§ The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.
Sir John Hobhouse, in proposing these Estimates, observed, that the Government felt some disappointment in not being able to propose any large reductions in the army; for the fact was, that, when he first entered the office which he now had the honour of holding, it was the hope of the Government that they would be able to propose a reduction in that part of their military expenditure which had reference to the land forces of the country. The Ministers, however, had a great public duty to discharge; and circumstances might justify them in retaining the military establishments at their present height; for any premature reduction, so far from being of any essential service to the country, would be of the greatest possible disadvantage, and be the ultimate means of increasing the military expenditure. The Government had hoped to reduce the number of the men; and even certain propositions were drawn up with that view, which, however, the late events in the West Indies and elsewhere had rendered absolutely impracticable. That being their view of the case, of course it was not to be expected that he had to propose the same extent of reduction which had taken place in some of the other departments of the country; but he had the satisfaction of being able to state to this Committee, that the Government was enabled to make some reductions, which he would state seriatim to the House, and which, at the proper time, he should be prepared more fully to explain. In the 1019 vote for the land forces, exclusive of India, there was an increase of 18,625l. in round numbers. On the staff; exclusive of India, there was a decrease of 7,247l. On the items for public departments there was a decrease of 882l.; on medicines, there was a decrease of 428l.; on garrisons, there was a decrease of 164l.; on the Royal Military College, there was a decrease of 2,889l.; on the Royal Military Asylum, there was a decrease of 2,436l.; on the Irish List, there was a very large decrease, namely, 90,195l. on account of the Volunteer Corps. On the next vote, for regiments serving in the East-India Company's territories, there was a decrease of 3,220l. Let these items be added together, and deduct from them 18,625l., the amount of increase on the effective service, and the result would be a reduction of 86,236l. With respect to the non-effective branch, the account was equally satisfactory. In consequence of arrangements made before he came into office, the following reductions had been effected:—Army pay of general officers, 10,000l.; full pay for retired officers, 5,300l.; half-pay and military allowances, 21,300l; allowances to retired officers of Militia, &c. 839l.; widows' pensions, 355l.; Compassionate Fund, 5,578l.; and superannuation allowances, 6,000l. There was an increase in the charge for the in and out pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham. The general result, therefore, was a saving of 135,608l. in the way which he had endeavoured to explain. The charge for the effective army services for the year was 3,579,373l.; for the non-effective army services, 2,734,952l.; making a total of 6,314,325l. He would now point out the difference between the vote for the land force in 1831 and in 1832. The total force of all ranks, in 1831, was 109,048 men; in 1832, 109,198 men; being an increase of 150 men. In the force employed in the colonies there was an increase of 832 men; making a total increase of 982 men. The army was now within 1,336 men of its full establishment. It was, he knew, the opinion of many Gentlemen, that the mode of keeping up the army by recruiting, and the system on which reserve companies were conducted for the purpose of supplying the service abroad, might be beneficially altered. That was a large question, and he had applied himself to it with all the power which he was capable of exerting. It was, however, in his mind, a very doubtful point; and, considering the situation of the country, and 1020 the present circumstances of Europe, the existing system appeared to him to be the most applicable for preserving the forces in a state of efficiency, and, even in an economical view, it presented many advantages. He hoped, however, that the question would not be introduced incidentally on the present occasion. Whenever it was brought forward substantively, he should be ready to go into it fully. He should now state the difference of the charge for 1831 and 1832. The charge for the land forces in 1831 was 3,152,154l.; the estimate for 1832 was 3,170,779l., being an increase on the land forces alone of 18,625l. But, in the miscellaneous department there was a decrease, as compared with 1831, of 32,532l. The increase had been chiefly caused by the return of a regiment from India, with a charge for a whole year, and of two other regiments with a charge for half a year.
§ Sir Henry Parnell, before he made any remarks on the statement they had just heard, hoped it would be understood that he made all due allowances for the situation and want of experience of his right hon. friend (Sir John Hobhouse), who had so lately taken office. Having premised so much, he must say, he had heard with no small disappointment, and some degree of astonishment, the announcement of the very small reduction proposed by the Government in the Estimates of the year. He had, when he quitted the office of the Secretary at War, left materials which would have enabled the right hon. Gentleman to propose a much larger reduction. Before he sat down, he would show of what these materials consisted, and he confessed he had hoped that a much larger use would have been made of them by his successors. From the station he had once held, as Chairman of the Committee of Finance, he felt that the public would expect from him, when he took office, some attempt to carry his principles into effect; and, he must add, from the information he had obtained in the course of his financial inquiries, he was not so wholly unacquainted with the nature of the duties to be performed in the office of the Secretary at War. In the course of his examination of the accounts of that office, he had made himself minutely acquainted with the details of the service, and he went there rather as one who obtained an opportunity to put his opinions to the test, than as one who had opinions to form. He had examined the accounts with attention when 1021 out of office, and it became his duty to frame a plan of expenditure according to his preconceived ideas of financial expediency. Convinced of the propriety of avoiding all delay in the production of the public Estimates, he commenced in