Sir James Grahamsaid, that he hardly knew how to proceed, whether to bring on the Navy Estimates, which were yet unvoted, at that hour, as, in case any discussion were to take place, it might be so much protracted as to render it scarcely worth while to trouble the House to go into Committee, or to postpone the subject till another day.
§ Sir George Cockburnbegged to assure the right hon. Baronet that no opposition calculated to retard the vote would be offered either on his part, or on the part of those hon. Members who sat near him.
§ The House then resolved into a Committee of Supply.
§ On the Motion of Sir James Graham, that a sum not exceeding 72,000l. be granted to his Majesty for the purpose of defraying the wages of men and other expenses attendant on the ships laid up in ordinary,
§ Sir George Clerksaid, he did not mean to object to the vote, but, he thought, the sum required was not sufficient for the service required. Two items which formerly used to be included in this vote, were now transferred to another part of the Esti- 925 mates, but, after deducting them, the reduction was still very considerable. It had been found necessary of late years to increase the amount per man, and the right hon. Baronet had pursued the same course last year, and he, therefore, doubted the propriety of reducing the amount at present. He was aware of the right hon. Baronet's anxiety to reduce the expenditure to the lowest possible point, but, he had no fund in store for this especial purpose, as he had with regard to timber and provisions, and, as the expenditure for last year had amounted to 1,077,000l. and the right hon. Baronet had only voted 894,000l. for the present year he feared he might fall short; and, if he did on this point—of the payment of seamen's wages—he could have no other resource than to resort to the same practice he had so much condemned in his predecessors by appropriating money voted for one branch of the naval service to some other.
Sir James Grahamsaid, after very fully considering the subject, he was confident the sum he asked for, was sufficient for the service required, the principle on which the Estimate was made was, to calculate the number of officers and men employed in the different rates of ships, the number of those ships and the amount of wages in each rate for thirteen lunar months.
§ Vote agreed to, as were the following, 42,269l. 11s. 1d. for the salaries of officers, and the contingent expenses of the Admiralty,
§ 30,356l. for salaries of officers and contingent expenses of the Navy Pay Office.
§ 20,051l. for the salaries of officers and contingent expenses of the scientific department of the Navy.
§ Upon the grant of 72,224l. for the salaries of officers and contingent expenses in his Majesty's yards at home being moved,
§ Sir George Clerksaid, that, as he considered some of the reductions of the right hon. Baronet to have been carried too far to benefit the public service, he would point out an instance in which that effect would be produced; he meant the abolition of the Deptford dock-yard. He believed that the entire removal of that establishment would be an injury to the public service, as it had afforded a convenient means of inspecting all the articles supplied to the service by contract before they were sent out. These must now be sent at once to the different yards, where they were wanted, and as had formerly been the case, they would be often found of inferior quality. If the right 926 hon. Baronet would take the trouble to inquire he would find that where contractors had been allowed to supply articles at the out-stations, such as clothing, or other articles in which the quality varied, without first having them passed through the dépôt at Deptford yard, to ascertain their proper quality, they were often found not answerable to contract and were consequently, rejected. For this a limited establishment was kept up, and was of great value in securing the efficiency of the supply to the service. With regard to the other reductions, the right hon. Baronet claimed to have made, the former practice was, to have a master at the head of each trade, who was answerable for the goodness of the workmanship, these persons were paid about 200l. a-year, but the right hon. Baronet had superannuated them at about 120l. a-year and upwards, and had employed foremen in their stead at about 100l. a-year. So that there was actually a loss to the public, besides the chance of not having the work so well done.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that all hope of reduction was at an end if the present vote was opposed. He begged to remind the hon. Baronet that Woolwich, being within three miles of Deptford, was just as convenient a receiving yard as the latter, and by making it such, a great saving was made. As to the substituting foremen for masters, a reduction of expense would be caused alternately, and there would be no deterioration in the quality of the work done.
Mr. Humesuggested that Pembroke dock-yard should be put down. We had no occasion to build ships, as we had already more ships than we could man, even in case of war.
