SUPPLY—COLONIAL ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 23 July 1832)

§ Mr. Robinson
objected to the sum of 2,635l. being given as salary, &c., to the Governor.

§ Lord Howick
defended the grant. It was not too much for the responsible situation of the Governor, and to enable him to keep up that dignity and hospitality which were required of him.

Mr. Hume
objected to this vote, on the principle that our colonial establishments ought, as much as possible, to be made to defray their own expenses. With respect to the Governor of the Bahamas, who received a salary of 2,635l., he thought that it would be a much better course to leave the colonists to find a Governor for themselves; the result of which would be, that they would, for their own sakes, appoint a respectable person; and he would answer for it, that they would find some one who would be willing diligently to discharge 649 the duties of the office, for a smaller remuneration than that now conferred on the present Governor of the Bahamas.

Mr. Goulburn
was of opinion, that the salary was hardly adequate, considering the expenses and inconveniences that were attached to the office.

§ Mr. Hunt
moved, as an Amendment, that the salary he reduced from 2,635l. to 2,000l.

§ Sir Charles Wetherell
Does the hon. member for Middlesex think that his objection to-night is either fair or candid, after his speech on the Russian Dutch loan? Can he imagine, after that display, that his miserable, wretched cavils about economy, can be heard without utter scorn and contempt? Those who heard the manner in which he then argued and voted, that black was white, for the purpose of keeping Ministers in office, when the sum in question was 3,000,000l., must hear with ineffable contempt his dirty squabbling on the question whether a man, who exposes his life for the service of his country, is to lose a few hundreds a-year of his income? I say that it is clear that this vote is not one penny more than it ought to be; and I trust, that the hon. member for Middlesex will in future abstain from insulting the House with his penny-farthing economy, and from daring to indulge in his contemptuous attempt to persuade us to adopt so paltry and miserable a policy.

Mr. Hume
If anything like what has just fallen from the hon. and learned Gentleman had fallen from any other person, I certainly should have been surprised at it; but I am so accustomed to hear from him language which no other Member would use, that all surprise has long ago ceased. I will, however, take the liberty of telling him this—that before he finds fault, he should learn to speak the truth; for the vote to which he has alluded had nothing to do with economy whatever, the Motion having been made entirely from party feeling, to serve party purposes. The fact, however, is, that the hon. and learned Gentleman, and his friends, feel that their scheme has completely failed; and they are so sore under it, that now they are smarting, they are ready to take this or any other mode of lightening their sufferings. I beg to tell the hon. and learned Gentleman, that I shall dare to state to the House whatever I may think proper and right, and in so doing, I shall not be guided by his opinion as to whether I am insulting Parliament. If any one has insulted the House of Commons, it is the hon. and 650 learned Gentleman himself; nay, further, if any one has made himself absurd, inconsistent, and ridiculous in this House, it is the hon. and learned Gentleman; and as to treating the House in a contemptuous manner, I hope no one feels that any thing of that sort has ever proceeded from me. With respect to this being a miserable reduction, I do not believe that the hon. and learned Gentleman knows anything about it; he has come in in the middle of the discussion, and talked on a subject concerning which he knows nothing. My observations went to the colonies in general; and my argument was, that it was a bad example to be paying the officers high salaries, while the colonists themselves were suffering from distress. I, therefore, say, that the hon. and learned Gentleman's observations were unworthy of the House of Commons, and that he is continually attempting to state what is not the fact. In the debate on the Russian-Dutch loan, what I stated was, that I had frequently voted against my conviction in the progress of the Reform Bill, for the sake of carrying the whole of that measure; my aim was not to throw obstacles in the way; for God knows, there was enough of them from the other quarter. I further stated, that it appeared to me that the hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends, were calling on the House for its vote, under the plea of economy, and under the threat of an appeal to the hustings, though the real object was to place the Ministers in a minority, and so to force them to resign; and in proof of ray assertion, I called on the hon. member for Thetford, and the right hon. member for Tamworth to state whether, if they were in office to-morrow, they would refuse the money to Russia? That appeal was not answered: and I think that alone is quite sufficient to set aside all questions of economy. The manner in which the hon. and learned Gentleman continually brings up this topic only shows how he is smarting under his defeat; and, to speak honestly, I am very glad of it.

