HC Deb 02 April 1833 vol 17 cc36-49

On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the House resolved itself into a Committee on Church Temporalities (Ireland).

Lord Althorp

said, that in moving the second Resolution, he felt it necessary to make a very few observations. The discussion which took place last night, and the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, had a very close application to what he was about to state. The right hon. Gentleman and others objected to the principle of laying the tax on the present incumbents for the purpose of relieving the people of Ireland from the Vestrycess. In making that proposition, some time ago, he observed that he had every reason to believe, from all the inquiries which his Majesty's Government had made on the subject, that the clergy of the Church of Ireland would not feel any objection to the tax which was about to be thus imposed on them. His right hon. friend, Mr. Stanley, who was not now a Member of the House, had written down what he had authorized him (Lord Althorp) to state with reference to this point. His right hon. friend said, "In all the conversations which I have had with the primates and the clergy, there never was any objection taken to the principle of taxing the present incumbents. Many of them expressed an anxious wish to me that no difference should be made between them and their successors." When he spoke thus on the occasion to which he referred, he therefore had reason to hope that the clergy of Ireland had no objection to the proposition. That was the foundation on which he expressed his opinion. Now, it undoubtedly did turn out that many of the clergy of Ireland did object to the system of taxation proposed; and he was perfectly ready to say, that if any other mode of relieving the people of Ireland from the Vestry-cess could be pointed out or discovered, which would be advantageous to the clergy, by rendering the proposed tax unnecessary, he should not object to it. It was, however, under all circumstances, an object of such importance that the Vestry-cess in Ireland should cease—of such importance to the Church itself—of such importance to the interests of the Establishment in Ireland—and almost to the very existence of the Church—that this cause of dissatisfaction should be removed—that he could not recede from it. He did not think that, in making this proposition, he was inflicting any hardship on individuals, and still less did he feel, that he was submitting to the House a project which was at variance with the interests of the Church. The Committee must see, that the proposition did not apply to the present incumbents only, but that it imposed the tax generally. If, however, in the consideration of this question, any mode could be found for providing for the Vestry-cess without touching the present incumbents, he should be most glad to adopt it. But still he must contend that, if such a substitute were not found, it was yet most desirable that the sacrifice contemplated should be made for the interests of Ireland, and especially for the interests of the Church of Ireland. To protect and relieve the people of Ireland it was desirable that this Vestry-cess should no longer be levied. The right hon. Gentleman last night confined himself almost entirely to the poor clergy; he, however, could not see, in the present state of information on the subject, how he could alter the tax as it was now proposed to be collected. He should be well pleased, however, if any other mode were shown by which the impost could be avoided. The right hon. Gentleman had argued the question on the effect which this tax would have on the parochial clergy in Ireland, and he had adduced many instances of the severe privations which it would impose. But the Committee would observe, that a very large portion of the tax would not fall on the parochial clergy, but on the hierarchy of Ireland; and the argumentum ad misericordiam could not, therefore, be advanced with all that force and effect which the right hon. Gentleman seemed last night to attach to it. The right hon. Gentleman stated, that in the proposition which had been brought forward no distinction was made between the different sorts of Vestry-cess in Ireland. Now, on the grounds which he had laid down before, he had confined himself to that cess which was levied by exclusively Protestant vestries. There was a great distinction between that and the other regular charges on the land, which varied according to circumstances, as the right hon. Gentleman had said. But the hardship on the people was, that a Vestry exclusively Protestant had at present the right of increasing at their pleasure an assessment which others who had no share in apportioning it were obliged to pay. This was a hardship that pressed peculiarly on the people of Ireland, and therefore the Roman Catholic owners and occupiers of land felt it severely. He must again insist on the necessity of removing the Vestry-cess, and must say, that if no other mode could be devised for getting rid of it, Parliament had better agree to the proposition of his Majesty's Ministers. With respect to the proposition of the right hon. member for Montgomeryshire, that the schedule which was appended to the Bill should be attached to this Resolution, it appeared to him that it would make no difference in the discussion, whether it were placed there or not. He, therefore, felt no unwillingness to concede the point.

