Colonel Evansrose for the purpose of moving Resolutions relative to the expense of the Military Establishments of this country. The present Government had now been in office nearly two years, but the reduction which it was evident might be made in our military establishments had not yet been effected, in consequence of the attention of the Parliament having been absorbed by one most important question. That question was now, however, happily decided, and he trusted they should be able to turn their attention to the subject of reduction of our expenditure. He was happy to be able to offer his humble tribute of applause to the right hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty, for the reductions he had effected in the navy. Similar reductions might be made in the army, but the reason perhaps, for which they were not made, was, that the frequent changes in the administration of the War Office rendered it almost impossible for each Secretary to have had time or opportunity to pay attention to the subject; and another reason was, that the army was not as much under the control of the Secretary at War, as the navy was under that of the First Lord of the Admiralty. The first of the Resolutions which he meant to propose might be regarded as a truism. It was this: "That the strength and security of the empire, and the prospect of internal tranquillity and good order, being now augmented in an unexampled degree by the law which provides for an efficient Representation of the people in Parliament, it is expedient, in the opinion of this House, that the smallest practicable delay should take place in relieving the country from all unnecessary burthens; and especially by carrying into effect every possible reduction in the heaviest branch of the national expenditure—that of the army." If the external and internal security of the empire had increased since the passing of the Reform Bill, there was an additional reason for the reductions, as they could be made with much greater 779 safety than before. The second Resolution he should propose was of a more extensive character, and stated the items in which considerable reductions could be made without detriment to the service. This Resolution, which detailed the mode by which this diminution might be effected, was divided into twelve different heads, and he would trouble the House with a few observations on each. The Resolution was as follows: "That it appears to this House that great reductions may be effected in the following military establishments, without detriment to the efficiency of the public service, and that some of them may be altogether abolished; namely, Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, Military Asylum, and Hibernian Military School, the Waggon Train, the Irish and English Yeomanry, the disembodied Militia of Great Britain and Ireland, Regimental Dépôt Reserves, District Recruiting Establishments, System of manufacturing Stores for the Ordnance, in respect to construction of Colonial Canals and Fortifications, in respect to charge for Military Protection of Ceylon and Mauritius, Foreign Half-pay Lists, Household Troops of Cavalry and Foot Guards, and by diminishing the number of Officers on the Establishment of Regiments." The first establishment he would advert to was Chelsea Hospital. So long as twenty years ago, a Board of Military Commissioners censured the appointment to offices in hospitals of men who had neither gained a title to those appointments by their sufferings nor their services. Some of these appointments were valuable, and there were among those appointed to such offices, valets, grooms, and others, whose only recommendation appeared to be the favour of their masters. The matter which was so long since the object of the censure of these Military Commissioners had not yet been corrected, and the system now continued as much as ever the subject of abuse. Some of these appointments were valuable, and many of them were of such a nature that they could be as well filled by the persons entitled to become inmates of the hospital, as those who hold the offices. Among them were agents, comptrollers, stewards, butlers, master cooks, ushers, bakers, butchers, and wardrobe keepers; all of whom had previously been valets, grooms, gamekeepers, coachmen, militia officers, editors of newspapers, and political adherents of certain noble Lords or right hon. Gentlemen. Not one 780 of these appointments should be given to a man who had not seen military service; but among them were persons whose only recommendation had been, having been servants of persons connected with the Pay-office. He believed that the salaries of these persons amounted to nearly 3,000l. a-year. In addition, however, to these salaries, it must be recollected, that all those persons had apartments in the hospital. One person connected in this way with the hospital held a place with a salary of 278l. a-year; with a retiring salary from another office of 500l, The alteration which he trusted would now take place might save the public some money, but at all events it would have the effect of providing for worthy objects, instead of enriching those who had no claim to the public bounty. The next item of expenditure to which he wished to direct the attention of the House was that of the Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals. At these hospitals 787 pensioners were maintained at an expense of 35,000l. a-year, or 3s. 6d. a-day—a sum equal to three times the amount they received when on active service and in full efficiency. He was sure, that a great part of this expense might be saved if the men were allowed to live in their own villages, and in that case he believed that many of them would be content with a third of what they now received. By that course, too, the expense of forty or fifty clerks, whose charges amounted to between 5,000l. and 6,000l. a-year, might also be saved. In addition to these, which might be called the ordinary expenses of the establishments, he found the average number of sixty or seventy of these pensioners was to be found annually on the sick list, at an additional expense of 2,447l. a-year. A third item of expense connected with these places, was the salaries of the Governors. One of these gentlemen, he knew, was most fully entitled to all that he received from the country. He would take it for granted that the other was equally well-entitled; still he must say, that the reduction ought to take place with regard to him, for he held four or five other offices. The saving that might thus be effected would amount to about 10,000l. a-year. The next item was the establishment called the Military Asylum and Hibernian Military School, His objection to those establishments was chiefly on account of the expensiveness of the staff. Considering these as recruit- 781 ing establishments, it would be found, that each recruit obtained from them cost the country 300l. by the first, and, by