HC Deb 19 June 1832 vol 13 cc874-97
Mr. Hume

presented Petitions from the Political Union of Shoreditch, and from Samuel Smith, praying for an inquiry into the case of Somerville, a private soldier of the 2nd Dragoon Guards, who had been flogged for writing a letter to a newspaper. Petitions read, and ordered to be printed.

Mr. Hunt

then proceeded to bring forward a Motion for the suspension of the punishment of flogging in the army during one year. For many years he had been convinced, not only of the inhumanity, but the inefficiency, of the practice he was desirous to see abolished. He regretted that the subject had not fallen into abler hands; but, however unequal he might be to the task he had undertaken, he should yield in zeal and anxiety to none. He should place before the House facts which could not be contradicted, and he was the more encouraged to do this, because his Majesty's Ministers, when in Opposition, were friendly to the mitigation, if not to the abolition, of flogging as a military punishment. For years he had heard with disgust and abhorrence of the treatment which private soldiers experienced in the British army. He remembered full well, that in the 15th Light Dragoons, then commanded by his royal highness the Duke of Cumberland, two private soldiers had, to avoid the punishment of flogging, put themselves to death, the one by drowning, and the other by cutting his throat. To exemplify the evil consequences which resulted from this species of punishment, he would beg leave to refer to a higher authority than his own; to a letter which had been addressed to Sir F. Burdett, by a soldier who had served upwards of forty years in the British army, who, though he had subsequently risen to the rank of Lieutenant, had originally been a Drummer, and who stated, that he had himself inflicted this torture three times a week upon his comrades, during the eight years which he remained a Drummer. That letter had been written to Sir F. Burdett (whom he was sorry not to see in his place that evening, for the hon. Baronet must have been an able advocate of his Motion) by a Mr. Shipp, who had risen from the ranks to a lieutenancy in the service. It was entitled, "A Voice from the Ranks, by John Shipp, late a Lieutenant in the 67th Foot." He (Mr. Hunt) was prepared to bring Lieutenant Shipp forward to substantiate the facts in that letter, either at the bar of the House, or before any Committee that might be appointed. There were many Officers, members of that House, who could speak to the gallantry of Mr. Shipp, but unfortunately they were not present, as they deemed Ascot Heath races better amusement than listening to a speech from him (Mr. Hunt), on such a subject as Military Flogging. Sir John Malcolm, and several military Officers who had served under his command, had, he believed, read every word in the very instructive yet entertaining volume which he then held in his hand. Mr. Shipp expressed himself in the following manner:—'It is some consolation to me to be able to say, that my present views are not induced by the remembrance of personal castigation; but from the practical observation of its effect on others, I can most solemnly affirm that, in my opinion, flogging is, and always will be, the best, the quickest, and most certain method that can be devised, to eradicate from the bosom of a British soldier his most loyal and laudable feelings. During the whole of my career, which included a period of upwards of thirty years, and the length and nature of which afforded me opportunities for extensive inquiry and accurate information, I never knew but one solitary instance in which a man recovered self-respect and general reputation, after having been tortured and degraded by the punishment of flogging'. This isolated case was as follows:—'When I was regimental Serjeant-Major in the Light Dragoons, the regiment was one evening paraded, for the purpose of seeing punishment inflicted. The delinquent was a private soldier, who had, on previous occasions received, altogether, some thousands of lashes. Since his first flogging his name had been constantly in the guard reports, and he had scarcely ever done a day's duty. His offence, on this occasion, was being drunk on guard, and his sentence was 300 lashes. The court-martial was read, and even before it was finished he began to undress with apparent and sullen apathy. He knew the heinousness of his crime, and he was well aware of its certain consequences. When he was tied, his naked back presented so appalling and frightful a spectacle, that his kind-hearted commanding officer, on viewing it, turned his head instinctively from the sight and stood absorbed in thought, with his eyes in another direction, as though reluctant to look on it again. Thus stood the commanding officer, until the Adjutant informed him that all was ready. These words roused the Colonel from his motionless position, and he started when the Adjutant addressed him. I can well imagine the struggle between duty and mercy by which his benevolent heart was assailed; but the latter was always his motto, and, thus kindly predisposed, he walked slowly up to the prisoner, and viewed more closely his lacerated back, on which were visible large lumps of thick and callous flesh, and weals which were distressing to behold. The Colonel viewed his back for some seconds, unknown to the delinquent, and, when he at length turned round (more from surprise that the flogging did not commence than from any other motive), his commanding officer addressed him in the following words:—"C——, you are now tied up to receive the just reward of your total disregard and defiance of all order and discipline. Your back presents an awful spectacle to your surrounding comrades, and, for my own part, I would willingly withdraw it from their sight, but I fear that your heart is as hard as your back, and that I have no alternative but to see that justice administered which the service requires. What possible benefit can you expect to derive from this continual disobedience of orders, and disregard of the regulations of the service?" Thus addressed, in a mingled tone of benignity and firmness, the poor fellow seemed touched, and he wept bitterly. For a time he could say nothing; but at last he exclaimed, "I wish to God I was dead and out of your way; I am an unfortunate fellow, and I hope this flogging may be my last, and put me beyond the reach of that cursed and vile liquor which has been my ruin." The Colonel and the whole regiment were now much affected, and many of the soldiers turned away their heads to hide their emotions. Seeing this, the Colonel called the attention of the offender to the commiseration of his comrades. The unhappy man looked round as he was directed, and seemed much distressed. The Colonel then said, "I cannot bear to see your brother soldiers so much affected for you without remov- ing the cause. Your sentence, therefore, for their sakes, I will remit, and, instead of the chastisement which has been awarded you, and which you so well deserve, if you will pledge yourself to me, in the presence of your commiserating comrades, that you will behave well in future, I will not only pardon you, but promise, when your conduct shall merit it, to promote you to the rank of Corporal." The astonished culprit called on his comrades to bear witness to his words, while, in a most solemn manner, he protested his firm resolution to amend. A short time after, this man was promoted, and proved one of the best non-commissioned officers in the service. The unlooked-for mercy which had been extended towards him, and the totally unexpected turn which the affair had taken, raised the feelings of his heart far above the level to which disgrace had plunged them, and every exertion was made by him to merit the kind consideration with which he had been distinguished. This man would often speak to me on this happy event in his life with feelings of ineffable pleasure. Mr. Shipp mentioned another case which had taken place under his own eyes. It was the case of a man who had been sentenced, for some military offence, to receive 300 lashes. The man received them without a groan; but, as he marched out of the square, said, on passing his commanding officer, "The devil a day's work will you ever get out of Paddy again." He would quote some other equally instructive instances. 'Another man,' continued the hon. Member, reading from Mr. Shipp's pamphlet, 'an old offender, who had been frequently punished before, was ordered to strip to receive another flagellation. This fellow, however, would not at first take off his clothes, and, consequently, coercive measures were resorted to; but such was the man's power, that he defied the united efforts of numbers, until he at last exclaimed, "Now, if you will only be shivil, I will do it myself without any help." He then stripped, and received his quantum of punishment without moving a muscle, and, when taken down, he said to the Colonel, "Colonel, honey! if you will give me six drams of liquor, I will take 600 lashes more." To such a pitch of degradation was this poor creature reduced, that he would expose his lacerated back to his comrades, and prided himself exceedingly on the number of lashes he had received.

