
Mr. Secretary Stanleysaid, that perhaps he might be able to offer some strong objections to the hon. Member's intended Amendments, which would have the effect of saving the Chairman the trouble of putting them. In the first place he was ready to admit that the apprenticeship of the negro was a choice of evils, and was only to be looked upon in that light. In the second place, the apprenticeship of the negro infant was a humane provision intended to guard against the possibility of 338 an orphan, or a child of parents unequal to its support, being cast upon the world without any means of livelihood, and consequently of being subjected to the chance of starvation. If this were not done and the master were compelled to support such destitute children, it would be an additional hardship on him, against which, however, the Bill fully guarded by giving him in return the advantage of the child's labour, such as it might be. The Amendment of the hon. Member, therefore, if carried, would only defeat his own humane intentions.
§ Dr. Lushingtonsaid, that if he thought the clause was to extend only to destitute children, he should not object, but he feared that the effect would be to carry slavery to a much greater extent than was intended by the principle of the Bill. When he found that there was in most of the colonies, a fund for destitute children, and when he found that the number of whites relieved by that find was as nearly twenty to one compared to those of the black population, though the latter were so much more numerous, he thought it would be no great addition to the burthens of that fund if all the children of the black population who might be left destitute should be thrown upon it. Even if it were a small increase of expense, and he did not think it could be very great, it would be better to adopt that course than place the children in such a state of half bondage until they attained the age of twenty-one years.
Mr. Secretary Stanleysaid, that the children thus apprenticed would be in the same situation as apprenticed labourers. The clause was, that if any such children under six years of age should be destitute—that was, without parents or any friends to claim them—the special magistrate should be authorized to apprentice the child to the master, or to any other person, as circumstances might render necessary.
§ Dr. Lushingtonwas not satisfied with the proof that the child would not be able to support itself. [Mr. Stanley here observed, that that would be decided by the special magistrate.] He was not, however, satisfied with that mode of deciding. He thought the clause quite nugatory as applied to slave children.
§ Mr. Briscoetook the same view of the case as the hon. and learned Member who spoke last, and would take the sense of the House on the clause.
§ The Committee divided on the Amendment: Ayes 30; Noes 65—Majority 35.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Brotherton, J. | Harland, W. C. |
| Blake, Sir F. | Hawes, B. |
| Burdett, Sir F. | Humphery, J. |
| Briscoe, I. | Johnstone, A. |
| Buckingham, J. S. | Lushington, S. |
| Brocklehurst, J. | O'Dwyer, A. C. |
| Christmas, W. | Plumptre, J. P. |
| Collier, John. | Ruthven, E. S. |
| Cornish, James | Sinclair, G. |
| Ewart, W. | Sullivan, R. |
| Evans, W. | Tooke, W. |
| Fenton, John | Vigors, N. A. |
| Faithfull, G. | Wedgwood, J. |
| Fancourt, C. S. J. | Wilks, J. |
| Goring, H. D. | TELLER. |
| Hardy, John | Buxton, F. |
§ Mr. Hardyproposed that the indentures of female apprenticed negroes do expire when they reach their eighteenth year; that being a marriageable age.
§ The Committee divided on the Motion: Ayes 37; Noes 43—Majority against the Amendment 6.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Aglionby, H. A. | Lushington, Dr. |
| Barnard, F. G. | Mullins, F. W. |
| Blake, Sir F. | Oswald, J. |
| Bouverie,— | O'Dwyer, A. C. |
| Brodie, W. B. | Plumptre, J. P. |
| Buckingham, J. S. | Potter, R. |
| Buxton, T. F. | Ruthven, E. |
| Evans, W. | Sheppard, T. |
| Ewart, W. | Skipwith, Sir G. |
| Faithfull, G. | Sinclair, G. |
| Fitzgerald, T. | Sullivan, R. |
| Gisborne, T. | Tooke, W. |
| Handley, W. F. | Tower, C. T. |
| Hawes, B. | Vigors, N. A. |
| Harland, W. C. | Wedgwood, J. |
| Hume, J. | Wilks, J. |
| Humphery, J. | Williams, Colonel |
| Johnston, A. | Wilmot, Sir E. |
| Locke, W. |
§ The original Clause agreed to.
§ Mr. Secretary Stanley moved to strike out the 53rd clause, in order to substitute a provision extending the 52nd George 3rd, to colonies, wherein acts repealed by that statute were still in force. In all other cases he was willing to leave matters as they stood. The effect of the change would be in favour of Dissenters.
§ Mr. Fowell Buxtonwished to know whether Government had received information from Jamaica of any disposition on the part of the legislative assembly to defray the expense of rebuilding the chapels that had been destroyed in that island?
Mr. Secretary Stanleycould not say that he had heard of any such steps having been taken; but the subject would be one of the earliest submitted by the Government to the consideration of the local Legislature.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ Lord Althorpbrought up the clauses providing for the raising of the grant of 20,000,000l. He observed that it had been suggested by the right hon. member for Harwich to introduce a proviso enacting that no money should be raised under the Act except during the sitting of Parliament; and, further, that the terms of the contract should be laid on the Table. He saw no objection to this. It was understood that the Legislature was pledged that the loan should be positively raised, but it was right that Parliament should have an immediate check upon the Government as to the terms of the contract.
§ Lord Althorpreplied, that the contract made by the Government would be final, but Ministers would be liable to the censure of the House if the terms were disapproved of.
§ Mr. Humethought that Parliament should have a control over the terms of the loan—at least the House ought to know the plan of providing for the interest.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that the interest must be provided for by Parliament at the time: he had frequently before stated that the mode contemplated was by a tax on colonial produce. When the contract for the loan was made and charged on the Consolidated Fund, he was sure that if a necessity arose for supplying any deficiency in the Consolidated Fund, Parliament would be prepared to do so; but he did not know that there would be any necessity fur a new tax at all: the revenue was progressive, and would necessarily continue so (such was his opinion). However, if a new tax should be necessary to provide for the interest, it would be for Parliament to decide in what manner it should be imposed.
§ Lord Althorpanswered that it would: there was a provision in the clauses he had brought up to that effect. However, there was one exception to an open contract, which was, in case the Commissioners for the redemption of the national debt should be able to undertake the matter without going into the market at all.
§ Mr. Wilkswas not unwilling to pledge the Legislature to a grant of 20,000,000l, but thought that the terms of the contract should depend on the ratification of Parliament—a reformed House of Commons ought not to trust any Ministry to the extent now proposed.
§ Lord Althorpobserved, that the mode in which it was proposed to raise the loan would be the most advantageous both for the West-India proprietors and the public. It would enable the Commissioners for the management of the national debt to make the best bargain they could for the public.
§ Mr. Wilkssaid, that Parliament had always, in the instance of former loans (and of loans, too, of a far greater amount), reserved to itself the power to determine the terms on which the loans should be raised, without trusting altogether to the discretion of Government; and he thought that practice should be still adhered to.
The Clauses empowering the Commissioners for the management of the national debt to raise the loan in question in the shape of annuities, and specifying the manner in which the operation was to be conducted, were brought up, read, and agreed to.
§ The House resumed—Report to be received.