July, and, on or before the 8th of October, he presented to his noble friend (Lord Althorp) a rough draft of his plan of expenditure, and, on the 9th of November, he placed in his hands the Estimate of the Army for the year. Acting on the principles he had always professed—acting as he had engaged to do—as he had pledged himself to do—and as he had claimed the privilege of doing when he took office—it did appear to him that he was justified in laying before his noble friend a plan of Estimates, which, if carried into effect, would save to the public 600,000l. a-year. And this saving, he begged to state, could be effected without diminishing the number of the land forces of the country below that fixed by the Duke of Wellington, or diminish, in the slightest degree, the efficiency of the service. This was not the time to enter into detailed explanations, but he might say that, as a general principle, he looked at the necessity of bringing back the establishments to the same amount as they were left by the Administration of the Duke of Wellington. He would not dwell at that moment on the reasons which rendered this change desirable, nor would he go into an examination of the items; but he might say, as one of the first points, that the whole establishment of the Waggon Train admitted, in his opinion, of very considerable reductions, even if it could not be done away with altogether. The recruiting plan was, also, very extravagant, and could, he thought, be re-modelled with advantage, and with a great saving to the public. Passing next to the Mess Allowances, he considered them very much beyond what they ought to be. The increase on the original allowance was given in consequence of the increased duties on wine, but these duties being diminished, the cause of the increased allowances was removed, and that increase ought to be deducted. He thought, too, that the dinners at St. James's Palace could be materially reduced in their cost. There were dinners of a similar description given to the Officers at Dublin Castle; and, he found, on comparing the expense, and even adding 1,000l. for a difference in the number, that a saving of 3,500l. might be effected. His right hon. friend had intimated that the 1022 riding establishments were all to be transferred to Maidstone, but he saw no reason why they might not be got rid of altogether. Another material reduction, he contemplated, was under the head of Public Departments. The Horse Guards, at the present moment, cost the country the very large sum of 28,000l. a-year; and, he belived, that, with a very little consideration, a great saving might be effected there, as well as a very great reformation in the mode of transacting the business of the office. The present system of Army Extraordinaries was another part of the service in which he contemplated a change. If they, as he proposed, got rid of that, they could also get rid of the expense of the office of the Comptroller of the Army Accounts, and all the cost of his department. Passing over the Medical Board, which he also proposed to dispense with, he came to the Military College, which he wished to confine altogether to purposes of instruction, and, by that means, save the expense which was at present incurred by the Government. With respect to Chelsea Hospital, much might be done. He proposed transferring to the War Office the whole machinery employed there for the payment of the out pensioners. By that means a material saving would be effected, and the work be much better done. As to the management of the in-pensioners, since the termination of the war, the office had ceased to have any duties to perform; for, he understood from all quarters, that there was really a difficulty now in getting persons to reside in the Hospital as in-pensioners. Adverting to another branch of the service—the clothing of the army—he had good reason for thinking that the present plan might be advantageously changed. He would not then enter into the details on which he grounded his belief of the advantage of a change, but he believed he could, either in writing, or on any future occasion, prove it, to the satisfaction of the House and the country. For his own part, he was convinced of the propriety of his views on that subject. Another branch of the service—the non-effective—admitted of great reductions. Almost the whole of the expense of that department had grown up within a few years, and he had laid down a plan which, if pursued, would get rid of much of the burthen which had been imposed in that way on the public service since the conclusion of the war. As to the pay of the army, he would not then say much. The increase had been given about 1023 the year 1806, and he did not mean to say, without reason; but as one of the motives, for it was the depreciation of the currency at that time, he thought that, the cause having now ceased, some alteration might be effected. One great reason was, at all events, gone, for the continuance of the increase. In alluding to the public accounts, he had long been of opinion that the accounts of the Army Ordinaries and Army Extraordinaries, the Commissariat, and the Ordnance could be advantageously consolidated, and the whole of the machinery most beneficially simplified. He merely, however, threw out a suggestion of the propriety of such a change, in the hope that it might meet with the consideration of the Government. Having said thus much, he begged it to be understood, that he did not make these observations with a view of opposing the Estimates of the right hon. Baronet, or of casting any imputation on his zeal for the public service; but merely to show to the House and the public that, while he had been in office, he had not departed from the principles he formerly professed—principles which it had cost him some disappointment in not being able to carry into full effect. It was necessary for him, however, also to state, that it was his impression that he had not been supported in the way he ought to have been by his Majesty's Government. The noble Lord (Lord Althorp) would do him the justice to acknowledge that, at the time he accepted office, he declared he could not continue to hold it unless his views of reduction were supported, although he was, at the same time, quite willing that his plans and Estimates should undergo all reasonable examination and discussion. He thought it, however, not consistent with his duty or his principles to abstain from pressing that course of expenditure which his inquiries induced him to believe was both right and necessary. The right hon. Baronet concluded by apologising for having troubled the House at so much length on these details.