On my return home one evening, after having attended the funeral of a soldier belonging to my own company, I got into conversation with the Serjeant, relative to the deceased. The Serjeant, who was quite an illiterate man, said, "the people in the hospital say he died of an information in his side, but he knowed the real cause of his death. That 'ere man never did no good since the time he was flogged for being drunk 'fore guard. He knowed the man well; he was a fine high-spirited youth. Bless you, Sir, before his punishment there was not a smarter or finer looking soldier in the King's army; but, after he was flogged, he never did no more good, but became a dirty, slovenly fellow, and was never sober if he had the means of getting liquor. I have heard him declare that his heart was broken, and that, if liquor did not soon close his miserable life, he would take some more speedy means." This last desperate alternative was never necessary, for he died of drunkenness ere he had attained the age of twentysix, adding to the long catalogue of those whose buoyant spirits could not brook the degradation of the cat.

When I was orderly officer of the main-guard at Cawnpore, several men were condemned to be punished. Among the rest was a youth not more than twenty years of age. The morning on which the punishment was to be inflicted I visited the prisoners early, and such was the change observable in this poor young fellow, from reflecting during the night on his approaching degradation, 'that he looked like one whose constitution had, in a few hours, undergone all the diseases incident to the country. His eyes were glassy and inexpressive, his cheeks sunk, and his deportment stooping and loose. Altogether he looked the very picture of woe, and his extreme dejection was so obvious, that I could not refrain from asking him if he was unwell. "No," replied he, "but I am one of those who are to be flogged this morning," and he wept bitterly. "Come, come," said I (and it was as much as I dared to say), keep up your spirits; your extreme youth, and the fact that this is the first time you have been brought to a court-martial, may, probably, obtain your pardon." He shook his head, but said nothing in reply. I regret to be obliged to add, that this poor fellow received 150 lashes; and, from the day he was flogged until the period of his death, I can venture to assert that he was never two hours sober. He sold all his own things to purchase liquor, and then stole those of others; and at last he died in the hospital from drunkenness.

The following is a melancholy instance of the same character as the foregoing, in which it is my painful duty to attest the utter ruin of another promising young soldier, by the odious system, the existence of which I deplore. Two men were brought to court-martial. The one was an old and hardened offender, whose offence was being drunk on guard, and who was sentenced to receive 300 lashes; the other, a youth, who, for his first offence, absenting himself from evening parade, was condemned to 100 lashes. The former was admonished by his commanding officer, his corporal punishment remitted, and his sentence commuted to fourteen days' solitary confinement. This proposal, however, the hardened delinquent rejected with indignation, professing that he would rather take 1,400 lashes than suffer fourteen days' solitary 'confinement in the black-hole. He accordingly received his punishment, without moving a muscle, and afterwards, on leaving the square, strutted off, muttering something like "D—d hoax," or "fudge." The conduct of this depraved fellow nettled the commanding officer, and he ordered the youth to strip and receive his punishment. The poor fellow threw himself on his knees and implored forgiveness in the most earnest and pathetic manner, or that, in preference to the degradation of flogging, his punishment might be commuted to solitary confinement, if even for six months. But, no; the officer was irritated,—he hoped the Secretary at War would listen to this:—'the officer was irritated, and the unhappy youth received every lash, after which he left the square sobbing most piteously. During the infliction of the punishment, many a tear did I see that morning stealing down the cheeks of the commiserating comrades of this ill-fated youth, for they well knew that his prospects as a soldier were irretrievably blighted. From this time forth, day after day, and week after week, might this sad victim of "discipline" be seen prowling about (when not in the guard-room for subsequent misconduct, which, after this event, was constantly the case), with a dejected and care-worn countenance, pensive and gloomy, as though he had lost some dear relative, or rather, perhaps, as though he had committed an act on account of which he dared not look an honest man in the face. The disgrace he had endured had sunk deep into his heart; a leprosy pervaded his mind; and, in despair, he sought consolation from drink, which soon brought to a termination both his troubles and his life.