Mr. Goulburn
admitted the propriety of the last part of the hon. Member's remarks as to his right of expressing his sentiments, but concurred with his hon. and learned friend in censuring the inconsistent conduct of the hon. member for Middlesex upon a recent occasion. He deprecated any attempt to reduce the remuneration to persons serving as Governors in the colonies, who must make great sacrifices.

§ Sir Charles Wetherell
could assure the 651 House, that, in the annals of the House of Commons, nothing ever fell from any hon. Member which occasioned more disgust than the conduct of the hon. Gentleman. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he observed, cheered the member for Middlesex when he rose, but that cheer was quite out of place. He did not expect to hear the member for Middlesex cheered by the Gentlemen opposite for the vote he gave upon the subject of the Dutch Loan. The hon. Member said, he would vote black white, and white black. There was a time in the history of that House when such expressions would be taken down at the Table. The hon. Member said, he never voted in favour of economy or any other useful object. Now he begged to remind him, that he (Sir Charles Wetherell) opposed the establishment of the New Bankruptcy Court, which the hon. Member supported, and which would entail a useless expense of some thousands of pounds on the country.

§ Mr. Hunt
said, he had more reason to complain than the hon. member for Middlesex, for it was to him the hon. and learned Gentleman alluded, when he used the words miserable, dirty, paltry, farthing economy. To minds constituted in a certain way it might be worth some thousands to be able to tyrannize as a Colonial Governor sometimes did. Six hundred a year was not so very paltry a sum.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
appealed to the other votes, and especially to the next, as a proof that his Majesty's Government had shown every wish to make all practicable reductions.

§ Mr. Burge
defended the vote, and was prepared to maintain that the civil establishment of the colony could not be maintained at a less expense.

§ Mr. Robinson
was very happy to receive this vote as evidence of the disposition on the part of his Majesty's Government to diminish the expenditure of that colony.

§ Lord Howick
observed, that at one time the expense of that colony amounted to 6,000l., that it was now reduced to 800l., and next year it would be nothing.

§ Mr. Robinson
objected to the payment of such a sum as 1,500l. to the Colonial Secretary in Bermuda.

§ Lord Howick
said, it was not a greater sum than had been paid to other Colonial Secretaries, and the duties of the Secretary in that colony were much enhanced by the circumstance of its being a convict colony. It was also to be recollected that the Secretary in that colony, on a small scale performed most of the functions exercised upon a larger scale in this country by the Secretary of State, and that much important correspondence devolved upon him.

§ Mr. Dixon
agreed with the noble Lord, that the Secretary had important duties to perform, and would support the Motion.

Mr. Hume
hoped the Government would relieve the country from this charge before many months passed over.

§ Lord Howick
said, that all practical reductions would be made, but that he feared they could scarcely be accomplished to the extent which the hon. member for Middlesex, on that, and on former occasions seemed to desire. There were scarcely any expenses connected with that establishment, which did not materially contribute to the general prosperity of the island—for example, the Admiralty Court there was an establishment of much importance.

§ Mr. Robinson
would answer for it, that the colonists of Newfoundland would speedily be in a condition to defray the expenses of their own establishments; but as to the Admiralty Court, there could be no doubt that it was unnecessary, and there ought to be no new appointment when the judicial seat in that court became vacant; and for this reason, that all the decisions made there were afterwards reviewed by the Supreme Court. In his opinion the Admiralty Court was wholly unnecessary.

Mr. Hume
reminded the Government that a Committee had recommended that these Establishments should be withdrawn. And he expressed his surprise, that such a large sum was yet demanded for them.

§ Lord Howick
believed the hon. member for Middlesex was mistaken as to the recommendation of the Committee. If he understood rightly, the recommendation 653 was, to transfer the establishment at Sierra Leone to Fernando Po. The Spanish government, however, had refused to surrender its rights to Fernando Po, and he believed the suggestion of the Committee on that subject could not be acted upon. With respect to the establishment at Sierra Leone, a great improvement had taken place in the condition of the liberated Africans, and he feared that the progress of civilization would be considerably impeded, if our establishments in that colony were suddenly withdrawn.