§ Lord Althorpadmitted, in the outset, that the right hon. Baronet had stipulated for the execution of his views when he took office; but he (Lord Althorp), as the right hon. Baronet would recollect, observed, at the same time, that if the right hon. Baronet could convince him that those views were right, he should certainly have his support. It was also quite true that the right hon. Baronet had furnished him with a rough statement of his plans—a 1024 very rough one it was—at the time he mentioned. The House must, however, see that plans of that description were not to be carried into effect without the deepest consideration, from the important consequences involved in them. He hoped the House would admit, therefore, that there had not been any great dereliction of duty on his part in not proceeding rashly with the execution of extensive changes, and that, too, at a time when he was deprived of the services of his right hon. friend (Sir H. Parnell), who could best have explained the method of carrying them into practical effect. It was on this ground, too, that he thought his right hon. friend, the present Secretary at War, was entitled to some indulgence at the hands of the House. He (Lord Althorp) would admit, however, that he concurred in many of the suggestions of the right hon. Baronet, although he could not adopt them instantaneously, or without seeing them better marked out in their details. Many of them, he repeated, would require much time and deliberation. To take, for instance, the Commander-in-Chief's office, alluded to by the right hon. Baronet. Surely his right hon. friend was aware that the saving he contemplated there could not be effected without a complete and extensive change throughout the whole of the department. He admitted it could be done, but then it required much discussion and examination of minute details, before it could be effected with safety. Then, as to the question of clothing, undoubtedly it was important to change the system, if the calculations of the right hon. Baronet were correct; but it would be found, on inquiry, that there were persons who, on that subject, made calculations which showed a directly opposite result, and that the change contemplated by the right hon. Baronet would increase rather than diminish the expense. This would show the propriety of investigating before they came to a decision. The right hon. Baronet said, too, that the Waggon Train might be safely reduced. He agreed with the right hon. Baronet to some extent on that point, but those conversant with the army were unanimously of opinion that the skeleton of the Waggon Train was absolutely necessary for the preservation of the efficacy of that branch of the service. He doubted very much that his right hon. friend would ever have been able to reduce the Estimates to the amount of 600,000l. as he had stated, consistently with the due maintenance of the efficiency of the military force of the country. He doubted 1025 much, too, that his right hon. friend would have been able to have effected, as he stated, a reduction of 220,000l. in the present year. With respect to the Military College, the right hon. Baronet recommended that it should be confined to instruction. He had the satisfaction to say, that it was determined to make the College from henceforward pay its own expenses. They could not turn out those who were at present residents under the old system; but it was determined that no others should be admitted. A large portion of the expenditure was, undoubtedly, to be placed to the account of the standing army; but it must be considered that the keeping up of that army was one of those points which came under the discretion of the Ministers of the Crown, and for which they were immediately responsible. Considering the general circumstances of this country, and of the world at the time, though he (Lord Althorp) and his hon. colleagues had entertained an anxious wish up to the last period, to propose such a reduction in the land forces, they did not think they would be justified in proposing it at the present moment. The amount of the army sanctioned by the House depended, in a great degree, on the confidence which the House was inclined to place in the responsible Ministers of the Crown, who must take into consideration whether the amount of forces kept in existence were absolutely necessary or not. Now, looking at all the circumstances of the country at the present moment, he did not think that his Majesty's Government would be justified in proposing in the present year a large reduction of the military force of the country.
Colonel Daviesdid not mean to object to the vote proposed on this occasion, and he doubted that the right hon. Baronet would have been able to effect reductions to the amount of 600,000l., as he had stated; but, at the same time, he could not avoid expressing his surprise that his noble friend opposite, who was a member of the finance Committee, and had voted there for every one of these reductions, should be so long a time in making up his mind to agree with the suggestions of his right hon. friend.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, he had stated, that no distinct details were laid before him in a manner to enable him to see their practical working. He had heard arguments and reasons from his right hon. friend, but he could not act on them in his absence.
Colonel Daviessaid, although the noble 1026 Lord might not feel himself competent to decide upon all the details of his right hon. friend, yet there were some so clear that he (Colonel Davies) thought that the mere propounding of them would have been sufficient to insure his assent. There was the Waggon Train—all military officers agreed that it was a useless and unnecessary expense. Then there was the recruiting department, surely that might be reduced. Further, the Governors, who were in the receipt of large salaries, ought not to be allowed to retain their half-pay. All that he had heard on this subject convinced him of the absolute necessity of having this subject brought under the consideration of a Select Committee. His right hon. friend had said, that he would effect a reduction of 600,000l.; but let them give him (Colonel Davies) a Select Committee, and he would show that a reduction of a million additional might be made with regard to expenses connected with the army. If he should be fortunate enough to have a seat in a Reformed Parliament, the first thing that he would do would be, to move the appointment of such a Committee as that which he now suggested. He must say that, after the promises of the noble Lord and his right hon. friends opposite, he was much disappointed in finding that they had not redeemed their pledges as to reduction in those Estimates. The Estimates for the present year were 6,314,425l. 9s. 4d. In the last year, they were 6,381,849l., so that the saving in the present year was only, in point of fact, 67,424l. If they looked to the year 1830, they would find that the Estimates amounted to 6,123,112l., which was less than those for the present year by 191,314l. He must confess, therefore, that he was disappointed, that the pledges given by Ministers when out of office had not been redeemed. His right hon. friend had stated, that the troops in the colonies were less by 4,000 than in 1830, so that they had 72,000 for the home service alone. With regard to the large military force employed in Ireland, he hoped that his Majesty's Government would lose no time in taking steps to tranquillize that country, so as to put an end to the necessity of keeping up so large a force there. He would say that, if Ministers wished to maintain a character for consistency, and if they had not altogether forgotten in office, those pledges which they had made out of office, they would effect a large reduction in the military establishments of the country.
§ Sir Henry Parnellsaid, that his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had said that he (Sir Henry Parnell) had laid before him nothing more than a very rough statement. He was sure that his noble friend would recollect, that the papers submitted to him were official documents prepared at the War Office, showing the whole of the sums expended last year, and containing an estimate of what he (Sir Henry Parnell) meant to propose for the present. He had only one explanatory observation to make. His noble friend seemed to think that the only mode in which he meant to reduce the expense of the Military College was, by reducing the number of students, and by making those who entered hereafter pay for their own education. His noble friend was mistaken. Another mode in which he wished to reduce the expenses of the College consisted in the abolition of the military staff.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that his right hon. friend had certainly laid before him a large mass of papers, which, to have understood, would have required a very accurate and detailed investigation. He did not deny that such papers had been laid before him; but what he wished to state was, that they were not in such state of forwardness as estimates usually were. With respect to the Military College, he begged to state that it was not his intention to have made an impression upon the House that the mode by which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to reduce the expenses of that establishment consisted in the removal of the orphans of military officers from it.