One wintry morning, when the bleak wind whistled along the ranks of a regiment paraded to see corporal punishment inflicted, every eye was turned in pity towards the delinquent, until the commanding officer, with Stentorian lungs, pronounced the awful word "Strip, sir." The morning was bitterly cold; the black clouds rolled along in quick succession; and the weather altogether was such, that the mere exposure of a man's naked body was of itself a severe punishment. The crime of this man was repeated drunkenness, of which he had, undoubtedly, been guilty; but what was the cause of this constant inebriety? Let us trace the evil to its source. It was the sad recollection of his former disgrace by flogging, to which the course of intoxication that he now pursued might justly have been attributed. When the offender was tied, or rather hung up by the hands, his back, from intense cold and the effects of previous floggings, exhibited a complete blue and black appearance. On the first lash the blood spirted out some yards, and, after he had received fifty, his back, from the neck to the waist, was one continued stream of blood. The sufferer flinched not a jot, neither did he utter a single murmur, but bore the whole of his punishment with a degree of indifference bordering upon insensibility, chewing, all the while, what I was afterwards informed was a piece of lead or a bullet. When the poor fellow was taken down, he staggered and fell to the ground. His legs and arms, owing to the intense cold, and the long period they had remained in one position, still continued distended, and he was obliged to be conveyed to the hospital in a dooly, a kind of palanquin in which sick soldiers are carried. This unfortunate creature shortly afterwards shot himself in his barrack-room, in a sad state of intoxication, and was borne to his solitary pit, and hurled in like a dog. No inquiries were made as to the causes to which this rash act might have been assigned. If any such investigation had been deemed requisite, ample attestations might have been produced, from which it would have appeared that this poor wretch had scarcely ever looked up from the date of his first flogging; that his prospects as a soldier had been utterly destroyed; and that his degradation had been so acutely felt by him, as to paralyze his best efforts towards amendment, and at length to sink him into a state of worthlessness and despair.

I come now to a case which I have good cause to remember with feelings of intense pain, as the poor sufferer had exhibited much kindness to me on numerous occasions. When I was at the Cape, in 1798 or 1799 (I forget which), a Serjeant in the regiment in which I served was sentenced to be reduced to the ranks, and to receive 100 lashes. The man was, I think, one of the finest soldiers I ever saw; in his manners firm, but respectful and unassuming; in his principles, strict and honest; and in his person, handsome and commanding. He had been Pay-Serjeant for many years in the regiment, and a kind friend to me. In pursuance of his sentence, the stripes which distinguished him as Serjeant were torn from his brave arm, and trampled in the dust; and, when he was ordered to strip, the most intense silence prevailed throughout the ranks, and every heart beat high with the fear that forgiveness was now hopeless. The result was looked for with breathless anxiety, and probably it was expected that the offender would have pleaded something in extenuation of his fault; but, to an ardent love which this man entertained for his profession, was added a manly pride, which probably restrained him from begging publicly for pardon. Certain it is, however, that he did not utter a word. The command "Go on" was given, and a half-suppressed groan of horror was audible throughout the square. The savage infliction commenced; but scarcely had he received five lashes, when his affectionate wife rushed through the square, and threw herself between him and the Drummer. The half-frantic woman was dragged forcibly from the spot, and her husband received every lash to which he had been condemned! From this moment he never looked up, but soon sunk into the grave, leaving a wife and child.