§ Sir George Cockburnwas convinced of the propriety of keeping up Pembroke dock-yard: it was a cheap yard, where timber could be had on the best terms, and from which ships could he launched at once into deep water. He denied that we had more ships in ordinary than we could man in time of war.
Mr. Humesaid, it was a waste of the public money to go on constructing ships for no other purpose but to be left to rot in time of peace.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the best way of preserving peace was to be prepared for war; and it was necessary for the safety of the country that the power of the navy should be kept up.
§ Sir George Cockburnsaid, that any one holding the responsibility of the First Lord 927 of the Admiralty must feel the necessity of keeping up a sufficient navy to maintain the power of this great maritime country at the breaking out of war. If the hon. Member supposed that, in the event of a sudden war, the having a sum of money ready would command a navy he was greatly mistaken.
§ Vote agreed to as were the following:—
§ 17,116l. for the salaries and contingent expenses of officers in his Majesty's yards abroad.
§ 401,492l. 9s. for the wages of of artificers and labourers employed in the dockyards at home and abroad.
§ On the sum of 457,207l. for the purchase of timber for the building, repairing, and outfitting of ships, wharf's, docks, &c., being proposed,
Mr. Humesaid, several frigates had been recently sold from the public service but only on condition of their being broken up. He was assured these vessels would have realized more if that condition had not been attached to the sale, and, he begged, therefore, to know the reason of this proceeding. Surely it arose from no absurd apprehension of these ships being brought against us, in the event of any future war.
Sir James Grahamassured his hon. friend, it was from no such fear that the condition was imposed, but it was necessary to prevent frauds being committed on the public stores, particularly in the article of copper. These articles were all duly marked, and if they were left in ships after they had been sold from the service of the Crown, they might be made a plea to cover the obtaining such articles surreptitiously from the dock-yards, which would most likely occasion a greater loss than the difference in the value of the ships sold, could make up.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Upon the vote of 77,000l. for the charge of repairs and improvements of his Majesty's yards at home and abroad,
§ Sir George Cockburnthought that the sum of 30,000l. included in this vote for the building of docks at Woolwich, was unnecessary. He, therefore, recommended the right hon. Baronet to consider whether that expense could not be saved. At the same time, he must say, he approved of the other work proposed for that dock-yard, namely, the making straight the river wall. He had doubts, however, as to the propriety of making Woolwich a large dépôt. It was entirely overlooked by the adjacent 928 town, and thereby afforded facilities for any evil-disposed person to throw firebrands into it, besides there was shoal water off the yard, which would make it inconvenient for repairing large ships.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that he had considered the subject, and was satisfied that the sum would be well laid out. The use of steam-vessels must be adopted in our navy, and they were now constructing vessels of that description of a large size, and as the machinery was all to be got from London, it would be highly advantageous that the vessels should be built and repaired at Woolwich.
§ Sir Byam Martinrecommended the right hon. Baronet to postpone his determination for another year, and not to build more docks, of which he thought there were quite sufficient, particularly as a patent had been obtained for a slip in which ships could be hauled up for repair.
Mr. Humethought the vote ought to be withdrawn after what the Committee had heard from the two right hon. Baronets. The Admiralty had already expended large sums for building and repairing docks at Chatham, and other places, which he had objected to when the vote was proposed, and it now appeared, a new plan had been brought forward, by which they were likely to be rendered useless.
Sir James Grahamsaid, he understood the patent slip alluded to by the right hon. Baronet could not be made applicable for steam-vessels of 800 tons, such as they were now building.
§ Sir George Clerkunderstood quite the contrary, his information went to the extent of showing that vessels of 1,000 tons might be hauled up in Mr. Moreton's patent slip, therefore, he was convinced the proposed new docks were unnecessary.
Mr. Warburtonthought the House should be put in possession of the probable expense of erecting new docks, instead of repairing the old ones, before they sanctioned this vote, which was only for one of these docks, and would be followed next year by a similar application to the extent of 100,000l. for the two other docks.