Sir Robert Peel

had last night made an appeal to the justice of the House, and if that appeal had been successful, the House would not be to blame in listening to it and doing justice. He hoped that the noble Lord concurred in his views, that if the Vestry-cess ought to be abolished, it ought not to be imposed on the present incumbents. If the noble Lord concurred in that, he would ask him not to force the Committee to come to a division. The noble Lord said, that the removal of the cess was necessary, but he believed the noble Lord had overrated the burthen. The noble Lord stated it at 60,000l.; but let the noble Lord inquire further, and he would find the exclusive Vestry-cess did not amount to so much. Let the noble Lord too, above all, consider, that it was not necessary to pass the Resolutions immediately. Perhaps, if the Vestry-cess were abolished immediately, the noble Lord could provide for it by a vote of public money. [Lord Althorp was understood to say across the Table that he meant to do that for the present year.] Why, then, if the noble Lord intended it, let him not hasten the question to decision—let him not make it a party dispute. He was ready to meet the noble Lord half-way. All he asked at present was, that the noble Lord should grant them a short delay. Let the noble Lord withdraw the Resolutions and introduce them after the recess, and after an opportunity of fully considering the subject. He was ready to concede the principle, that the Vestry-cess should be abolished, and a provision made for the charges which that cess was levied to defray out of the revenues of the Church. But he asked for delay, that the arrangement should be just as well as complete.

Lord Althorp

said, as there would be many opportunities to amend the Resolutions in a future stage, he hoped that no delay would then be interposed. The second Resolution being a money Resolution must be again moved in a Committee of the whole House. He believed that there was then an understanding between him and the right hon. Gentleman, that the Amendment should not be moved. He proposed that they should assent to the Resolutions, and that provision should be made hereafter, that those Resolutions should not be carried further than the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman.

Sir Robert Peel

hoped, that the noble Lord, as a Minister of the Crown, would expressly admit, that all existing; interests should be exempted. If that were the case, he was little inclined to stickle for forms, and should advise his hon. friends to permit the Resolutions to pass, with the understanding that they should not be restricted in proposing any alterations in the Bill they thought proper hereafter. It was most proper, in consenting to these Resolutions, that they should take care that existing interests were not exposed to difficulties.

Mr. Wynn

, said, that the Committee ought not to vote a general sum without knowing what was the actual sum required. It was usual for Committees to vote not merely that a tax should be levied, but that a tax should be levied of a certain amount. The noble Lord did not seem to be quite certain of the amount of the exclusive Vestry-cess, and that should be precisely stated before the Resolutions were voted. It would be better, in his opinion, to delay the whole matter till after the holidays, or at least till Government could put the House into possession of correct information as to the sum demanded.

Lord Althorp

said, the argument of the right hon. Gentleman opposite related to the difference between taxing the present and the future incumbents. On that point he did not think the Committee could then come to a decision. The right hon. Gentleman was willing to let the Resolutions pass, provided he (Lord Althorp) admitted a certain qualification which was formerly alluded to—or, if that were declined, provided that he would, as a member of the Government, pledge them not to bring forward a proposition for imposing a tax on the present incumbents. Situated as he was, he could only say, that he was prepared to give the proposition his most serious consideration. That he would say, and more he could not say.