In the experimental corps in which I commenced my military career, I recollect two boys being sentenced to be flogged for desertion: they were brothers, and the elder was not more than thirteen years of age. They had deserted altogether, and probably intended to have gone home again, not much relishing their new mode of life. The elder boy was tied up first, and having received about six dozen lashes he was ordered down, and it became the turn of his younger brother to occupy his place. Afflicted by the idea of what his poor little brother was about to suffer, the senior boy begged, in the most earnest manner, that he might be permitted to take his brother's punishment, protesting, most solemnly, that he was the sole cause of his desertion. When this was refused, and the younger one was ordered to strip, the shrieks of the two rent the air. They flew into each other's arms, clung together, and, when they were torn asunder, the tear of pity started to the eyes of all around. The little fellow received every lash to which he had been sentenced; and in little more than a year after, there were not two greater reprobates or vagabonds in the whole corps. The elder boy soon died. Of the fate of the younger I cannot speak with certainty; but I think he was found drowned in Table Bay, at the Cape of Good Hope'. He hoped the House would bear with him, though he was trespassing so much upon its attention and patience; but this was a subject which he had considered it his duty, ever since he had been in the House, to bring forward. He had, on two former occasions, very slightly touched upon it; but he had been met by resistance on the part of his Majesty's Government. He now seriously pledged himself to prove, either at the bar of the House, or in Committee, the whole of the facts he had been stating, if the House would listen to the proposition which he should presently submit to it. In reading these statements, he hoped hon. Members would do him the justice to believe, that he did so out of respect to the House; he had never had the courage nor the hardihood to witness a single military flogging; therefore, he was doing the House more justice by reading these facts, than by making his own statement, which, for the reason he had alleged, must be, to a certain extent, imaginary; when it was considered too, that at this very moment there was a soldier in the Scotch Greys, of the name of Somerville, who had been lately sentenced to receive 200 lashes for an offence he had never committed—for no offence at all—that he had actually received 100 lashes, and was now lying in the guard-house to receive another 100.—[Mr. Robert Grant: No! no! that is against the law.] He certainly did not wish to state anything which he could not prove, and he was not able to prove this fact; but he was stating it from the authority of a petition which was then lying on the Table. He would proceed, therefore, to read that which he was prepared to prove. The hon. Member again quoted from Mr. Shipp's Book:—'One morning I attended parade, when a wretched looking half-dead young lad was tied up for flogging; but the doctor reported him unfit to receive his punishment, as the wounds on his back, received in a former flagellation, were not healed. He was taken down and sent to the hospital, and in one week after, I followed him to his grave! Whether the poor fellow's death was to be attributed to the punishment he had suffered, or to the effect of that punishment on his mind, and consequently on his frame, I cannot take upon myself to pronounce; but I fear it must be assigned to one or other of these causes.

I one day attended the hospital as orderly officer, and when I asked, as was my duty, if there were any complaints, a man with a dejected and maniac visage, bellowed out, "Yes, I have a complaint to make, that neither you nor the King of England can remedy." I asked him, in the kindest manner, what it was? He laughed most terrifically, and said, "Don't you know that I have been flogged for being drunk on parade—one hour's neglect of duty." I replied that I was sorry for it, when he rejoined, "So am I most heartily, and the service will lose an old and faithful soldier by it." A short time after this, the poor fellow was found drowned; but whether this proceeded from intention, or from a fit of inebriety, no trace was left us to judge, and, as there are no coroner's inquests in the upper provinces of India, the event was buried with the man; but I should imagine, from his frantic manner to me, and the sort of threat which accompanied it, that it was desperation that had wrought this dreadful catastrophe.

The instances which I have now laid before you, Sir, in proof of the evil effects of flogging soldiers, will perhaps find their way to the heart sooner than all the arguments that can be urged against this barbarous mode of punishment. That the castigation is cruel and agonizing, those who have ever witnessed its infliction cannot doubt; yet it is not, as I think—

Mr. Robinson

rose to order. The House had listened with a great deal of forbearance to the hon. Gentleman, while he had been reading statements of facts; and there had been no indisposition on the part of the House to pay every attention to those statements; but when the hon. Gentleman proceeded to read, not facts but arguments, he was exceeding the usual limits allowed to Members in quoting from published works.

The Speaker

said, it was difficult to say, precisely, what should be the limits to which any Gentleman might proceed in reading extracts from a printed document, as a portion of his speech. He must, however, observe, that since he had had the honour of sitting in the Chair, he never had heard so long a time occupied in reading as the hon. Gentleman had already consumed. Still, the matter must depend upon the feelings of the House, and the discretion of the hon. Member, though he would undoubtedly govern himself according to what he perceived to be the sense of the House on the subject.

Mr. Hunt

was aware of the great kindness with which the Speaker had mentioned the rule of the House, and he should be very sorry to inflict any punishment on the House, or to overstep the bounds of a just discretion; but this was a point of so much importance, that he must go on. He would, however, as much as possible, refrain from reading the aguments, and read only the facts contained in Mr. Shipp's pamphlet. He admitted it was an unusual course to read long extracts, but he recollected on one occasion, when he was a mere listener in the gallery, that h e heard the late Sir John Cox Hippisley read a pamplet of his own, for two hours and a-half, on the subject of Catholic Emancipation, and if he had not met with such a precedent as that, he should not have taken up so much time on the present occasion. But he would venture to read a few more facts. The statement he was about to read was worthy of the attention not only of the Secretary-at-War, but of all his colleagues in the Administration; for it was the only part of the pamphlet which he should have doubted, as it spoke of a practice which was as clearly illegal, as it was in a moral sense, tyrannical. 'I am now, Sir, about to notice another abuse to which the flogging system has given birth, and which in my opinion, deserves severe reprobation. It is, I believe, but of late years that the practice to which I allude has crept into the service; but I am informed that it has actually become, in some regiments, an established rule. It consists in giving a soldier who has fallen under the displeasure of his commanding-officer, the choice, either to receive a certain number of lashes—say fifty 100, or 150, as the case may be, or to abide the decision of a court-martial.' Mr. Shipp stated that he had himself been ordered to make such a proposition to a soldier. He should hope there was no such thing practised now. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman opposite was prepared to show that there was not; because it must be, contrary to law. But to proceed: 'When at Jersey, in the year 1808, it was my painful duty to witness the in fliction of corporal punishment almost every week. This was not in my own regiment, for the Colonel of our corps, Lieutenant-colonel John Covell, was one who never resorted to flogging, except as a last resource, and then with great reluctance, and with feelings of sorrow that he had no alternative. At the period of which I speak, we were at war with France, but, in one of the battalions of the 60th regiment, then at Jersey, we had many French soldiers. Many of these men deserted, and most of them were taken in the attempt. When we consider that they were natives of France, it is no great wonder, that when a war broke out, they should attempt to quit the English service, in preference to fighting against their own country; and, in my humble opinion, it would have been neither unwise nor impolitic to have discharged them all; for men who would be base enough to fight against their own country, could scarcely be considered fit to be trusted by any other power. But, be this as it may, many of these men were taken, and sentenced to receive 1,000 lashes each for their desertion. This punishment was rigidly inflicted, with the additional torture which must have resulted from the number of five being slowly counted between each lash; so that, upon a fair calculation, each delinquent received one lash every twelve seconds, and consequently, the space of three hours and twenty minutes was occupied in inflicting the total punishment; as though 1,000 lashes were not of themselves a sufficiently awful sentence, without so cruel and unnecessary a prolongation of misery. Many of these poor creatures fainted several times from intensity of bodily suffering; but, having been restored to their senses by medicinal applications, the moment they could move their heads the castigation recommenced in all its rigour. Numbers of them were taken down and carried from the square in a state of utter insensibility. The spectacle, altogether, instead of operating as an example to others, created disgust and abhorrence in the breast of every soldier present who was worthy of the name of man.