the latter, 530l. He was aware that they ought chiefly to be considered as charitable institutions, but the object to be obtained by them might be gained with infinitely less cost. From the very large staff at these places, it would appear that they were more like a job than anything else. He believed, that the object of that establishment might be just as well obtained by making an allowance to each of the corps of the army for the same number of children, and that thus the expense of the staff might be spared, and a sum of 13,000l. a-year saved, besides a building and grounds of the value of 150,000l. The next item was the Waggon Train, which, in his opinion, was a complete excrescence that might be fairly and advantageously got rid of. The Waggon Train, he believed, had been found of very little advantage during the war; since the peace, it had been of none whatever, though it had cost the country upwards of 200,000l. It was useless to refer to the example of France on this subject, for France might be called on to arm at a moment, and a powerful means of transport was of course required in that country. But with us it was different. Our ships were our means of transport, and, he believed, that for most of the purposes for which a four-horse waggon train was required, some of the carts recently invented by Mr. Cherry, attached to each corps, would be found sufficient. This cart had been approved of by military and naval officers, as well as scientific men. The Commander-in-chief lately presented such a cart to the county of Salop Infirmary, as they are particularly well adapted for the removal of sick persons. If this cart were adopted, no establishment would be necessary, and 5,000l. a-year would be saved, besides the expense of the Croydon barracks. He knew that the opinion of the right, hon. Gentleman below him was in favour of keeping up this branch of the service, but it appeared to him, that no case could be made out to justify it. The next item was the Irish Yeomanry, whose existence he considered more hostile, than favourable, to the continuance of peace in that country. He should recommend their total abolition. If that recommendation were adopted, a saving of 15,000l. a-year might be made to the country. Then 782 came the English Yeomanry; with respect to them, he should recommend that no further allowance should be made to them by the Government than was made to the National Guards of France by their Government. There were 1,200,000 of those National Guards, who received no other emoluments than their arms and accoutrements. Surely the English Yeomanry were not inferior to them in patriotism. If this were done, there would be a saving of 65,000l. a-year. The Militia Staff was the next item of account, and that item he thought might be reduced at least one-half. A saving of 19,200l. a-year might be effected on the Militia, and a saving of 7,600l. on the Militia Staff, making together nearly 27,000l. a-year. Then there came the Reserves. There were fifty-one Reserves, at 2,000l. a-year for each. A considerable number of these might be reduced, and a great saving thus effected. The next item was the Recruiting Establishments. He should propose to abolish all these, except those of London and Dublin. These might remain as central establishments, and the recruiting might be carried on in the same manner as before the other establishments were formed. The central establishments should have the care, and the general superintendence of the recruiting department. The difficulty in doing what he now proposed was, as to the primary examination of the recruits. He thought, however, that that difficulty might be easily obviated, and a saving thus effected of 18,000l. a-year. The next item was the manufacture of stores, the making of canals and fortifications in the colonies and elsewhere, abroad. The Finance Committee had, more than once, reported against this head of expenditure, but he found that its opinions had been but little regarded. In the course of the last war no less than 15,000,000l. had been laid out in fortifications alone, and before most of these not an enemy had ever appeared. Canada, too, had had a large expense incurred for canals and fortifications. Between Canada and the United States there was a very weak line of defence. A sum of 2,000,000l. had been laid out on these fortifications, but there was yet a line of frontier of above 500 miles in length left utterly unprovided for. The fact was, that the only defence we could rely on in Canada was to be found in the attachment of its people. Its line of fortifications was the weakest in the world, and would not afford us the 783 slightest defence. A sum of 45,000l. had lately been voted on this account for Canada. He understood that only about 6,000l. of that money had been expended, and the works were now suspended. If his recommendation had any effect, they would be altogether dropped, and the whole of the rest of the money would be saved. The saving, however, would be still greater; for it had already been intimated that a sum of 180,000l. would be wanted to complete the works now begun. Every farthing of that expenditure might be saved, and our security would be improved, if we looked to the affection and loyalty of the Canadians alone for our de-fence in that part of the world. The governments of Ceylon and the Mauritius might also be rendered less expensive, and the commerce of each would be materially benefited, if both were put under one government. The next item was the Foreign Half-pay, He knew that this was at present granted in virtue of an Act of Parliament; but he thought that that Act ought, at least with respect to a very considerable number of persons, to be repealed; for they were at this moment paid by the different governments of the different countries to which they belonged, as effective functionaries. It should be recollected, too, that, with a great number of them, the services for which they now received this half-pay were services rendered as much to their native countries as to England, although, at the time, the armies of those countries were paid by England. By their services, their own monarchs had been assisted in getting back to their thrones; and it was for those monarchs to recognise, and pay for, those services. If this item were reduced, there would be a saving of 100,000l. a-year. The next item was the Regiments of Guards. In this he included both Horse and Foot Guards. They cost 60,000l. a-year more than a similar number of the troops of the line; and he thought he was hardly proposing too much when he recommended that 10,000l. a-year of that excess should be saved. He believed, indeed, that Parliament might justly go much further than this, and say that, with respect to pay at least, they should be put on the same footing as the rest of the troops. If they received additional rank, which they now enjoyed, and were still exempted, as at pre-sent, from