§ Captain Bolderocould not help remarking, that during the fifteen years that he had sat in Parliament he had never heard so unfair an attack as that which had that night been made by the right hon. Gentleman, the member for Queen's County—an attack alike unfair, he must say, to the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, to the army, and to the public. If the right hon. Gentleman was really prepared to make so great a reduction in the estimates as he had stated, was he not bound to the country to show in what it would consist? But he had done nothing of the kind. He said, that, had he continued in office, he would have saved 600,000l. If that were so, then, although out of office, he was bound in justice to the country to show how it could be done. Yet he had only alluded to a few items in the Estimates, in which, he said, unnecessary expenses were incurred. He approved of the statement of the right 1028 hon. Baronet opposite; it was of a fair and candid character.
§ Sir Henry Hardingethought, that the frank manner in which the right hon. Baronet, the member for Westminster had laid the Estimates before the House was far more satisfactory than the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Henry Parnell) had submitted his objections to the few items in which he said he could have effected reductions, and which he lamented he had not the opportunity of so doing. For his part, speaking as a military man, and having himself, for some years filled the office of Secretary at War, he congratulated the army and the country at having the right hon. Gentleman no longer at the head of the Military Department—because, if the right hon. Gentleman had continued in office, and effected the reductions which he proposed, it was very much to be feared that the efficiency of the army would have been most materially impaired. It had been stated that in the clothing of the army a different system was to be adopted, by which it was expected that a considerable reduction of expense would be effected. Upon the strength of no inconsiderable experience, he cautioned the Government to be careful how they adopted changes in that, perhaps, the most difficult and most intricate of all matters connected with the supply of the army. Again, it was said, that in the course of a few years, the country was to be at no expense in the maintenance of the Military College; in other words, that the education of the young gentlemen who went there would no longer be paid for by the country. Against such an arrangement he (Sir Henry Hardinge) should always protest, because he believed it to be alike opposed to good feeling and good policy. He should be prepared to meet the right hon. Baronet whenever he brought forward his plans and methods substantively before the House. At present he would merely observe, that he had heard with regret the noble Chancellor of the Exchequer declare, with apparent satisfaction, that after three years the public would be put to no expense for the education of the orphan sons of officers (twenty) at the Military College: This reduction would justly occasion great dissatisfaction in the army, and in a national point of view was highly injudicious. In France 50,000l. a-year was expended by the government in the maintenance of military schools for the education of its young officers. In the United States of America between 300 and 400 young men were 1029 educated at West Point at the public expense. The Military College of this country cost little more than 2,500l. a-year; and when, for the sake of reducing that sum, it was proposed to deny to the orphans of the old officers of the army the advantage of the education which they had hitherto received at the public expense, he thought that it was at once proposed to do an act of injustice and of impolicy. Then it was said, that the Waggon Corps should be either reduced or abolished. At present it consisted of only 100 men. In France it consisted of 4,500. No one who had the slightest knowledge of military affairs could doubt of the immense importance of such a corps in facilitating the movements of an army. He, for one, therefore, was strongly opposed to any further reduction of so useful a body. But he would enter into no further detail; he was sure that the majority of the House would concur in the proposition of the right hon. Baronet opposite, by whose exertions he doubted not but that the efficiency of the army would be maintained, at the same time that a proper regard to economy would be observed. Where abuses existed, the right hon. Baronet might rest assured that the officers of the army, so far from creating or encouraging them, would be as anxious and as ready as himself to wipe them off; and he would add that, while the right hon. Baronet remained at the head of the military department of the country, he could not do better than to consult experienced officers, who, upon many points of detail, would point out where economy could be effected without reducing the efficiency of the army.
§ Sir Henry Parnellbegged the right hon. and gallant Officer to bear in mind, that he conceived there was an interest, to which the merely army interest was secondary, namely, the public interest; but the gallant Officer, like most other military men, seemed to think there was no interest to be considered but that of the army. The Secretary at War should virtually be the trustee of the public, and as such, a check upon the tendency of military men to advance their own profession at the expense of the public.