The following is a picture of the revolting ceremony of flogging, for which, I apprehend, few persons will be prepared. From the very first day I entered the service as drum-boy, and for eight years after, I can venture to assert that, at the lowest calculation, it was my disgusting duty to flog men at least three times a week. From this painful task there was no possibility of shrinking, without the certainty of a rattan over my own shoulders by the drum-major, or of my being sent to the black-hole. When the infliction was ordered to commence, each drum-boy, in rotation, is obliged to strip for the purpose of administering five-and-twenty lashes (slowly counted by the Drum-major), with freedom and vigour. In this practice of stripping there always appeared to me something so unnatural, inhuman, and butcher-like, that I have often felt most acutely my own degradation in being compelled to conform to it. After a poor fellow had received about 100 lashes, the blood would flow down his back in streams, and fly about in all directions with every additional blow of the instrument of torture; so that, by the time he had received 300, I have found my clothes all over blood, from the knees to the crown of my head, and have looked as though I had just emerged from a slaughter-house. Horrified at my disgusting appearance, immediately after parade I have run into the barrack-room to escape from the observation of the soldiers, and to rid my clothes and person of my comrades blood. Here I have picked and washed off my clothes pieces of skin and flesh that had been cut from the poor sufferers back. What the flogging in Newgate or Bride-well may be, I do not know, but this is military flogging.

I am ignorant what kind of cats were used when this pernicious system was first introduced into the army, but they are now, I believe, very different in different regiments, and, indeed, there is sometimes a variety kept in the same corps. Those which I have seen and used were made of a thick and strong kind of whipcord; and in each lash, nine in number, and generally about two feet long, were tied three large knots, so that a poor wretch who was doomed to receive 1,000 lashes, had 27,000 knots cutting into his back; and men have declared to me, that the sensation experienced at each lash, was as though the talons of a hawk were tearing the flesh off their bones.

Have the advocates for the continuance of this barbarous system ever handled one of these savage instruments? Have they ever poised the cat in their hands when clotted with a soldiers blood after punishment had been inflicted? If not, let me inform them, that it has then almost weight enough to stun an ox, and requires the greatest exertion and dexterity in the Drummer to wield it. I have heard poor fellows declare that, in this state, it falls like a mass of lead upon their backs.

If those whose duty it is to form the code of military laws will allow soldiers to possess the common feelings and sensibilities of other men, it must be obvious that degrading a man, by flogging him like some vile miscreant, must be attended with great and irreparable injury to the service. Since I entered the army, the practice of flogging has considerably abated, thanks to the noble advocated, for its total abolition: but, even still, the terrific cries for mercy are heard from the ranks of almost every regiment in the service, especially those which are abroad. If a man deserve such ignominy and debasement, he is unfit for a soldier, and ought to be discharged the service. Often have I been agonized to see the skin torn off the poor sufferer's wrists and legs, by lugging him up to the triangles as you would the vilest miscreant of the land, and afterwards an inexperienced drum-boy flogging him over the face and eyes. I have heard men beg for a drop of water to cool their parched mouths and burning tongues, which has been denied them.'