duty in the colonies, and were generally, as at present, kept in or near the 784 metropolis, these advantages, together with the honour of being considered privileged troops, would surely be sufficient, without this great increase of expenditure. He might add his opinion, that in no way whatever, were these troops on the same footing with the rest, and that the right hon. Baronet had less control over them than over the rest of the army. He thought this should be remedied. The last subject to which he should refer was the reduction of the number of the officers of the army. In his opinion, the army was now unnecessarily crowded with officers, by which the expense of the army was very much increased. He had considered the subject, and he believed, that one Major would be enough for a battalion, in which, too, might be reduced one Captain and four subaltern officers. The present large number of superior officers was much connected, he was certain, with another subject that had lately occupied a good deal of attention—he meant that of corporal punishment. It was in consequence of that degrading species of punishment that they could not get respectable young men to enter as recruits; and that again prevented them from raising subaltern officers from the ranks, and afterwards promoting subalterns to be superior officers. Napoleon had remarked this among the four faults in our military system, and had assigned it a chief place in the list of those faults. He trusted, that Parliament would do what it could to remedy that fault, and then the alteration he had proposed could be more effectually carried into execution. In his opinion there might then be eight companies instead of ten to a battalion, and by the reduction of these, and of the seven officers he had already mentioned, a very large item would be saved in the public expenditure. The third Resolution which he intended to propose was, "That it appears to this House expedient that the forces at Malta, New South Wales, and Nova Scotia, and Bermuda, should be reduced to the same effective strength at which they were on the 25th of January, 1825." It appeared to him that it was quite unnecessary to keep up large garrisons in those colonies; and, at any rate, there could not be any reasons for keeping a larger force in them than there was previous to 1825, If this plan were adopted, 2,928 men might be reduced, which would relieve the country to the extent of 100,000l. a-year. Again; suppose one 785 English battalion were substituted for the two West-India regiments, which would be far more effective, and would occasion a reduction of between 20,000l. and 30,000l. The West-India regiments were quartered at Barbadoes, the Bahamas, and Bermuda, and they performed, in point of fact, the duty of police. In his opinion, the police duties connected with the system of slavery ought to be executed by a militia of planters, and not by the soldiers of the regular service. Even in time of war it would not be necessary to keep up large garrisons in our colonies, for the chief defence of these islands and their best guards, were ships of war. In the case of Malta, in particular, it was nothing more or less than a shameful waste of money, to keep up such a large garrison there. The place was of such great strength, that a comparatively small force might easily defend it against a large army. When Napoleon took this island in his way to Egypt, it was garrisoned by a small Maltese battalion, and yet that distinguished general did not venture to attack it, although he had with him a large fleet, and an army of 20,000 men. He obtained possession of it by negotiation, and his chief engineer, Cafferelli, remarked, "It was well that we found some one within, to open the gates for us." The fourth Resolution was this—" That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that the forces at home be reduced to the same effective strength at which they were on the twenty-fifth of January, 1831." He was at a loss to conceive on what grounds his Majesty's Ministers could keep up a larger force than there was when they came into office. He trusted, that the Government would see the propriety of reducing the forces, by at least 9,000 men. The effective forces at home, in January, 1831, were 36,140, rank and file; in January, 1832,45,160; making a difference of 9,020 men. At present, the forces at home amounted to nearly 200,000 men; for instance, the regular array, including officers and non-commissioned officers, rank and file, were 51,571; artillery,4,589; marines on shore, 4,324; militia staff, 2,697; military police of Ireland, 7,367; coast-guard, 2,000; making 72,548. Again, the disembodied militia of Great Britain was 53,000; and, of Ireland, 19,000; volunteers of Great Britain, 20,399; yeomanry of Ireland, 31,422; making a total of 196,369. That was an available armed 786 force of nearly 200,000 men, and, of which, 120,000 were actually embodied. Of these, he proposed to reduce only 9,000 regulars, and 31,000 Irish yeomanry, or to the state in which the army was in 1831. When the present Government came into office, the army in Ireland amounted to only 16,000 men; in the beginning of this year, it was increased to 20,000; and it was intended, he understood, to send thither a large additional force. This was most impolitic, as it was clear that an array would not tranquillize the people. If the army had remained on the same footing on which it was when the present Ministers came into office, the country would have saved nearly 400,000l. Besides these resolutions, he intended to move for some returns. He wished, in the first place, to have a return of the number of officers of each rank, belonging to the effective strength of the army, who were Members of the Commons House of Parliament; for the great number of regimental officers in the House on full pay was an additional proof that there were more officers in the army than were required. It was his intention to propose, next Session, that all officers, Members of the House, should be placed on half-pay. He also wished to have a return of the officers in command of all regiments abroad and at home, distinguishing the dates of their separate commissions, the periods of their foreign service; specifying colonial, or in the field, whether wounded, receiving any pension, or possessing any public testimonials of good conduct, in action or in the field; also specifying the ranks to which promoted by purchase. Undoubtedly there was a great number of regiments commanded by officers who had seen a great deal of service; but there were many regiments commanded by officers who had never been in active service. He was prepared to admit, that many of the latter were most efficient officers, and, if an opportunity were offered, they would, no doubt, distinguish themselves; but, certainly, a preference should always be given to those officers who had seen service. He had no desire to throw the slightest