Mr. Hume
doubted whether any great improvement had taken place in the colony. Indeed the evidence of the two Judges who had returned from it, and who had given their evidence very fairly, satisfied him that no great improvement was to be expected in the colony of Sierra Leone.

§ Lord Howick
said, one reason for retaining Sierra Leone was, that the Mixed Commission for deciding in cases of the capture of slave-ships, could not sit at Fernando Po, as it was not British territory. By the last accounts received in May from Sierra Leone, it appeared that it was greatly improved, and that the blacks settled there were greatly advancing in habits of industry, the adjacent country for a distance of twenty miles being cultivated to the very tops of the hills. It would not be good policy to relinquish these advantages for a small saving of money.

§ Sir George Murray
observed, that the establishments on the western coast of Africa had arisen out of the desire which existed in this county to put down the slave-trade. Sierra Leone was the situation first adopted. But the principal scene for the operations of the slave-ships being in the Bight of Benin, great mortality occurred on board those ships, when captured, in the voyage between the Bight of Benin and Sierra Leone. It was, therefore, deemed advisable to remove the settlement to Fernando Po. This change was recommended before he came into office. His own opinion was, that by pursuing this course they created two evils instead of one. If France acted up to her own treaties, like this country, more would be done for putting down the slave-trade than had ever been effected, and there would be no necessity for retaining Fernando Po, a station which he looked upon to be quite as unhealthy as Sierra Leone. If they removed the slave trade from the Bight of Benin, they might give up Fernando Po, but he should be sorry to hear that Sierra Leone was to be given 654 up, if it were only on the ground stated by the noble Lord (Howick), that giving it up now would check the progress of civilisation. The spread of civilisation was the only effectual mode of abolishing slavery. Lamenting deeply as he did the mortality at Sierra Leone, and the expense which it occasioned, he should, at the same time, be averse to giving up that colony. He had before suggested that an improvement might be effected by altering it from a British colony into a native state, under the protection of Great Britain; and he had had an opportunity, while he held office, of appointing two persons of African blood to situations there. He thought that that principle might be followed up with advantage.

§ Mr. Dixon
objected to the establishment at Sierra Leone as a sacrifice of the lives of Europeans. If we were to keep up either station, we ought to keep Fernando Po as more healthy than Sierra Leone.

Lord Sandon
thought, after so much expense and trouble had been taken, it would be proper to pause before they gave up the establishments on the coast of Africa.

Mr. Hume
knew that the North American Colonists did not wish to have one farthing of this grant. It was not for the support of religion, but for the exclusive support of a fraction of the people. It was like a vote for the Roman Catholics in England, under a pretence of providing for religion. It was extremely mischievous to continue this grant. He would not oppose this vote if the grant were to be wholly reduced in four years. It was a waste of money to vote it for a sect. The Government had undertaken to reduce the grant, and if he did not understand that something of that kind were to be done, he should oppose the vote.

§ Lord Howick
said, that as the clergymen died off, or were otherwise provided for, their places were not to be filled up.

Mr. Hume
asked, if Bishops and all were to go?

§ Lord Howick
said, Bishops and all; and the salaries were to be withdrawn from the Ministers of the Established Church. It was resolved that the North American Colonies should pay their own clergymen.

Sir Robert Inglis
was surprised that the grant should be so small. He thought 655 adequate funds ought to be provided, for affording the fullest means of religious instruction to the people intrusted to their care. He protested against the language of the hon. member for Middlesex, in calling the followers of the established religion a sect. If the hon. Member would consult any legal authority in that House or out of it, he would find, that in every colony of England the Church of England was the Established Church. That principle was recognized by Mr. Locke, in the constitution which he drew up for South Carolina. He thought that adequate means should be provided for the purpose of affording religious instruction to the people in our colonies. The hon. Baronet concluded by repeating, that wherever the flag of England waved, the Church of England was there the Church established by law, and that he made not that statement on his own authority alone, but upon the high authority of Mr. Locke.

