COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA AFFAIRS.

HC Deb 27 January 1832 vol 9 cc1020-6

Mr. Charles Grant

said, that in rising to move for the appointment of a Select Committee on East-India Affairs, it would be necessary for him shortly to revert to what had been done on the subject in the last Session of Parliament, as well as to the course which, in his opinion, it would be expedient to pursue in the present Session. As the period at which the Charter of the East-India Company expired approached, a very general wish had arisen that the subject should be investigated by both Houses of Parliament. Accordingly, Select Committees were appointed for that purpose. The Committee of the House of Commons sat until nearly the close of last year. The Charter would expire in 1834. The time was rapidly passing away, and it became necessary, without further delay, to consider the best means of prosecuting the inquiry during the present Session. At the end of that period, he trusted that the Committee would be able to close their labours, and to present to the House, and to the country, such information as might qualify them to form a sound judgment on the great Question which was about to be determined. During the interval between the close of the present Session and the commencement of the next, an opportunity would be afforded to the House and to the country to look into the various materials which would be collected by the Committee, and to prepare their minds for discussing the important subject. At the same time, it would be the duty of his Majesty's Government to avail themselves of that interval, for the purpose of duly considering those plans which they must on their own responsibility propose for the future conduct of East-India affairs. In the discussion of those plans the whole of the next Session would be occupied; and there was every reason to hope, that after the ample materials laid before them, and the ample time afforded for deliberation, Parliament would, by the close of that Session, be enabled to come to a complete and satisfactory decision on this most important Question. The Committee which had already been appointed by both Houses of Parliament had collected a vast mass of information, although some of it existed at present in an irregular shape. But in the course of their exami- nation there were many important points which, he was apprehensive, had not yet been touched upon. When he proposed the Select Committee on the subject twelve months ago—which Committee was accordingly appointed—it was his feeling, and the feeling of the other members of the Committee, that it was not desirable that his Majesty's Government should lake any prominent part in the proceedings of that Committee. There were at that time, and, of course, there were at the present time, two parties: those who approved of the renewal of the privileges of the East-India Company, and those who disapproved of the renewal of those privileges. It was from the controversy between those two parties that it was expected the truth must be elicited; each party endeavouring to prove its own case. But the Court of Directors did not feel themselves called upon at that time to enter into the examination of the question at all; and those who were opposed to them, owing to particular circumstances, were unable to do justice to their own case. The examination, however, proceeded during the Session, with a confident expectation, that in the present Session, the Court of Directors would take a leading part in it. No petition from them to that effect had, however, been presented to Parliament; and it was now felt that some more direct and extensive means of investigation must be resorted to than those which had hitherto been adopted. His Majesty's Government had, in the last Session, not felt it their duty to take any direct part in the investigation, but had felt it their duty to watch the proceedings of the Committee, and to supply all the documents which they had the power to furnish; being resolved, that if no other mode of obtaining final information on the subject offered itself, that a satisfactory mode should be proposed by them in the present Session. In the course of the last Session some most important parts of the question, were brought under the consideration of the Committee, and a number of individuals were examined, whose knowledge of India enabled them to communicate a great deal of valuable information on the subject. But at the close of the Session, it became a matter of consideration in what manner, during the present Session, the question might be most advantageously considered; and the result of that consideration was, the Motion which he was about to have the honour of submitting to that House. He need not dwell on the vast variety of subjects which would necessarily come under the consideration of the Committee, connected with the whole legislative and other policy of our Indian empire. In proposing the appointment of the present Committee, he was quite aware that he asked of the Gentlemen of whom it was to be composed to take upon themselves no light task. He had communicated to those Gentlemen his intention; and he had expressed to them his earnest hope that, if they did undertake it, they would bestow upon it their almost undivided attention; and he had received assurances from them that they were disposed to do so. Looking at the vast range of subjects which were to be considered, it must be evident that it was impossible they could be advantageously investigated by a single body. It was absolutely necessary that he should submit to the House the expediency of sub-dividing the Committee, and thereby availing themselves of the great principle of the division of labour. In order to carry into effect this principle, in the best possible manner, it would be necessary to have a considerable number of sub-divisions—at least six or seven—all diligently devoting their time and attention to the particular points submitted to them. It might appear to some persons to be a difficult matter to assign to the different sub-Committees the different topics upon which their labours were to be particularly employed. But those departments had been already defined elsewhere, in the India House, and in the Board of Control, the business is divided into six distinct departments, each occupied with its own peculiar subject. He should propose, therefore, at least six Sub-Committees, each of which should have the consideration of a particular department. But there were other matters requiring consideration, and he should, therefore, proceed as far as to propose eight Sub-Committees. This practice of forming Sub-Committees had seldom been resorted to by that House, except in cases like the present, of the highest importance. Committees were generally appointed for some specific purpose, on which they were expected in a few days to make a Report to the House. The number of Members of which such Committees were composed, was consesequently comparatively small. But in this case, as the subject was one of extreme importance, as it would require long-continued attention, and as the Gentlemen of whom it was his intention to propose that the Committee should be formed, had assured him that they were prepared to devote as much of their time as possible to the investigation; and further, as the number of the Sub-Committees would be seven, or probably eight, and at least labouring four days in every week, it was impossible to prevent the number of Members from swelling far beyond the usual amount on such occasions. It was necessary also to provide for the unavoidable absence of some of the Members, and for other contingencies, in order that there might always be a supply equal to the demand. The number which he thought desirable was about forty-eight or forty-nine. General Committees on this subject had always been numerous. That last year consisted of thirty-eight Members—that the year before of thirty-five. In 1813, the General Committee on this question consisted of forty Members. He trusted that the Members of the proposed Committee and the House would do him the justice to believe, that in making this proposition his only motive was to facilitate the labours of the Committee, to bring those labours to an early close, and to place before the House and the public, previous to the Parliamentary decision on the case, as fairly and fully as possible, the materials on which alone a sound judgment could be formed. It might be supposed by some, that notwithstanding the members of the Committee, and notwithstanding the number of Sub-Committees which he proposed to form, it would be difficult to bring the investigation to a close in the present Session of Parliament. Certainly that difficulty would exist if there had been no previous inquiry. But a large mass of information had been obtained by former Committees, and was lying on the Table of the House. The Committees of the House of Commons and House of Lords had received the evidence of many individuals on the subject; and although that evidence was not systematically arranged, still the materials were there, and with those materials the proposed Committee might be supplied. In addition to this, directions had for some time been given by the Board of Control to its officers to prepare to give all the information which it was in their power to communicate. Those officers had been employed in arranging the evidence given before the Committees of the House of Lords and the House of Commons, and in framing a summary of the whole. Immediately on the appointment of the Sub-Committees, the attention of each of them would necessarily be directed to the collection of the evidence peculiar to that department confided to its examination. In addition to this, the superior officers of the Board, with which he had the honour of being connected, were preparing statements, historical summaries, and every species of document calculated to place the main facts of the case in as clear a point of view as possible. The Board of Control had, in addition, collected many most important documents which would be laid before the Committee. The same labour had been undertaken at the India House, and the Directors had offered their best assistance on the subject. That assistance would be valuable, as all must acknowledge who knew anything of the zeal and industry of the officers of the India House. They had, he was happy to say, offered him their assistance in the most prompt manner; and he expected to receive the most valuable aid from their labours. He believed he should be thus enabled to lay information of a most important nature before the public; and he owed it, in justice to his own department, to say, that they had shown the utmost zeal to forward the inquiry by their services. Under these circumstances, he should move "That a Select Committee be appointed upon the affairs of the East-India Company, and to inquire into the state of the Trade between Great Britain and the East Indies and China, and to report their observations thereon to the House."