Mr. Shaw

certainly thought, that in common justice, the existing interests of the present incumbents should not be burthened with this tax. The noble Lord had greatly exaggerated the amount of Vestry-cess that was devoted to purely ecclesiastical purposes when he estimated it at 60,000l. or 70,000l. a-year. He (Mr. Shaw) had taken great pains to ascertain the amount levied by the exclusive vestries, and the result of his inquiry was, that it did not amount to more than 28,000l. per annum. He believed that it averaged about 20l. for every parish Church in Ireland. Now, he would beg to propose as a substitute for that cess, if it was to be done away with, that as there was a debt due to the Board of First Fruits of 400,000l., that sum should be paid, and put out at interest, so as to make up for the amount of this cess. The surplus of the revenues of the Bishopric of Derry might be also applied to that purpose. He felt indebted to the noble Lord for the concessions which he had made, and he was therefore inclined to go as far as he could to meet him; but he must say that the principle of the Bill could never meet with his concurrence. It went to invade all the rights of property, and unquestionably its tendency was to exterminate the Protestant religion in Ireland. He hoped that the tax which the noble Lord intended to impose would not be thrown solely upon the clergy, but that the absentees and the landed proprietors would be made to bear their proportion of it. Above all, the lay impropriators ought to bear a full share. In one diocese alone according to the Parliamentary Returns; the income of lay impropriators under the Tithe Composition Act, was above 12,000l. per annum, and a large income besides, from land not compounded for, and yet the whole sum annually paid in that diocese by impropriators for the service of the Church, was but 80/. Was it, then, just to tax the clergyman—not only for his awn parish from which he did derive an income, but also for the neighbouring parish of a lay impropriator from which the Church derived no income? The clergy of Ireland had, for the last few years, been suffering under the most accumulated oppression. Not long since, they had their incomes reduced, on an average, of from ten to twenty per cent under the Tithe Composition Act, in order to secure a quiet and certain payment. Then, last year, fifteen per cent to the landlords, with the prospect of a further loss, by selling their interests at sixteen years' purchase, and buying land at twenty; and were they in addition to all that, to suffer a loss of from five to fifteen per cent by the present measure? Would any other profession bear such injustice? Would the officers of the Army suffer themselves to be taxed for the building and repairing barracks; or lawyers for Courts of Justice? No; but they were represented in the House, and the clergy were unrepresented. He entreated hon. Members to grant the same measure of justice to that oppressed and comparatively defenceless body, which they would require for themselves. He was sure that if the noble Lord would re-consider the question, he would have no difficulty in finding a substitute for this tax. He had no wish to divide the House, or go further into the question at present, as it seemed to be the general feeling that it would be better that the question should not be now discussed. He trusted, however, that the noble Lord would consent to introduce the words he had suggested into this Resolution. It should be recollected that the clergy were in a situation of the greatest distress, and that for the last three years they had received hardly any of their incomes. He had a statement which was read at the meeting over which the Bishop of London presided, and in the correctness of which he reposed implicit faith—showing that the large majority of the Irish clergy had received comparatively little of their incomes for the last two years and a half. At present the clergy had to depend upon any assistance which might be afforded them by the humane, and those who could respect their distress, and appreciate their privations. They had to struggle with the greatest difficulties. He knew the privations which many learned and pious clergymen and their families had been exposed to. It would be painful to the House if he were to state circumstances which had come to his knowledge on this subject. It was only yesterday morning that he received a communication from an old and high-minded clergyman of the Established Church in Ireland, in which he stated that his family and himself were denying themselves in every way, and that they spent only 3s. a week in bread, the rest of their sustenance being made up by potatoes, of which (he thanked God!) there had been a fine crop. He added, that his whole family bore their privations with the greatest cheerfulness. This letter was not written in the spirit of complaint, nor could the writer have the least idea that any portion of it would be made public. He was sure that there was not a man in the House who would not cheerfully contribute to relieve the clergy from such a miserable situation. He had also been informed, by a friend of his, that he had lately visited a clergyman in the county of Cork, who was in such a state of destitution as to be able to afford bread only to his wife, who was sick, the rest of the family being obliged to put up with potatoes. He had known others who had been obliged to adopt similar food; some had been compelled to withdraw their children from school, and others had been obliged to rely entirely on the kindness of their friends. Now, could they conceive anything more painful to the feelings of a clergyman and a gentleman than to be placed in such a situation? He had mentioned these circumstances in order to satisfy the noble Lord that the condition of the clergy of Ireland was such as to entitle them to the utmost forbearance on the part of the Government and Parliament. He had known many instances in which they had been compelled to give up the insurances they had effected on their lives, and upon which they relied, as on a certain provision for their families, after their deaths. He really did not see any more reason why the clergy should be solely taxed for the preservation of the Churches, than lawyers should be compelled to build and keep up the Courts of Justice. It should be recollected that the clergy were not represented in that House, the lawyers and the officers of the Army and Navy were. He trusted, that, at all events, the present incumbents would not be taxed, and that, even in reference to its future collection, the noble Lord would not throw this tax entirely on the clergy, but that it should also fall upon the landed proprietors and the absentees.

Lord Althorp

said, that he had already stated all that he could state in reply to the right hon. Baronet, and he thought that what he had stated had satisfied that right hon. Gentleman. It appeared, however, that the hon. and learned Gentleman who had last spoken was not satisfied with that statement. Now, he was not prepared to agree in the views of that hon. and learned Member. Supposing that the present incumbents should be relieved from this tax, yet the hon. and learned Gentleman would not be satisfied if the amount of the tax for the purposes intended should be solely drawn from the revenues of the Church, by a deduction from the incomes of individual clergymen who were not as yet incumbents. The hon. and learned Gentleman was therefore against imposing this tax even upon the incomes of future incumbents. To such a principle as that he could not assent. Looking at the state of the Irish Church and the amount of its revenues, he was of opinion that the tax substituted for, and to be devoted to the purposes of this cess, should be deducted from the incomes, not of the present, but of the future incumbents.