Mr. Humeobserved, that in the Finance Committee there was but one opinion with respect to the right hon. Baronet the late Secretary at War, and that was, that he was desirous only for such reduction as would not impair the public service. He had been anxious to cut off unnecessary 1030 establishments, not to destroy the efficiency of the army, but to make the whole army more efficient. Who could doubt that great reductions might be made in the army Estimates? There were seven Quarter Masters General—how could so many be usefully employed? Again it was surely unnecessary to keep up so large an establishment as the Military College, solely for the education of twenty orphans. It was not consistent with the public interest to educate so many young men with the hope of having commissions, when we had no commissions to give them. He hoped that the time was not far distant when he should see one establishment for the army, the artillery, and the East-India Company's officers. It would create emulation, and would be attended with less expense. He thought a large proportion of the staff belonging to the Military College might be removed; the salary of some of the officers diminished. Why was such a sum as 1,000l, a-year, besides other advantages to be allowed to one man? A gallant officer had asked why we should not keep up public military education, as the Americans did, at West Point? But it must be recollected, that in America there were not the same facilities for obtaining a military education in private as in this country. The system was also to educate young men from the various States, in order that the American army might be impartially officered. But why should we, an insulated country, not exposed to sudden attack, keep up at an enormous expense the establishment which we had maintained during the last seventeen years? The principle of our military establishments had hitherto been, that we should be always prepared for immediate war. If it had not been for this principle, we should not have men always ready to undertake wildgoose expeditions, like that to Lisbon. As to the hon. Baronet's reference to the opinion of clerks of the War Office, the members of the civil department of the army must, in many matters of detail, be better qualified to form an opinion than military men. He regretted very much that the right hon. Baronet, the late Secretary at War, had not had an opportunity of carrying his plans into effect. We had now 8,000 men in our military establishment more than when the Duke of Wellington left office. It appeared to him that every government, it did not matter whether Whig or Tory, thought that a large military force was necessary to overawe the people. He much 1031 regretted to see that his Majesty's present Ministers thought it their duty to keep up such a force. He was sure they were under an unnecessary alarm. They would do much better to trust to the generosity and good sense of the people, and to remove their causes of complaint, instead of keeping up this large military force, which excited irritation and annoyance, and required a large military force to repress it. Thus the love for a military force kept working in a circle, and perpetually engendered the evil it was meant to guard against. If the army had been reduced as it ought to have been at the conclusion of the war, the saving would now be 1,200,000l. a-year. The amount of pensions, too, was enormous. After seventeen years' peace the dead weight amounted to 2,800,000l., although Lord Castlereagh, in 1818, said, that it would die off at the rate of seven per cent, per annum. He regretted to see that the interests of the public were not attended to as the interests of individuals were. Why were they to have 12,000 men more in Ireland this year than the last? Let them act towards Ireland with justice, and such a force would be unnecessary. But would 50,000 men keep Ireland quiet if the tithe system were not altered? The sooner in both countries conciliatory measures were adopted, and a large army dispensed with, the better for both. It was hardly to be expected that Ireland could be placed in the same situation of perfect tranquillity as Scotland. But if they looked back they would find that formerly it was as difficult a matter to manage Scotland as it now was to manage Ireland. What had rendered Scotland one of the quietest countries in the civilized world with so few complaints to make? simply because the rights of the people were respected; justice was impartially administered: and there was no interference in matters of religion. These were the circumstances which had placed Scotland in so enviable a position. What was the result? Why last year the number of troops in all Scotland did not exceed 1,200. These were chiefly in garrison, in Edinburgh, Stirling, &c. With the exception of Glasgow, which, being a large manufacturing place, occasionally required troops, they were wholly needless in Scotland. Let Government try a similar experiment in Ireland, and they might soon bring down the military establishment in that country. And why, too, did they maintain such a large force in the colonies? There were 1032 more troops in the Canadas and in Nova Scotia, than were to be found in the whole of the United States? If our garrisons there had not a single soldier in them, in the present state of Europe what apprehension could there be of any foreign attack? Why, therefore, were we to continue so large an expenditure? He allowed that his Majesty's Ministers had been employed, and were still employed, in a very great work; and he should be very unwilling to throw any difficulties in their way by objecting to the number of troops which they proposed. Regretting, however, the erroneous view which, in his opinion, they took of the amount of military force which it was expedient to maintain, he must for the present satisfy himself with the observations which he had made, without moving for any reductions; trusting that the moment his Majesty's Ministers were relieved from the important undertaking in which they were at present engaged, they would turn their attention to the best means of reducing our military establishment.
Mr. Baringhaving sat as a Member of the Committee to which allusion had been made, in which the question of the expense of the standing army was very fully investigated, would trouble the Committee with a very few observations, although he did not profess to have much information on military subjects. The general amount of the military establishment of the country was one question: whether that establishment, such as it was, was the most economical that could be maintained was another. As to the amount of our military establishment, the hon. member for Middlesex trusted, we should be able to get Ireland into such a state as that there would be no necessity for maintaining a large military force in that country—that it might be as useless there as it was in Scotland. He (Mr. Baring), feared that the bad consequences arising from bad government could not be immediately removed, and, therefore, the hon. Member would excuse him for saying, that at present they must deal with the question in a wider point of view; they must take things as they stood, and while they remained in their present state, they must be prepared to meet the probable consequences of that state of affairs, by whomsoever it might have been produced. The question, whether there had, or had not, been good government in Ireland had really nothing to do with the subject matter of this night's debate, which simply was, 1033 what establishments the army required for the present year? Looking into this subject with great jealousy, being as little disposed to keep up these military establishments as the hon. member for Middlesex, or any other hon. Gentleman could be, and entertaining quite as little predilection as he did for a military Government, or military influence of any description, the impression made upon his mind was, on looking to the state of the country, that no very material reduction in the army could be effected at the present moment. There was not only the present state of Ireland to be taken into consideration, but it should not be forgotten that immense masses of the manufacturing population in different parts of the country were occasionally thrown out of employment, and at such times agitated and irritated by great distress, which induced them to break out into acts of violence, for which there was sometimes no remedy but the employment of military force, although those acts of violence had nothing whatever to do with feelings of disloyalty or rebellion, but were the almost natural consequences of the state of irritation produced by that distress to which large manufacturing establishments were necessarily occasionally liable. So long as the country remained in its present condition, or so long as it possessed large manufacturing establishments, which were occasionally