blame upon the officers, at the bead of the army. If he were to select two officers for the situations of Commander-in-chief and Adjutant Secretary, he could not select two more worthy than Lord Hill and Lord Fitzroy Somerset. He had no doubt, officered as the army at present was, that 787 it might be in a high state of discipline, but it was enormously expensive, and it was the duty of the House to see whether or not these expenses could be reduced. Whatever, too, might be the effect of the plan, at present, the result of conferring promotion for any thing but merit and service, would be to damp exertion and turn the attention of officers to the indirect means of promotion. Their energies would be engaged to obtain influence not to learn their military duties, and we should be reduced to the same state as Sir Robert Walpole found the army in his time. This Minister, having been pressed to declare war, called for an army list; and having looked over the names of the general officers, remarked that he did not know what effect those gentlemen might have on the enemy; but they entirely frightened him. It was true, that many of the continental states kept up armies beyond their pecuniary means; but the way in which they accomplished that was, by observing the strictest economy in details. In considering this Motion, he had turned over in his mind such arguments as might be adduced against it. As to a foreign war, he thought that there was not the least ground for apprehending any such thing; and if one should arise, contrary to all human probability, it would most likely be a maritime war, in which our army could be of no service. If it was to preserve peace at home that it was supposed to be necessary to keep on foot the present large force, then Ireland alone must be the cause of the Government's incurring so great an expense. He hoped that would not prove to be the case; and he trusted that the House and the Administration were, before this, convinced that it was impossible to govern Ireland by the cannon and the bayonet. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving the series of Resolutions which he had read to the House.
Sir John Hobhouseobserved upon the thinness of the House (about fifteen Members were present), and was of opinion that the dog-days hardly formed a fit season for going through the Army Estimates; but the gallant Colonel had not only gone through them with resolution, but he had embraced the Ordnance Estimates, the Colonial Department, and topics, upon even one-fifth part of which he despaired of being able to enter in the course of one night's debate. He could not imagine 788 that the saving to be effected would be so great as had been represented by the hon. and gallant Officer. In reference to the system of recruiting, he must observe, that it had formerly been considered as good; such, also, was the case with regard to the system of dépôt reserves. Touching the Ordnance Stores, &c., he must in fairness say, that that involved so many topics, and was a subject of such vast extent, that it could only be taken into consideration in the shape of a night's debate. The hon. and gallant Officer, too, had spoken with reference to our military establishments at Ceylon and the Mauritius, and had asked, why the East-India Company did not pay the expenses. But, even supposing that the East-India Company were to pay for those establishments in Ceylon, for instance, did his hon. and gallant friend suppose that they, in return, would not make the merchants and traders repay them in some shape or other? Then, as to the half-pay allowed to persons in foreign service, he was not aware that, except in Hanover, any person received half-pay while performing military duty elsewhere. At the same time he believed, that some improvement might be made under this head. All that could be done at the War Office was then doing at the War Office to promote the commutation of half-pay. With regard to the expense of the household troops, as compared with those of the line, his hon. friend appeared to have fallen into some error, for the difference of expense between them was very trifling. An objection had been raised as to the force kept up in some of our colonies. True it was, as had been stated, that at Malta there were now more troops than formerly, but at the Cape of Good Hope the number had been materially diminished. So in Bermuda and other colonies the case was the same. This, however, was a matter for the Government to settle, and so was that of the reduction of the staff; though in the latter case, he must observe that if the increase was justified in 1831, no circumstances had occurred to warrant an alteration in the system. Again, it had been urged, that our military force in Ireland was too large. Now, he must declare that he was at a loss to discover what was the difference of the situation of Ireland from that in which it was placed in the year 1831 which could possibly justify the Government in diminishing our military establishment there, He would 789 not object to the first and third Resolutions, but looking to that which called for the date of the commissions granted to officers, whether they had received any public testimonial of good conduct, &c., stating the ranks to which they purchased, and the length of their service, he saw great difficulty in acceding to it; for in 1826, a similar return had been moved for, and the answer they obtained was, that it was impossible to get at the length of service. Then, as regarded the officers of the army, and the complaint made by the hon. and gallant Member, he begged to state that he had been informed that, were we to go to war to-morrow, a better disciplined, or a better officered, army never could be brought into the field; such was their present condition. True it was, that in some instances officers of distinguished merit did not receive that promotion to which they were entitled, because, in the great struggle for promotion, some must go behind. But, upon the whole, he believed the system worked as fairly and as well as any could which should secure first-rate talent. On the other hand, many cases did occur in which officers of merit, without any great interest, rose in the army to the highest ranks; and, as an instance of this, he would quote the hon. and gallant Member himself, whose merits and services were known and justly appreciated. He held in his hand the date of that hon. Member's commissions, by which it appeared that he had risen from the rank of Lieutenant to Lieutenant-Colonel in the space of five months, in the midst of great services; and he had been in the army eight years and three months. The right hon. Baronet concluded by saying that, looking to all the circumstances of the case, he thought it best to move the previous question; but, in doing so, he must protest against its being considered that his Majesty's Government were not disposed to effect every possible reduction.