Mr. Goulburn

said, he would sacrifice all the objections which he had to other parts of the noble Lord's proposition—and they were many—if the noble Lord would make the sacrifice to him on the present question, that existing interests should not be taxed. He wished to avoid so manifest an injustice.

Lord Althorp

was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, knowing the peculiar situation in which he was placed, should press him to say more than he had done.

Sir M. W. Ridley

thought the Gentlemen opposite, ought to be satisfied with what the noble Lord had already stated. He would not have been sorry, had he gone a little further; but at the same time he thought the admissions made by the noble Lord were as much as could be expected from a Minister of the Crown, whom they certainly could not ask to alter the material principle on which the Bill was founded, in its present stage.

Mr. Shaw

said, that he felt grateful to the noble Lord for the concession he had already made—and he certainly had been much mistaken if the House apprehended it was his intention to press his suggestion to a division.

Mr. Goulburn

would consent to the Resolution passing in its present shape if the noble Lord would promise to take it into consideration, and let the discussion take place in bringing up the Report.

Mr. Hume

hoped the noble Lord, after the candid statements which he had already made, would pledge himself no further. One great error prevailed throughout this discussion—that of considering the clergy as the Church instead of the congregation. When there was no congregation, no allowance ought to be made. He agreed that this Resolution should pass in its present state, and he was sure, that after the statement made by the noble Lord, the Gentlemen below might place full confidence in him. In making these concessions, however, he called upon the noble Lord to remember that he was strictly watched by two different classes of attentive spectators; and whilst he sought to conciliate hon. Gentlemen by yielding certain points, others might imagine he was yielding too much.

Lord Althorp

said, it had frequently happened to him to be blamed by each side for yielding to the others; but this he would say, that he always would give way when he saw good reason for so doing. His hon. friend might depend on it that no man in England need be alarmed in consequence of the inclination which he had shown to give way to the exemption of present incumbents, that he would give way on any material principle of the measure to which he felt himself pledged, but, in this instance, he thought he could give way without such interference.

Mr. Finn

said, that this measure for the reform of the Church of Ireland—this grand panacea for the evils of that country—would afford relief only to the amount of 30,000l. to the suffering and starving people of Ireland. There appeared to be upon both sides of the House a rivalry as to who should do most to uphold the Protestant establishment in Ireland. He would tell the noble Lord that the people of Ireland looked upon that establishment as a most monstrous evil. It was an enormous injustice. If it was intended for the promotion of the Protestant religion in Ireland, it had totally failed, for the Protestant religion, instead of increasing, was going down in that country. In 1731 the population of Ireland was 2,000,000, and it now was 8,000,000. The Protestants in 1731 were in the proportion of one to two and a-half to the people of Ireland, and now they were only as one and a-half to six and a-half of the population of that country. If, then, the spread of the Protestant religion was the pretext for the maintenance of such an enormous establishment—an establishment that would not be endured for a moment under similar circumstances in this country—it had totally failed in producing that effect. It would be impossible to reconcile the Irish people to the maintenance in any degree of that establishment unless justice should be done them. At present they regarded the maintenance of that establishment as a badge of conquest. This measure would give only the small relief of 30,000l. to the people of Ireland, while it would preserve au establishment far too extensive, which had altogether failed in promoting Protestantism in Ireland, in the county of Kilkenny, for instance, the Protestant population 100 years ago was 6,000, and it now amounted to 6,500; showing an increase of 500 in the course of a century: while the Catholic population of Kilkenny, which, 100 years ago, was about 6,000, now amounted to 120,000. The Protestant population, the real church-going population of Ireland, after deducting the Presbyterians and other Dissenters, did not amount, at present, to more than 700,000. Was it for such a population that an establishment should be maintained that cost 1,000,000l. sterling? The revenues of the whole clergy of France for a population of upwards of 32,000,000 did not amount to more than 1,500,000l., while the clergy for a population of less than 700,000 cost 1,000,000l. sterling. It was only necessary to state, that simple fact to demonstrate to all sensible and impartial men the monstrous nature of such an establishment. It was rather remarkable, that throughout this discussion, while every attention was paid to the interests of the Established Church in Ireland, the state of the suffering starving poor there seemed to be altogether forgotten. A great deal had been said by the hon. and learned member for the University of Dublin about the distress of the Irish clergy, but he would defy the hon. and learned Member to show that there was a year's tithe due to the clergy of Ireland. It should not be forgotten, on the other hand, that at this moment there were in Ireland 1,000,000 able-bodied men, who were willing to work, and who were not able to obtain even 6d. a-day. It should be also recollected, that every man connected with that country had been latterly more or less reduced in his circumstances. The clergy had not been, as was represented, the sole sufferers, and their interests did not demand exclusive consideration.