involved in distress and difficulty—so long, setting aside the establishments which were necessary abroad, would there exist a necessity for maintaining a considerable force at home. It was very easy for any hon. Gentleman to say, "Why, here you have 89,000 men" (or whatever the number might be); "you can do with a less number." Nothing was more easy than saying this; but it was necessary to point out where the reductions could be made, without impairing the necessary efficiency of the public service. The hon. Member said, that a reduction to the extent of half a million of money could be effected at once. Why, nothing was more easy than to make that sort of off-hand declaration; but to render it of any weight, it was necessary to show where, and how these reductions could be made. His hon. friend said, that he would cut off the force which was stationed in our American colonies: it must be remembered that they ran over an extensive line of 1,500 or 2,000 miles; they possessed considerable fortifications and naval arsenals; and would it be said, under these 1034 circumstances, that we could have a less military force than 5,000 men there? He would call to the recollection of his hon. friend an occurrence which took place in the course of last year, when, notwithstanding the friendly intercourse which existed between this country and the neighbouring state of North America, it became necessary for the Government to send out a military force, for the purpose of breaking up an encroachment on the province of New Brunswick. Besides, what a temptation we should hold out to restless and daring spirits, if we left our possessions without any defences whatever; it was neither more nor less than bidding for enterprise and aggression of every description. We certainly possessed some colonies, which were not worth preserving. He could understand the necessity of our establishments at Gibraltar, and at Malta, which were, of course, indispensable to our commerce, as connected with the Mediterranean; but he must confess that he never could understand the policy or expediency of maintaining any establishments in the Ionian Islands. It would always be easy to get rid of them; there would always be somebody who wished to be made governor over something. The right hon. Gentleman had a friend in Greece—why not give them to him? He dared say they would be really a boon to that country. Now, there were other questions which had been introduced into this discussion with respect to the necessity of a Waggon train, and the maintenance of the Military College, which were certainly more strictly questions for military men; but with respect to the latter, when he saw that France and America, with a very small army—two most intelligent countries, and the latter most anxious for economy—maintained military colleges at a very great expense, it afforded a strong presumptive argument that it was their opinion that a military education was indispensable. On a comparison of the expenditure of those countries and this, under that head, this argument was very materially strengthened. In this country the army held a certain station in society, and young men of good family were induced to enter the service whose parents had been able to give them a good education. In such cases, certainly, a military establishment was not required; but if there were no such establishment, it would be matter of just complaint on the part of the democracy and the middle classes, that the army 1035 was confined exclusively, like the public offices of State, to the aristocratic part of the community. He was very sorry to hear so trifling an item as this, when compared with the whole amount of the estimate, objected to. On the subject of the Waggon Train, he certainly could give no opinion. There was, however, one remark connected with this part of the subject which he would wish to make. The French had a waggon train of 4,500 men—ours did not exceed 100 men, and when this was compared with the amount of the standing army of the two countries, he could not but think—considering that Marshal Soult, who had the greatest military reputation of any man living except one, was at the head of the French forces—that this must be a very necessary and useful appendage to the army. He begged pardon of the Committee for troubling it so long, but as he did not concur in the opinion which had been expressed, that the maintenance of this force, was an act of extravagance on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, he thought it incumbent on him to say so.
§ Mr. Huntwas very unfortunate in being absent from his place when these estimates were brought forward by the right hon. Secretary at War. He had been equally unfortunate in the absence of the right hon. Baronet on the occasion of his bringing two questions before the House—the flogging of soldiers, and the Manchester business; and having been unfortunate in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman upon those occasions, he regretted that he had himself been absent at the commencement of the present discussion. Having so often heard the right hon. Baronet express his opinion on this subject, both in that House and out of doors, he certainly was much surprised at his proposing this increase where the country might have been led to expect reductions. He had felt it his duty last year to move for the reduction of 10,000 men, and he very much regretted to find that some reduction had not by this time been effected. Several statements had been made with respect to the cause of this increase: some hon. Gentlemen said, it was the state of Ireland which had caused it, but he thought the hon. Member for Thetford, (Mr. Baring) had given a better reason for it than any he had heard. That Gentleman said, "You have large manufacturing districts in a state of great distress, and you must, therefore, have a large military force to keep the people down." He (Mr. Hunt) had received a letter the 1036 other day from Huddersfield, stating the dreadful distress which prevailed there; and it was an extraordinary fact that the Political Union—he might speak of it now, without giving offence to the Treasury Bench—at their very last meeting, made a calculation of the expense of clothing the army, and the result was, that the clothing for one soldier cost as much money as would clothe eleven of these poor unfortunate manufacturers. Now this was a very extraordinary fact certainly, but, at the same time, very true. The late Secretary at War stated that he would be enabled to make a reduction of 600,000l. in these expenses. Now, what a very extraordinary anomaly it was, that the right hon. Baronet, the present Secretary at War, whom he had so often heard denounce the principle of standing armies altogether, should now propose to maintain a large army for the purpose of keeping down the distressed manufacturers. Why, was it not very horrid that these poor people should work from sixteen to eighteen hours a day, without being able to get the common necessaries of life, and then go home and he down upon straw, ten or twelve together, huddled close to one another like pigs, for the purpose of promoting warmth? When people were in such a dreadful state of destitution as this, it was not surprising that it should be necessary to keep up a large standing army. The hon. member for Thetford very fairly said, that severe pressure and great distress would induce acts of violence which had no connexion whatever with disloyalty or rebellion. It certainly was a very extraordinary fact, that here was a liberal Government, with a liberal Secretary at War—he meant nothing personally offensive to him—no doubt he found it necessary to act differently from what he originally intended—maintaining a standing army of 89,000 men, being 8,000 more than what the Duke of Wellington at the head of the Tory Administration thought it necessary to maintain. The gallant Officer on that side of the House had charged another gallant Officer with having made a very bad canvassing speech. Now, he must say, that the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary at War, had made a very bad canvassing speech for Westminster, as he would find one of these days. He certainly, if these estimates came forward again in this shape, should be prepared to move that the army be reduced 8,000 men, at least—in order that it might be no more expensive than it was 1037 when the Anti reform Administration was in office. He was very sorry that he did not hear the speech of the right hon. Secretary at War; but he would say, notwithstanding, that the liberal Government had a right to show the people why it was that they proposed to make this addition to the army. They could not be afraid of the agitation of the Reform Bill because they had said that there they heat got the whole country with them. He was decidedly opposed to this increase in the amount of the military force to be employed in this country.