There were many in that House who would recollect the story of Lazarus and the rich man; and what the individual there offered for a drop of water to cool his palate; and when those Gentlemen had pictured to their imaginations the sufferings which the soldier must endure, who was tied up, and receiving 1,000 lashes, they would be able to conceive what was the distress of Dives; they might then judge of the horrible system pursued in our army for preserving military discipline, when they reflected, that like the man we read of in Scripture, these victims begged for a drop of water, and it was denied them. This was the treatment of the poor, and wretched, and tortured private soldier. After the admonitions which he had received, he should refrain from reading the arguments and reasonings of this gentleman, which would have, however, much more effect than anything which he (Mr. Hunt) could offer. Mr. Shipp said, that from the time he was a Drummer, to the period at which he became Drum-major, he must have flogged, or have assisted in flogging, during those eight years, no less than 1,248 soldiers. He declared, that if he were to see a regiment just returned from abroad, he would venture to pick out every man as he stept on shore, who had suffered the disgrace and torture of military flogging. Such a man offered an appearance so altered, so dejected, and so degraded, as compared with that of the man who never had been flogged, that he appeared entirely different from his comrades. The inference which Mr. Shipp drew from all the facts which had fallen under his notice, and in which he concurred, was this:—that no good was ever done by flogging; or, at most, only this, that, when in action, those who had suffered under the lash became the most desperate, and the most barbarous, perhaps, of any men in the field; and were driven to do the rashest and maddest acts, willingly exposing their lives, and rushing upon destruction, in order to rid themselves of an existence which the ignominy of the torture had rendered intolerable. He perfectly agreed with Mr. Shipp, that it was impossible for a man who had suffered the brutal torture of flogging ever to make a good soldier. When a person had once received the lash, he never held up his head again. He, therefore, protested against the inutility as well as the inhumanity of this practice. He was anxious, for the sake of humanity, and for the character of the army, to get rid of it. He was aware that the punishment of flogging was inflicted now much less than it was formerly. At the period when the present Speaker became Judge Advocate, the practice of flogging was very frequent; and when he left that, situation, the infliction of this species of punishment was much diminished. It then became the fashion with officers, who thought such a circumstance must be a feather in their caps, to report to the War-office that very little flogging had taken place in the regiments under their command during the year. He hoped this salutary fashion was still continued; but, when floggings such as had recently been inflicted at Birmingham, and as occurred frequently in the Bird-cage-walk were still heard of, he was afraid it was not. He appealed to the Secretary-at-War, who, out of office devoted his talents, his eloquence, and his zeal, to promote the object he had in view to support his Motion. He was aware that flogging was the law of the land; he knew that the Mutiny Act had passed, and that it must remain in force unless there was a fresh Act of Parliament. He, therefore, meant to submit to the House a proposition calculated to benefit the army, and throw a lustre on his Majesty's present Government, and he could not conceive any possible objection to its adoption. Without wishing to claim any merit to himself beyond that of having performed his duty, very imperfectly he was aware, but according to the best of his ability—and, willing as he was to give all the merit of the act to his Majesty's Ministers, to whom his gratitude would be due if they acceded to the proposition of so humble an individual as himself—and begging to express his thanks for the patient attention with which the House had indulged him for the past hour, he would proceed to read the terms of his Motion, to which he hoped his Majesty's Ministers would agree, in order that he might be saved the trouble of bringing before this House, from time to time, every case that occurred throughout the country; which step, however, if his proposition were rejected, he should certainly feel it his duty to take. There was one strong reason why this question should come before the House—namely, because there prevailed a practice of flogging in private. It was not necessary, that after the court-martial, the public should know in what manner its sentence was carried into effect; and the knowledge of the punishment being inflicted transpired only through the communication of some private soldier, which, in itself, was a disobedience of orders. This secret mode of punishment was a further ground of his appeal to his Majesty's Ministers to adopt the proposition with which he should conclude. He begged to move—"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty praying that he will be graciously pleased to take such measures as may cause the punishment of Flogging in the Army to be suspended till after the meeting of next Session of Parliament."

Mr. Hume

seconded the Motion, in order to show that his opinion on this subject had not altered since he seconded a similar motion on a former occasion; on the contrary, every clays experience afforded additional reasons why the proposition of the hon. member for Preston should be acceded to. The extracts which the hon. Member had read were from a letter addressed by Lieutenant Shipp to the hon. Baronet, the member for Westminster. He had seen Lieutenant Shipp, and the details which he had stated, were well worthy the attention of his Majesty's Ministers. They were not written from mere hearsay, but were the result of a long and checquered experience of a man of much talent and undoubted bravery. Lieutenant Shipp was not unknown; he led no less than five forlorn hopes in India, and had on all occasions, proved himself to be one of the most gallant soldiers in the East-India army. He was now in the receipt of a pension from the East-India Company, and Mr. Shipp's statement was he believed perfectly correct. No man could rise up from the perusal of its melancholy details without feeling that many brave soldiers had been destroyed by this flogging system. Mr. Shipp had admitted since, that when he left the army eight or nine years ago, the practice had improved. In some regiments the punishment was as severe as ever; whilst, in others, it had almost entirely disappeared. It appeared from this statement, and from the admission of many gallant officers, that after a man had once been subjected to such punishment, he never was worth anything. He considered himself degraded, and despair drove him to courses by which he invariably incurred a series of punishments, only put a stop to by death. He, therefore, thought, that the experiment ought to be made which was now proposed. On a former occasion, when a similar proposition was made, an objection was taken, that it was necessary to distinguish between the army abroad and the army at home; and he was, therefore, induced to propose a motion confining the experiment to England. The hon. member for Preston made no such distinction, because he had been upbraided with invidiously distinguishing between different portions of the army; and he had, therefore, included both in his present Motion. The experiment, however, might be made by an order being issued to the commanding officer, that an end be put to the punishment of flogging; because, however much the practice might now be mitigated, yet it could not be denied, that, so long as men had power, they were inclined to exercise, and too often abuse it. With regard to the petition of Mr. Somerville, which he had laid upon the Table that evening, he considered it would be unfair towards Major Wyndham, were he to enter into a discussion of the allegations it contained, unless indeed, his right hon. friend, the Secretary at War, had had an opportunity of communicating with Major Wyndham. If his right hon. friend had not, he should postpone the discussion till a future day. Somerville, it appeared, was sentenced to receive 200 lashes for an alleged disobedience of orders—that disobedience being a refusal to mount an unruly horse. He had tried to manage it but was unable; and being an inexperi- enced horseman, on being ordered to mount again, he declared, either, that he could, or would not; and for this he was sentenced to receive 200 lashes; 100 of which he had received; and, as the petitioner expected, was to receive the other 100. He (Mr. Hume) was aware that was a mistake, and he had stated as much to the person who brought him the petition. But what was the offence, if indeed it was an offence, of which Somerville had been guilty? Was it one which ought to be made the subject of a court-martial? To make it such was an additional proof, if any were wanting, that men, possessing power, were ever too prone to exercise it. It was, then, desirable that this power should be taken away: and if, in some portions of the army, the flogging system could be safely dispensed with, why might it not be, with equal safety, suspended throughout the whole of the army? He was not desirous of pressing his right hon. friend opposite on the subject, because he knew, that his right hon. friend might have obtained information, since he had been in office, to make him alter his former opinion; but he would submit, that it would be a great public benefit to make the trial; on that account he should second the Motion.