Mr. Humecould not agree with his gallant friend, in the praises which he had bestowed on Lord Hill and Lord Fitzroy Somerset; and he begged to ask his gallant friend, how the sounding the merits of these noble Lords agreed with what he had himself stated as to no old officer having been appointed to command any of the corps? In his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, that fact alone cast a most severe censure on the Commander-in-chief. Indeed, looking at the subject in a general point 790 of view, he considered that the manner in which military patronage was exercised was highly detrimental to the service. It might be a mode very agreeable to those who were enabled by it to obtain rapid promotion, owing to their political connexions; but this undeniably was a narrow advantage, purchased at the expense of all the other officers who were not so fortunate in their influence. One of the points which his gallant friend had failed to notice, was the exceedingly heavy Staffs kept up at head-quarters—a thing utterly useless in itself, and one which formed one of the most extravagant items in the whole expenditure of the army. But the great complaint, in his opinion, was, that they had too long been acting upon the old military system. What he wanted to see was, the whole military expenditure of the country put under the control of the Se-cretary-at-War, and the Commander-in-chief only acting as the executive authority for carrying the details into effect. Unfortunately, however, the Commander-in-chief had engrossed all the power; and he believed that the Secretary-at-War was not able to do a single thing without consulting him. This he took for granted, from the whole tenour of his right hon. friend's speech, which seemed to imply that Lord Hill was his master, and that he only came down to the House of Commons to state what that noble Lord was willing to comply with. By a document which was yesterday laid on the Table of the House, it appeared that the expenditure of the country amounted to upwards of 1,200,000l. above the income, so that now, in the eighteenth year of peace, like other spendthrifts, we were exceeding our receipts by that enormous amount. The annual expense of the Army was 7,500,000l.; the annual expense of the Ordnance was 1,500,000l.; which, together, made a total of 9,000,000l. in outlay for the support of our standing army. He wished that his gallant friend had pointed this out, for then he would have been the better entitled to ask, whether it was consistent that such an expenditure should be allowed to continue? If the Ministers had only just entered office, there might be some apology for no diminution having taken place; but this was now their second year of office, and instead of a diminution, there had been somewhat of an increase in the expenses of the military establishment of the coun- 791 try. With respect to Chelsea Hospital, he thought that a great saving might be effected in that establishment. With regard to the Military Asylum and the Hibernian School, he had no hesitation in saying, that both these institutions ought to be put down. It might be thought harsh not to receive soldiers children, and perhaps it might be so; but, at all events, if they were to be received, it ought to be in a very different manner. The proper persons to take care of children were nurses and schoolmasters, and not General Officers and a complete Staff, as it were, as if these children formed an array of themselves; in addition to which, he thought that something less than a palace was sufficient for the residence of these children, though he really believed that the King himself had not such a splendid dwelling as that which they occupied. This subject had been very fully discussed in a previous Session, and if his advice had been taken, instead of keeping up distinct establishments at Southampton, Chelsea, and Dublin, he would have them all consolidated at one place, and so get rid of the triple corps of officers, who were altogether useless, and had nothing to do with the charity, which was the real object of these establishments. With respect to his gallant friend's proposition concerning these children, he trusted that it would not be adopted. His gallant friend's plan seemed to be, that a sum of money should be allowed to the regiments and the children kept with those regiments; but in the event of their having to take the field, he imagined that it would be found that these children would prove a very great encumbrance, and, in fact, form a complete clog to the motions of the men. There were other parts of the Motion of his gallant friend which he deemed well worthy of attention; and with respect to the question of Ireland, which had been touched upon, he would just observe, that the real way of governing Ireland was not by sending an army of 35,000 men into that country to overrun it, but by giving the people just and equitable laws, by means of which the Government would find itself enabled in a very short time to reduce the army there to 8,000, which was the number at the commencement of the French war, or even still lower. It was in vain for the Government to talk of the expense of maintaining a force for the service of Ireland of the 792 great amount now stationed in that country. Let Ireland be equitably ruled, and the necessity for keeping a large military force there would disappear. He fully concurred with his hon. friend in thinking that the present mode in which the army was managed must have the effect of deteriorating its moral character. There was no man of good moral character who would not hesitate a long time before he engaged in a service in which by possibility it might be his lot to be subjected to corporal punishment. For all these reasons the Motion of his hon. and gallant friend should have his most cordial support; for he thought, that with a deficient revenue, and so large a military establishment, the House was called upon to offer an opinion upon the propriety of effecting a considerable reduction.