Sir John Hobhousefelt that, although there could be no discredit to the right hon. member for Queen's county in the course he had adopted, still it was necessary for him to explain the circumstances in which he found himself upon entering into the situation of Secretary at War. One might imagine, from the speech of the right hon. Baronet, that when he went out of office, he left behind him a regular plan of reduction, which his successor had nothing to do but to act upon. It was undoubtedly true that the right hon. Baronet did leave in the War Office a great mass of papers; but they consisted of loose essays, tables, and general calculations, and were intended to form, as he conceived, an extreme statement of what, under a different system, might be carried into effect. There was not, however, any specific proposition for the estimates of the present year. He had taken all the strongest points of the hon. Gentleman's calculations into consideration, and effected a reduction in every one of them, with the exception of that relating to the Waggon Train, which had been the subject of some conversation in the course of that evening, and in which a material difference of opinion existed between the right hon. Baronet and those best acquainted with the subject, whose advice he had followed. With respect to the other matters to which the right hon. Baronet had adverted, they were of so much importance, and required so much attentive consideration, that he could hardly expect that a Secretary, who had not been more than two months in office could be prepared with any specific measure. In answer to the hon. member for Middlesex, who had complained of the amount of the dead weight and the military establishment of the country, he would state, that neither the present Government nor the preceding Administration were to be blamed for the existence of 1038 the dead weight. It was now impossible to get rid of it; but no opportunity ought to be lost of gradually reducing it. The amount of the military establishment was a question of general politics. It depended on the state of our colonies, of Europe, and of this country; but this he would say, that the Government would not be slow to propose reductions whenever the condition of the country would permit them.
§ Sir Henry Parnellsaid, that he had not left only loose and general calculations at the War Office, but a specific paper, headed "An abstract or statement showing the sums voted under the principal heads of the Estimates of 1831, and the reduction proposed to be made in the Estimates to be voted in 1832." This paper was the result of eight months' continual application, and exhibited what might be done in the way of reducing the expenditure of the army.
Mr. Humesaid, it was the opinion of the Committee last year that Europeans should be withdrawn from the African corps, and he wished to know whether that desire had been acted upon. He was also very desirous of knowing whether any arrangement had been made with respect to promotion. He thought new officers should not be appointed to regiments until the list of the half-pay had been gone through.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, the African corps was now entirely composed of black men. With respect to the other question put to him by the hon. member fur Middlesex, as to promotion, he begged to say, that the Secretary at War had but little to do with arranging in that matter.
Mr. Humecomplained that the Secretary at War had not something to do with the arrangement of the promotion of officers, for he was a responsible person, upon whom the House could at all times call; but the Commander-in-Chief was not in such a condition. In former times the Secretary at War had greater power in these affairs—he was the proper financial Minister of the army, and he (Mr. Hume) regretted that the Commander-in-Chief had now that power transferred to him. This evil had sprung up in the course of the last war, and he hoped the day was not very distant when it would be got rid of.
§ Lord Althorpdenied that the Commander-in-Chief was not under the cognizance of that House, the hon. member for Middlesex having asserted the contrary; but he concurred in what the hon. Gen- 1039 tleman had stated as to the Secretary at War being the proper officer of finance in his department. With regard to another point alluded to by the hon. Member—viz. the promotion of officers—that was necessarily placed under the control of the Commander-in-Chief, as he of course had the discipline of the army under his management.
Mr. Humethought that some such rule respecting promotion in the army ought to be adopted as that which prevailed in the navy—of making but one officer for several vacancies, and filling up the others from the half-pay list.
Colonel Evansthought that proper attention had not been paid to the necessities of the country, or else, within a period of sixteen years, there might have been a much greater reduction than there had been in the number of half-pay officers. It was not, however, in the matter of the promotion alone, as it regarded the employment of officers from the half-pay list, that the greatest cause of complaint existed. The higher ranks of the army were filled up in a most improper manner, so that thirty or forty regiments were now commanded by men who had seen little, if any, service. In his opinion the command of regiments ought not to be open to purchase by Majors who happened to have plenty of money in their pockets. That system was, however, carried on. In a recent instance, there had been a young officer appointed to the command of a cavalry regiment when there were many older and more experienced and very able officers, who were anxiously applying, but in vain, at the Horse Guards to obtain their commands.