Sir John Hobhouse

had no reason to complain of the tone or manner in which the hon. member for Preston had brought forward this Motion; at the same time, he must state, that the details which the hon. Member had read were made up of facts connected with the previous, and not of such facts as could be connected with the present practice of the army; for as the hon. Member had truly stated a very great change had been made of late years in the army with regard to corporal punishment. There was a general feeling prevailing, not only in the country, but also in the service itself, that it would evidently be to the advantage of that service to get rid of the punishment of flogging, if possible, altogether. This pamphlet he had had the advantage of reading. It was addressed to his hon. colleague, who had taken so distinguished a part in that House in the effort to abolish, or at all events to mitigate, this species of punishment. He thought, when he first read this address, that certainly there were some things in it which did not quite apply to the present state of the case. If the public were to form a correct judgment upon this very important point, it surely should have relation to what was now going on, and not to what was formerly the practice. As to what had been said by the hon. Gentleman, of the option given to the soldier, either of receiving a limited punishment without a court-martial, or of standing the chance of a greater punishment being inflicted upon him by a court-martial, he could assure the hon. Member such a practice did not now prevail. Indeed, he did not believe that it ever had prevailed. Neither was it correct to say, that soldiers were secretly punished; the courts-martial at which they were tried were public proceedings, and the reports made of them might at any time be called for and produced in that House. As to the punishment taking place in secret, that was frequently the case with sentences pronounced by civil Courts, and had nothing to do with secresy of prosecution or of trial. The punishment might be secret as to the public, but it was not secret as to the regiment. With respect to the general question, however, it was not necessary that he should discuss it with the hon. Gentleman; because it was well known what his opinions were, and he had taken an opportunity of publicly declaring those opinions since he had taken office. And his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, was mistaken if he supposed that he (Sir John Hobhouse) had changed his opinions in any degree. Allusion had been made to the case of a soldier at Birmingham; but it was quite an error to suppose that soldiers were ever punished by instalments. With respect to the form of the motion, he had some doubt as to that; the King might, if he pleased, do what was proposed in this motion, but it would be exceedingly irregular, and without precedent; and after the articles of war had once passed this House, and been signed by his Majesty he did not conceive that the right way of producing an alteration in them was an Address to the Crown. The hon. Gentleman was mistaken if he supposed that nothing had been done on the part of the War-office to lessen the amount of the punishment. With the consent of the Judge Advocate-General and of the Commander-in-chief, he had succeeded in having the new articles of war so drawn up, that the greatest number of lashes that could be inflicted by a regimental court-martial was reduced from 300 to 200, and by a garrison court-mar- tial from 500 to 300. This showed, he hoped, the spirit by which he was actuated; and he, therefore, trusted, after the statement he had made, that the hon. Gentleman would not press his Motion.

Mr. Robinson

was ready to support the motion of the hon. member for Preston. Flogging was a most brutalizing and degrading punishment, and unless a better case could be made out for the necessity of continuing it than had been stated by the right hon. Baronet, he (Mr. Robinson) should be ready to support any measure short of abolition. The present Motion was not to abolish, it was only to suspend flogging. It was very moderate in its tone and temper. Public reprobation had marked the system, and in a time of profound peace, it was high time that it should be inquired into, and, if possible, got rid of.

Colonel Evans

supported the Motion. The severity of corporal punishments was one of the reasons which deterred persons from entering the army. In time of war, he, as a professional man, would not have recommended the suspension; but in time of peace he thought the experiment might be made.

Mr. Kemmis

suggested, that the power of inflicting lashes might be taken from regimental courts-martial, and the power of punishment by hard labour or solitary confinement substituted. He could not support the Motion, which he thought ill-timed, and more likely to be injurious than beneficial. The punishments in foreign armies were more severe than in our army. In France a man was shot, or imprisoned for ten years, for disobedience; in Prussia he was locked up in a cell; while in England he was flogged, or imprisoned for six months.