§ Lord Althorpwas sure that the hon. and gallant Member who introduced this subject, as well as his hon. friend who last addressed the House, had no expectation that any of the reductions they proposed could be carried into effect in the present Session. He must say, that his right hon. friend (Sir John Hobhouse) was not well treated by his hon. friend who last addressed the House. His hon. friend had gone into a variety of details, in some of which he might be right, and in some wrong, but because his right hon. friend near him was not prepared at that moment to enter into those details or to adopt them, his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, held him up as being opposed to all economical Reform. This surely was not acting fairly. His hon. friend, and the hon. and gallant Officer, talked of the army in England being 65,000 men. He did not know where they obtained that amount, but the Returns before the House did not make them more than 26,000, and even taking the Marines and the Militia, which were not all embodied, they would not amount to the number the two hon. Members had stated. Every one who considered the circumstances of the country would admit the necessity of a large military force being kept up in the United Kingdom. Whatever was the cause of the discontent in Ireland, into which he would not enter, the necessity of maintaining a large military establishment in that country must be admitted. Objections had been made some time ago to the employment of the Yeomanry in that country instead of the regular troops. He was dis- 793 posed to concur in those objections, but now, when the number of the regular force was increased, a complaint was made of the increase. He would agree with his hon. friend, that the best way would be, if possible, to remove the cause of discontent in Ireland; but while it was in its present state, the presence of a large military force was the only way to protect the public, and to guard against violence. He meant not to follow the gallant Officer through all his details, which, in his opinion, had been satisfactorily answered by his right hon. friend. It would be useless to proceed with a discussion on these various topics, unless the House had the necessary information before it. He conceived that it was not quite fair to Ministers when the gallant Officer came forward with a series of subjects, involving different matters of charge, to which it was impossible fully to reply, unless a variety of details were entered into, for which the House was not prepared. In fact, the Motion, as it had been brought forward, involved questions that related to every department of the Government, It was said, that individuals connected with different branches of the Government ought to have been present to answer the charges which had been made. But, from the very general terms of the Motion, such was its vagueness and want of precision, that it did appear to him that no blame could fairly be attached to his colleagues, if they were led to believe, as they had been, that they would not be called on for their defence. The gallant Officer had particularly alluded to the subject of unattached commissions; but, with respect to them, his right hon. friend had followed the course pursued by the right hon. member for the Queen's County, and other hon. Gentlemen who had preceded him in office. With respect to the amount of forces in England, he did not think that any Gentleman, looking to the present state of the country, could wish to see that amount greatly reduced. He hoped and trusted, however, that hereafter Ministers would be enabled to reduce the numbers of the army. He was satisfied that they would speedily arrive at a state of harmony and content, when they might with perfect safety reduce their military force; but he did not think that it would be prudent at that moment to reduce the existing means of security. He cordially agreed in the proposition that it was the duty of Government to reduce the ex- 794 penditure in every department; and the present Ministers were determined to do so to the utmost of their power. The circumstances in which they were placed when they first came into office, rendered it necessary for them to add something to the military force. They could not possibly avoid it. The hon. member for Middlesex had said, why not trust to the people of England, instead of keeping up a great military establishment? Did the hon. Member recollect the situation in which the country was placed when the Ministers came into office? At that time the burning of barns, and the destruction of property, were general throughout the country. As to the subject of Canada, he would not then enter into it. He very well knew, that if the people of Canada wished to shake off their connexion with this country, it could not be prevented. But, if the inhabitants of Canada were anxious to continue the connexion, then it was only right that we should give them the means of defending themselves. He believed that much unnecessary expense had been incurred with respect to Canada, but he conceived that it would be bad policy now not to complete that which had been so far carried towards completion. In laying before the House to-morrow the Estimates for the current year, he thought he should be able to show, that the finances of the country were not in so bad a state as many gentlemen seemed to suppose. Ministers were most anxious to effect a reduction of expenditure; and he could assure the House that many of the establishments which had been that night introduced, had already been looked into by them. Although they found it necessary to move the previous question on this occasion, still he could safely assert, that they were anxiously investigating every point connected with the expenditure of the country, and that expenditure they were determined to reduce so far as it could be done with advantage to the general interest of the empire.