Mr. C. W. Wynnagreed with the hon. and gallant Member that this was a question of extreme difficulty and delicacy; and one with respect to which it is scarcely possible that the House of Commons, or any large assembly, could establish a precise rule. If the army was to be maintained, it was desirable that it should be efficient; and unless some opportunity be afforded of infusing new blood into it, if he might be allowed the phrase, by the promotion of those engaged in active service, it was quite impossible that the spirit of the service could be maintained. At the conclusion of the long war a great reduction took place; and the consequence had been, that no person could at present be admitted to the rank of admiral who was not nearly sixty years of age. In the event of a war, great 1040 inconvenience would result from this circumstance, because it was impossible that men of such an advanced age could be employed in active service of a desperate character. Whenever the necessity for employing them should arise, some means must be found for bringing younger men into these active duties. As the dead weight had been alluded to, he would trouble the Committee with a few observations on that subject. He regretted the consequences of the measure introduced by Mr. Wyndham; but he felt it his duty, as he was a Member of the House at the period when that measure was so introduced, to state the difficulties which that eminent individual had to contend with. In consequence of the sudden augmentation of the army at that time, and in consequence also of the effect produced on the recruiting market by the plans adopted by preceding Governments, the bounty upon enlistment had been raised to 60l. or 80l. per man. The immediate consequence of Mr. Wyndham's measure for increasing the pay, after fourteen years' service, was to reduce the bounty to 20l. per man, and even lower than that. The country derived great immediate benefit from this circumstance. It was, however, impossible even at that time, that any person connected with the army should fail to perceive the inconveniences which would result from the very short period that was fixed as that which was to intervene before the increased remuneration should come into effect. The regulations which were adopted by his right hon. friend, a former Secretary at War, had placed this charge on a more beneficial footing for the country; but it still remained a heavy burthen. With respect to the estimates now before the House, and particularly the present vote, he had not the slightest objection to offer to them. It appeared to him impossible to effect any serious diminution of the charge for the army, except by a reduction of the number of men; but when he looked at the events which were passing around him, he felt that this was not the time at which his Majesty's Ministers could safely recommend such a reduction. When he recollected the very next question which stood for discussion, so soon as this Committee should be disposed of, he felt that it would be improper to reduce the military force at this moment, and, indeed, he should be disposed to augment it, if Ministers recommended that. His Majesty's subjects 1041 were entitled to demand protection in return for allegiance. When it was known that in a part of this empire, juries were afraid to return their verdicts; that witnesses were deterred from giving their testimony; and that the officers of the law could not serve process without danger to their lives, it was the duty (a painful one, he acknowledged) of his Majesty's Government, but one from which he trusted they would not flinch, to send to that quarter such a military force as should ensure the due execution of the law. As to reduction, little had been made; and little, under the circumstances, was to be expected. He could hardly call the apparent diminution under the head of the volunteer force a reduction, because a vote was taken in advance for that service last year. A reduction had, he perceived been made, in the riding establishment; he should be glad to see the riding establishment done away with altogether. From what he observed, before he entered office and since, be was satisfied that the service would derive greater advantage, whilst, at the same time, there would be a saving of money, if the riding establishment were abolished, and an inspector appointed to superintend the regiments.
§ Captain Bolderosaid, that the dead weight of the army might be economised. There were 90,371 men on the pension list. Now, of these, 20,000 effective soldiers might be taken to be employed in garrison duty in Gibraltar and Malta; they were willing to go, and these veteran troops might be had at a much smaller expense than the troops of the line now employed on these services. To prove this, he would refer to the present expense of the army. In the Life Guards, a man and horse cost the Government 69l. 4s. per annum; the cost of each man in the cavalry was 46l. 13s.; the cost of each man in the Foot Guards was 34l. per annum; and in the Line 30l. 1s. Now, as each of the men he had proposed to take from the dead weight could be had at 20l. per man the saving on each would amount to 10l.—a sum that, in 20,000 men, rose to a considerable amount. In adopting that plan, too, many of the incidental expenses now required for preparing young soldiers for garrison duty might be saved.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, the hon. and gallant Member had not taken into consideration in his calculation, that, if veterans were called into active employment, they would be entitled to an increase of pay in 1042 proportion to their length of service; this would make a very material difference in the amount.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, that the saving which his right hon. friend had been able to effect amounted to only 14,000l. if this were the only saving which could be made out of an expenditure of 4,388,000l., he must conclude that he and other hon. Members had been wasting their time during the last fifteen years in endeavouring to force the Tory Administration to make reductions.
Lord George Bentincksaid, that taking into consideration the events which had occurred at Bristol, Worcester, and elsewhere, and the present state of Jamaica, there was no reason to blame Ministers for having made a reduction to the extent of only 14,000l. It would not have been a matter of surprise if they had presented an increased estimate.
Colonel Evansdeemed the plan suggested dy the hon. and gallant Member (Captain Boldero) incapable of being carried into effect; nor did he think, were it adopted, that the saving to the country would be any thing like what that hon. and gallant Officer believed.
§ Mr. Huntsaid, that the country was now in a tranquil state, and the army might be reduced. Instead of the number of men being what it was proposed to vote—viz. 89,478 men, exclusive of the forces employed in the East Indies—he begged to move an Amendment to reduce that number by 8,000, which was the number of men employed when the Tory Administration, under the Duke of Wellington, quitted office.
§ Amendment negatived, and the original motion agreed to.
§ The sum of 3,170,779l. 19s. 2d. was voted to his Majesty for defraying the charges of the men employed in Great Britain and the colonies, except the territories of the East-India Company, from the 1st of April, 1832, to the 31st of March, 1833, inclusive.
§ The House resumed.