Mr. Robert Grant

doubted whether the Motion could be entertained, and whether the Crown had the option of varying the Articles of War. If any thing could be done, it must be by a motion for the purpose of suspending the operation of the Mutiny Act, because that Act gave the King a special power, as soon as may be, to make Articles of War, which were to be distributed throughout the empire, and to be recognized by all Judges, and to have the force of law. Therefore, it was a matter of serious doubt whether it was in the power of the King to vary these Articles from time to time. The pamphlet which had been so largely quoted, sufficiently established the fact, that something very different prevailed now in the army, with regard to corporal punishments, from that which was the practice formerly; and he was bold to say that, since the time that pamphlet referred to, there had grown up, on the part of the officers of the army, a disposition to mitigate the infliction of corporal punishments; which had, in a considerable degree, diminished both the application of that punishment and the necessity for awarding it. If he were to detail all the circumstances within his own knowledge, as to the means taken in order to dispense with corporal punishments, he could make a deep impression on the mind of the hon. Member, in favour of the feelings of justice, as well as those of humanity, by which the officers of the army were actuated. By issuing general orders, and the exercise of vigilant inspection over the proceedings of courts-martial, and by applying means of prevention rather than of punishment, a great progress had been made in effecting a diminution of the necessity for corporal punishment. He had paid a willing tribute to the temper in which this matter had been brought forward, because it was due to the hon. Member; but there could be no step more unpropitious for attaining the purpose sought, the practical advance in the mitigation of flogging, than to bring forward all those facts—of a most grievous description, certainly—which in former years occurred, without taking any notice of those changes of the system which had made a repetition of such facts impossible. There was scarcely one of the facts mentioned in the book which could, by possibility, take place under the present system. The hon. Member must excuse him for saying, that it was quite absurd to go over the cases which occurred many years ago, with a view to show the present practice. He would add, that the Commander-in-chief, and the high officers of the service, and the commanders of regiments, were all anxious to second the exertions of the Secretary-at-War. There were, however, difficulties in the way which might not in the first instance strike hon. Gentlemen. It must be recollected that the army was not a mere machine, and hastily to attempt great changes in it, was to run the risk of completely disorganizing it. In making important changes, it was necessary to proceed gradually, and not try experiments without the utmost caution and circumspection. The hon. and gallant Officer opposite said, that if it were not for the system of flogging at present pursued, the recruiting could be carried on with greater facility, and that you would induce a superior class of persons to enter the army. He could not speak from practical experience on this subject, but that was, in his opinion, by no means certain. The House and the country were jealous of a standing army, and the Government was called to the most severe account for the expense of the army; if, therefore, the pay was to remain as low as at present, the inducements to enter the service would not be greatly increased. He repeated, that it was necessary that the utmost caution should be used in making such a great change in the punishments of the army, and he thought, if they went hastily and unadvisedly to work, they would expose to great hazard the constitution of the army. It was safer and the hon. Member would be more certain of attaining the end he had in view, by withdrawing his Motion, and relying upon the stedfast exertions of his right hon. friend, the Secretary-at-War, and the Commander-in-chief, and the commandants of regiments, all of whom were anxious to diminish, and, if possible, ultimately to abolish, this species of punishment in our army.

Colonel Davies

remarked, that the present system of discipline in the army was entirely different from that described in the pamphlet. The last instance mentioned there was in 1808. He was disposed to concur in the suggestion of the hon. Member (Mr. Kemmis), to take away from minor courts-martial the power of inflicting corporal punishments, which might be safely intrusted to garrison courts, and he hoped that in the next Mutiny Bill a provision would be introduced to that effect. He said it with great regret, but he was apprehensive that the discipline of the army could not be maintained if corporal punishment were wholly abolished.

Mr. Calcraft

said, that during the short time he had been in the army, he had observed that corps in which corporal punishment prevailed were generally inferior, and that a flogged man was a lost man.

Sir John Bourke

thought, that at a time when the dispositions of the Commander-in-chief, and of the officers generally commanding regiments, were hostile to the system of flogging as a general punishment, and when it was known that an officer commanding a regiment received credit at head-quarters in pro- portion to the extent in which flogging was diminished in that regiment, he hoped the House would feel that the present Motion ought not to be pressed.

Mr. Hunt

, in reply, said, that he must insist on the expediency of presenting the Address, were it only to show the disposition of the House on the subject. Whatever might be said of the humane disposition of officers, it was evident that the system was different in different regiments. In some regiments the officers never used flogging, in others they did, and he would have them all compelled to do, as some of them did, without using it. He would have one law for all. He believed that his object could be easily accomplished by proper instructions issued by the War Office, and he felt, therefore, bound to press his Motion to a division.

The House divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 33—Majority 18.

List of the AYES.
Bulwer, Henry, L. Thicknesse, R.
Calcraft, Capt. Granby Vincent, Sir F.
Curteis, Herbert Warburton, Henry
Evans, Col. de Lacy Wood, Alderman
Ewart, Wm. Wood, John
Grattan, Henry Walker, C. A.
Paget, Thomas TELLERS.
Robinson, G. R. Hume, Joseph
Tennyson, Rt. Hon. C. Hunt, Henry