§ Sir George Murraysaid, when he saw the notice of Motion given by the hon. and gallant officer, his curiosity was a little excited, and he attended in his place, expecting to hear some useful information communicated, or some valuable details brought forward, from which a practical conclusion might be drawn. But since he had the honour of a seat in that House, he never was present at any discussion 795 less likely to lead to a useful result. The hon. and gallant officer had embraced in his Motion such a vast variety of topics, each in itself highly important, that it was impossible any practical benefit could result from it. There was no department of Government which the range of his Motion did not take in, so that the presence of almost every member of the Cabinet would be necessary to discuss it properly. Not content with this, the member for Middlesex introduced, besides, the Church of Ireland. With respect to the total amount of force, he should not enter into that question. It was a point for the consideration of Government only, for they alone could have the means of judging, from internal and external circumstances, what was the amount of force necessary. He agreed it was unfortunate to be under the necessity of keeping up a large military establishment, as the gallant officer and the member for Middlesex said, to coerce the people. He would be as ready as any person to reduce the army when he saw that it could be done with safety to the country. The hon. and gallant Officer alluded to the National Guards of France, who, he said, received nothing from Government but their accoutrements, and asked why the Yeomanry of England should not, when required, serve their country upon the same terms. Was the gallant Officer aware what the charge of accoutrements for 1,200,000 National Guards was? He would find that it far, very far exceeded the Yeomanry charge here; and, besides the National Guards, it should be recollected that France had a regular force of between 400,000 and 500,000 men. The opinion expressed by Napoleon of the British army was referred to. He should not have been surprised to have heard this from the member for Middlesex, but he must confess that he felt some surprise at hearing it from a British officer, who he must suppose was acquainted with the subject. The first objection made by Napoleon to the constitution of the British army was, that it was recruited by money. Would the gallant officer introduce into this country the principle of conscription by which the French ranks were filled, a principle which produced civil war in every department of France, and filled the forests of that country with persons who took refuge there to avoid being forced to serve in the army? The second objection of 796 Napoleon was, that we filled our ranks by emptying the gaols of the country. Now, in the first place, this was not the fact, and, even admitting that it was so, a British officer ought to be disposed rather to veil than to publish it. But it was not the truth, because the British army was recruited from the Militia, who made most excellent soldiers, and were men of good character. Napoleon's third observation was, that we had no good noncommissioned officers. There were not in the world better or more efficient noncommissioned officers than those of the British army, and of this the hon. and gallant Officer must be convinced from his own experience. The member for Middlesex and the gallant Officer complained that there was not sufficient encouragement in the way of promotion from the ranks. He must deny that, in time of war, there was any ground for complaint upon this head. In his regiment, at the beginning of the war, not less than forty persons from the ranks obtained commissions in the space of four or five years. These were things which of course could not occur every day, nor frequently, in time of peace, but when war broke out, they were by no means uncommon. The fact was. Napoleon had not any practical knowledge of a British army until a recent period, and till then he had been in the habit of publishing to Europe his abuse and contemptuous opinion of it. He had met in the field all the other armies of Europe, but he knew nothing of a British army till he met it at Waterloo, and then he learned what was the valour and discipline of British troops, and what the talents of a British general. It was objected that our array had too many officers. It should be recollected that there was no army so much broken up into small detachments as the array of this country. Circumstances required that small detachments should be sent on a variety of service. It was necessary that these detachments should have each an officer; otherwise it was not to be expected that the duty, which was frequently of great importance, could be performed in a satisfactory way, and the necessary discipline maintained. He was glad to hear so just and well merited a tribute of praise bestowed by the hon. and gallant officer upon the present Commander-in-chief. No man was better entitled to it than Lord Hill, whether from his services or his private 797 character. It was impossible that any man could discharge the important duties intrusted to him with more diligence or more impartiality. He was sorry the member for Hertford was not present, for he could inform the House how the affairs of the army were managed when Lord Amherst was Commander-in-chief, and what jobs were then going forward. Before the commencement of the late war it was quite impossible the British army could be an effective one. There was then no Commander-in-chief, and the consequence was, that, when sent upon service, at the opening of the war, it was in a most inefficient state. Each company consisted of only thirty-five men, and there were no artillery drivers. The gallant Officer was for doing away with the corps of artillery drivers during peace, for, said he, in time of war there would be no difficulty in procuring drivers. It was true they might get drivers, but, unless they were regularly trained and previously disciplined, the first thing they would do on going into action would be, to run away and take the horses with them. If it should become necessary in Ireland to call a force into the field, it would be found very inconvenient to be without a waggon train. In reference to Chelsea and Kilmainham, the gallant Officer said these establishments might be dispensed with, and a considerable saving effected; that the pensioners would prefer being at liberty and living with their friends, at an allowance of a shilling a day, not a third of what these establishments cost the public. It was true some might prefer living with their friends, but it should be recollected there were many who had no friends, who returned home maimed or disabled after long service in a foreign climate, forgotten by friends, or who perhaps had none living. It would be unbecoming the dignity and humanity of this great country to have no establishment in which persons thus situated could find shelter. The hon. and gallant Officer recommended that the Kilmainham establishment might be merged in that of Chelsea. It should be recollected, however, that a large proportion of their army was Irish, who would naturally wish to retire to their native country, and find an asylum where they would have an opportunity of seeing their friends and relations. The Hibernian Military School, which it was proposed to suppress, originated in private benevolence. It was at first supported by 798 private subscription, contributed by persons who saw and pitied the destitute situation in which the children of soldiers were sometimes left when a regiment was called upon foreign service. It was of course desirable to have as few children as possible with an army, but there must be some, and when the father was killed in battle, or died in the service, surely it would be most unjust and inhuman to leave the orphans without any protection whatever. He therefore contended that the Asylum ought to be maintained. Then the hon. member for Middlesex had charged the Secretary at War, with being a mere servant to the Commander-in-chief. That was a most unjust charge. He was satisfied that the office of Secretary at War was so constituted that it gave the person holding it an efficient and real control over the expenditure of the army. The present Secretary for Foreign Affairs had been Secretary at War for twenty years, and he was sorry that noble Lord was not in his place to answer the charge of the hon. Member. As to our foreign garrisons, the necessity of maintaining them was too apparent to need any advocacy from him, and he could not at all agree with the gallant officer (Colonel Evans) in thinking that even a strong position like Malta required no garrison. He even considered the instance quoted as a most unfortunate one. A fort was given up to the enemy because it was not garrisoned, said the hon. and gallant Member; then surely that was a reason why the forts should be garrisoned. He had troubled the House in consequence of the remarks made respecting the British army, and he had to apologize for the intrusion. A great reduction in the army had been called for in consequence of the passing of the Reform Bill. He should be glad to find that that measure effected any benefit that could be fairly expected from it, but he certainly could not hope that the country would be preserved without an army. He did not profess to have so much confidence in his Majesty's Ministers as the hon. member for Middlesex had, but still he believed they would make all practicable reductions.