Mr. Courtenay

wished to offer a very few words at present on this subject; but he had no intention whatever of opposing the motion, which, on the contrary, met with his cordial approbation. He was extremely glad to learn from his right hon. friend, that the greatest exertions had been made to furnish every information calculated to facilitate the labours of the Committee. One of the greatest inconveniences experienced in the former Committees on this subject was, the desultory mode of proceeding. He, therefore, rejoiced at the adoption of any means calculated to get rid of the evil then experienced. He had no doubt, from what he knew of the persons employed to prepare the various statements and documents which were to be furnished, that very great advantages would be derived from the proposed mode of proceeding. He wished, however, to ask his right hon. friend, whether the new mode of proceeding to be adopted in the Committee, was not framed on rather a more extended basis than was quite reconcileable with the usual inquiries referred to Committees? He was not quite clear, that all the topics which his right hon. friend intended to submit to the investigation of the Sub-Committees were entirely relevant to the measure which would be introduced to Parliament for the future guidance of the affairs of the East-India Company. If, however, it should be found, that the Committee had too much to do, it could easily select the topics which it would be most expedient to submit for the consideration of Parliament. He should support the Motion of his right hon. friend; and should he be a Member of one of the Sub-Committees, he would endeavour to advance, as much as possible, the topic of inquiry on which he might be engaged; and would, in every way, promote the end in view, and would endeavour to put the information furnished to the House in such a state, that a correct judgment might be readily formed on the subject. He hoped, however, that the Committee would bear in mind that the principal objects for consideration were, whether the China trade should be thrown open, and whether the management of East-India affairs should continue, as heretofore, in the hands of the Company; and, if this be decided in the negative, to what other body it should be transferred? There were other important subjects of inquiry; for instance, the management of the revenue, and the administration of justice, but these would not so properly come under consideration in an inquiry relative to the renewal of the Charter, as at a subsequent period. He thanked his right hon. friend for the trouble he had taken in bringing this subject under the consideration of the House.

Sir James Macdonald

said, that there were no topics connected with this subject which would not be well worth the attention of the House and the public. With respect to the ultimate object in view, he believed it to be that which his right hon. friend had suggested, namely, how the interests of this country could be brought to bear advantageously on those of that great empire, and how the interest, the prosperity, and the happiness of the people of that country could be best promoted and secured.

Mr. Goulburn

would not detain the House more than one moment: but he had a question to put to his right hon. friend. It was understood, that the former Committees appointed for this purpose were directed only to collect evidence, and to put it in form; but they were not directed to give opinions on the several topics of their investigation. But, if he understood his right hon. friend correctly, he intended that the present Committee should be instructed to report their opinions. He wished, therefore, to know whether this were so or not? He understood that the Committee was to be divided into a number of Sub-Committees. If that were the arrangement, was the House to hear the opinions of each of these Sub-Committees as to the particular topic of investigation referred to it? He had no intention to offer any opposition to the motion for the appointment of the Committee; but he was desirous of obtaining this information.

Mr. Stuart Wortley

also wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was intended that one of the several sub-Committees should devote its sole attention to a subject on which a Committee had already been occupied during the whole of one Session?

Mr. Charles Grant

answered, that the words of the Resolution he had just moved were the same as those which had been used on a former occasion. Certainly, for himself, he was not prepared to say, that one Sub-Committee should be solely occupied with the department of China. Those matters of detail, however, would be best regulated in the Committee. With respect to the question of his right hon. friend the Sub-Committees would not report to the House, but to the general Committee, which would make its Report to the House.

The Committee was appointed.