§ Mr. Dixon
said that, as a Scotchman, he could not sit still and hear it declared, that wherever the flag of England was flying, the doctrines of the Church of England were the established religion of the land. He did not care who asserted the contrary; whether the authority was ancient or modern, he denied it; and to support his principle, he should move the reduction of the grant, even though that reduction only amounted to a sixpence. He should do it merely to assert a principle. The true way to alienate the feelings of Canada, as well as of Ireland, was to make the people of those countries pay for religious establishments to which they did not belong, and he was, therefore, glad that his Majesty's Ministers had adopted the course they were pursuing in this instance.

§ Lord Howick
said, with respect to the hon. Baronet's observation as to the smallness of the grant, he was happy to say, that Canada was almost able to maintain her own Church Establishment: and he did not see why this country should be called upon to maintain a Church Establishment in Canada, any more than it was called upon to defray the expense of maintaining a police establishment in that colony.

Mr. Labouchere
expressed his satisfaction at the course pursued by the Government, and at the state of the colony which permitted them to pursue it; and he wished to remind the hon. Baronet opposite that, by the faith of the most solemn treaties, the Roman Catholic religion was the established religion of a great part of Canada.

§ Mr. Hunt
was pleased to hear what the Government had done, and only wished they had gone further in reducing the amount of the grant.

Mr. Sheil
reminded the hon. Baronet that in one part of Canada the Roman Catholic religion was the established religion, not only by the faith of treaties, but by the provisions of an Act of Parliament, the 14th Geo. 3rd, by which the Catholic inhabitant was obliged to pay tithes to his church, which was the Established Church, while the Protestant paid no tithes, for the Established Church was not his church. There was certainly some difference in this respect between Canada and a place a little nearer home; and perhaps the Catholics ought to call the system followed in Canada, with respect to the Protestants, a robbery of the Catholic Church.

Mr. Goulburn
said, that this country was bound to keep up the Established Church in the colony in the same state as heretofore. He, therefore, objected to the reduced amount of the grant.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
said, that so far from Parliament having been hitherto cognizant of this grant, the greater portion of it had been generally supplied from a quarter which it would puzzle the most ingenious Gentleman in the House to conjecture—namely, from the sums voted for the army extraordinaries. It could not be said, then, that the principle on which this grant was made had annually come under the cognizance of Parliament. This colony was fully able to support its own religious establishments, and, under such circumstances, the best course obviously to pursue was, to throw them on the colony for their support.

§ Sir George Murray
said, it had not yet been proved that Canada could afford to pay for the Church Establishment; and he considered it was the duty of that House to contribute to its support. This country was bound to maintain the establishment of religion in the colonies, and to provide for them instruction in the truths of Christianity. He was no bigot in religion, and he must confess, that he had always regretted the allotment of lands for the exclusive support of the Protestant Church. He wished that the clergymen of every Church should be adequately provided for, and that with a view to the support of the Protestant Church. The Catholic Clergymen were already provided for, as well as the Protestant, and so it should go on for the support of the Ministers of every large sect. Emigration had extended to a great extent; 657 he considered it advisable to encourage it, and, to make it useful, religious instruction should be provided for by every class of emigrants.

§ Mr. Robinson
said, he was as much opposed as any man to the setting up an exclusive system of religion in our colonies; but the question here was, was the present grant to be withdrawn from the Canadas, no matter from what source the money was obtained? He thought it should not be suddenly withdrawn, and the more so as it was calculated to support the Protestant Church in our colonies. The change now proposed was too hasty, and, therefore, he would oppose it.

§ Mr. Dixon
was convinced that one of the greatest mischiefs in our colonies was the want of spiritual instruction for all the different sects who resided there. The people of Canada could now support their Church Establishment, and, therefore, we ought not to pay for it.

§ Mr. Hunt
said, that the people of England ought not to be forced to pay large salaries for either Protestant or Catholic Bishops in the Canadas.

§ Sir George Murray
bore his testimony to the high character of the Bishop of Quebec, than whom a more able or zealous clergyman did not exist.