§ Sir Henry Parnellsaid, he was ready to support the different reductions which the hon. and gallant Officer proposed. Some of them, he must observe, did not go so far as he himself intended to push them. He admitted the great merit of several Commanders-in-chief; but, in his opinion, 799 they had too much control over the financial department of the army, and from that control, he conceived, the Secretary at War ought to be relieved. Notwithstanding what had been said as to the variety of topics that had been introduced in the course of this discussion, he thought that the country was greatly indebted to the hon. and gallant Officer for bringing forward this Motion.
§ Sir Adolphus Dalrymplesaid, it was evident to him that this Motion was introduced for the purpose of going over the Army Estimates for the fourth time. They had already been debated twice in Committee, and twice on bringing up the Report. During the three first speeches on this occasion, the House might, at any moment, have been counted out, which proved that the discussion had not attracted a great deal of attention. Out of 658 Members, not 40 were present for a considerable portion of the evening. The hon. member for Middlesex had made one of the most unfounded attacks he had ever heard on the Commander-in-chief, when he asserted that the noble lord had disposed of commissions for party purposes. It would have been well if the hon Member had "tabled" his facts before he ventured on such an assertion.
§ Mr. Courtenaysaid, he wished to observe, in answer to the statement of the hon. Member for Middlesex, who had asserted that few of the commanders of regiments had ever seen service, that he had looked over the army list, and, out of the colonels of ninety-seven regiments, he found no fewer than forty-seven who were decorated with the Cross of the Bath, or some other similar honour, and who, therefore, it was evident, must have been in active service. At the same time, it must be evident, that, after seventeen years' peace, there must be a great number of officers who had not attained any high rank at the close of the war, as well as some who had not then entered the service.
§ Captain Bolderowas of opinion, that; in the present state of the country, great reductions must be effected, in the event of a war, we must depend on our navy. Our debt would not allow us to send an army of 50,000 or 60,000 men to the Continent. It would never again be our policy to appear as a great military power in Europe. He thought that the Militia might safely be dispensed with. Their 800 services were never available on any great emergency, such as the riots at Bristol. He was of opinion that the recruiting departments might be placed upon a better footing. In many other points, reductions could safely be effected. In some of the colonies he had seen sentinels placed over guns, each of which would have required twenty men to move it. In other places sentinels were placed to guard fortresses where half a dozen of the bastions were in ruins, to prevent people from scratching their names on the walls.
Mr. Sheilexpressed a hope that the Hibernian Schools would not be abolished. A right hon. and gallant Member had said, that he could not perceive the connexion which exisisted between the present question and the Church Establishment of Ireland. He thought it must be evident to any man who considered the subject, that we were obliged to maintain a large force in Ireland, in consequence of the state of public feeling arising out of the Church Establishment of that country. We had now in Ireland an army of 30,000 men, a Yeomanry force of the same amount, and 5,000 or 6,000 police. Thus the Church Establishment of Ireland, besides possessing immense revenues of its own, cost this country a large sum of money for its maintenance. Let the people of England bear this fact in mind. The Government themselves admitted that they were obliged to maintain a large force in Ireland in order to protect the Church Establishment. The argument used in favour of Catholic Emancipation was, that the settlement of the question would enable the Government to withdraw the army from Ireland. Those who used this argument thought that Emancipation was all that Ireland required; but the Catholics always said, that much was wanting besides Emancipation, However, let the people of England be aware, that soldiers were necessary to support priests, and that a great sacerdotal establishment must be maintained by a large military one, and that the people paid for all. The crosier must be sustained by the bayonet, and in order to keep twenty-four mitres, many thousand casques and helmets must be paid for!
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that he was one of those who employed the argument, that the settlement of the Catholic question would enable the Government to reduce the military force in Ireland, and he was 801 very sorry to say, that he had been mistaken.
Colonel Evans, in reply, said that he differed from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, for he thought it was his duty to remove the veil from our military defects, not draw it more closely over them. He had done his duty in making the Motion; that it was not likely to be successful he regretted. He had brought it forward then because, owing to peculiar circumstances, the Array Estimates had not been sufficiently discussed.
§ Question put upon the previous question, and agreed to.—Some returns moved for by Colonel Evans, ordered.