Sir James Grahamsaid his great object in proposing the building of these docks was to ensure facilities for building and repairing steam-vessels, which were likely hereafter to form a very important part of our naval force. He would, however, acquiesce in the proposal of the hon. member for Bridport, and consent to lower in the present instance this estimate, to the extent 929 of the 30,000l. intended for this dock, and prepare an estimate of the comparative expense of repairing the old, or constructing new docks, for the consideration of Parliament.
§ Vote for 47,000l. agreed to, as was 38,980l. to defray the charges of pilotage, and other contingencies.
§ The question being put, that a sum of 21,953l. 10s. be granted for expense of troop ships,
§ Sir George Clerkbegged to be informed whether any person was to have the examination of vessels hired for transports, before they were taken into the public service? It was of the utmost importance that their quality and fitness should be duly ascertained before they were engaged.
Mr. Alderman Thompsoncould not approve of the practice of employing the public ships as transports upon any occasion. Such a plan had been recently adopted in several instances, under the pretence that they were larger and of greater capacity to accommodate troops than private vessels, but, he understood, the fact was not so to any great extent, and he had reason to believe it was made up by increased expense. It was well known, that many private vessels of large burthen, which would answer the purpose very well, and were now doing nothing, might be had at the small charge of 12s. per ton, and in the depressed state of the shipping interest they ought to be employed.
Sir James Grahamassured the worthy Alderman, that both from duty and inclination, he was extremely desirous to assist the shipping interest, as he was convinced private vessels formed the best school to educate seamen. He must, therefore, beg leave to tell him there was no intention to employ more than two public ships of large capacity calculated to carry a regiment of cavalry and their horses at once, and the exigences of the public service required such an arrangement.
§ Vote agreed to, as were 18,520l. for hire, &c. of packets, and of 785,507l. 16s. 4d. to defray half-pay, &c. of naval officers; 253,525l. 3s. 4d. for pensions to naval officers, &c.; 1,300l. charge for bounty to chaplains.
§ On the Motion that 250,000l. be granted for the payment of the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital,
Mr. Humesaid, there was an increase in 930 the amount of this charge, which, he wished should be accounted for.
Sir James Grahamsaid, the charge was increased apparently in consequence of a larger sum being claimed last year by 5,000l. than the year before for arrears of prize money, but, in point of fact, the charge was reduced 4,200l.
§ Colonel Sibthorpsaid, he would take that opportunity to notice that great complaints were made of the difficulty the relatives of sailors experienced in recovering arrears of prize money. He understood that, unless proof of death could be procured, fifteen years must elapse before the money was paid over.
§ Sir George Cockburnsaid, the time was six years, but the Admiralty had the power to abridge the period when they saw occasion, but, it was necessary to exercise the greatest caution as constant attempts were made to commit frauds.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the motion that 157,002l. 7s. be granted for superannuations to commissioners and persons formerly employed in the civil departments of the navy,
Mr. Humesaid, that superannuations in these departments were carried to much too great an extent, persons were pensioned after a few years' service, who had no claim. He did hope the matter would be looked into by those in office, or he should be compelled to further notice it.
§ Vote agreed to, as was 1,500l. to defray the charges of the freight of ships for the conveyance of passengers and stores for the Colonial Department; and also the following votes:—88,525l. for the transport of convicts; 421,200l. for the victualling of 27,000 men employed in the navy for one year; 48,977l. 4s. 9d. for the salaries of officers and contingent expenses of the victualling yards; 24,905l. 14s. for the expense of naval and medical establishments; 50,105l. 14s. for medical stores, &c.; 29,347l. 10s. for provision of officers and ships laid up in ordinary; 8,970l. for charge of provision, &c.; for men in different yards on service afloat; 29,168l. 1s. 6d. for the charge of marines on shore; 34,283l. for half-pay pensions and superannuations of the victualling, medical, and transport departments; 150,000l. for provisions of troops and convicts proceeding to, or returning from foreign stations.
§ House resumed, Committee to sit again.