Lord Althorp

deprecated the tone of the speech of the hon. Gentleman, as calculated to lead to unpleasant discussion. He most certainly, on bringing forward this proposition, did not seek to abolish the Established Church in Ireland. His aim was, merely to reform its abuses. It was unfair of the hon. Gentleman also to assume that this Bill was the only measure of relief intended to be brought forward by his Majesty's Government, whereas it was well known, that it was only one of several.

Mr. Warburton

was extremely glad to hear the manner in which the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) below him was received. He quite agreed to the principle laid down by the hon. member for the University of Dublin, that they should deal tenderly with existing interests, however they dealt abstractedly with the property of the Church in general. He had so strong an objection to a tax upon particular interests, that if it had not been for the promise of the noble Lord, he should certainly have felt himself called upon to vote against the second Resolution.

Mr. Gillon

, rather than impede the progress of the Bill, would withdraw the Amendment of which he had given notice; but, in doing so, he hoped he should not be considered as supporting a Church Establishment either in Ireland or elsewhere. Those who had expressed so much commiseration for the Establishment in Ireland, would do better to commiserate the starving people of that country. When it was considered how much the Protestant Establishment—for he would not dignify it by the name of a Church—had contributed to the over-taxation of the people of Ireland, it was not to be wondered at that they regarded the payment of a clergy from whom they derived no benefit as a monstrous oppression.

Mr. Andrew Johnstone

was glad that his hon. friend avowed his hostility to the Establishment in an open, manly manner. The Church had less to dread from avowed foes, than from the undermining of concealed enemies. But he denied that the sentiments of his hon. friend were participated in by the people of Scotland. He was himself an office-bearer of the Church of Scotland; but he considered this to be a common cause to Scotland and England. The Church of England, in his opinion, was now on its trial. He had heard a great many theoretical statements; but he had made up his mind to defend, upon all occasions, the Established Churches both of England and Scotland. He expressed his satisfaction at the concessions which had been made by the noble Lord. It was said, that there were two parties in this case—the people and the Church; but, for his own part, he was prepared to say, that by supporting the Church Establishment in Ireland, they would be supporting the interest of the people themselves. He did not mean to say that great abuses did not exist in that Church; but if it were as it ought to be—if clergymen were appointed who were capable of instructing the people in their vernacular language—great good would arise from the Establishment. If it was only to be an engine of political patronage, it could not be doubted that it was a great evil.

Mr. Cuthbert Rippon

observed, that religion was a purely personal conviction. He would ask, whether any one ought to be compelled to pay for supporting a form of worship which he believed to be contrary to the Word of God? Was it not monstrous to attempt to control men's consciences? Was it just, that Parliament should interfere with the means of salvation? If such an event as a religious revolution were to take place; if the Roman Catholics should again be elevated to supremacy, and the Protestants of England compelled to pay for the support of their clergy, would they not consider it a monstrous invasion of their rights? He would only appeal to Gentlemen to do to others as they would be done by. It was, perhaps, premature at that time to enter into this part of the question; but he thought it necessary to make these remarks, in consequence of the observations of the hon. Member who spoke last. He was himself a member of the Church of England, yet he did not find fault with another because "he sees salvation on the same hill-top, but treads another path to reach it."

Mr. Estcourt

said, if the debate continued, and took an angry tendency, he should deeply lament any circumstance which had raised such opposition. He would agree to the Resolution, on the understanding that the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) would take into his serious consideration—according to the understood meaning of that phrase—the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet the member for Tamworth.

Mr. Faithfull

said, he would only make a few remarks, in order to protect himself from the charge of inconsistency, if his vote now should appear to differ from that which he should give when the noble Lord brought in his Bill. He concurred in all that part which referred to taking away; but he did not approve of that mode in which what was taken away was to be appropriated. He regretted that it was not to be applied to the relief of the people, instead of being still applied to the purposes of the Church.

The Resolution agreed to.

The House resumed.