§ Mr. Spring Ricebrought forward the Army Extraordinaries. He begged to say, that he proposed to take a general vote for three months, to the extent of 300,000l. The House would perceive that a great reduction had been made in those Estimates, and he hoped a similar service would be effected on the sum which might now be voted. He should be most happy to give every explanation on the subject of those Estimates, which might be required, and he would reserve himself for that purpose.
504 The question was then put, that a sum not exceeding 300,000l. be granted for the purpose of defraying the extraordinary expenses of the Army.
Mr. Humesaid, that the form of these accounts rendered them totally unintelligible. They seemed to be a mere cover for expenses of every description, which could not be brought regularly before the House. He would not ask his right hon. friend for any explanation of them, because he knew it must be out of his power to give it. He believed, however, there was a reduction in the whole sum charged. Surely a better system of keeping the public accounts could be had, by which each separate department could give an exact account of their receipt and expenditure drawn up by the proper officers, who should be responsible for their correctness.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that he had always objected to the form of the accounts, as there were a great many of the most incongruous items introduced under this head: a Government ship for Newfoundland, Indian presents for Canada, and the payment of the clergy in the same colony, appeared strangely in an account like this, and so also did the expenses of the Swan River establishment. With respect to these they formed a large and increasing burthen. The Governor, Captain Stirling, had been empowered to draw bills on the Treasury at home for any stores that might be required. He had done so, but the Government had now sent out a commissary to superintend the providing of stores, and act as a check with respect to these bills. At the same time he must state, that there were many charges to be provided for during the year, which could not be foreseen at the commencement, although their effects might be ultimately attended with a saving of the public money. For instance, in these accounts, there was a charge of 61,715l. for the purchase of half-pay commissions, by which an annual saving in the dead weight had accrued of 10,236l., but no doubt many items appeared in their accounts which ought not to be found there, and that they afforded a facility for certain expenses, could not be denied. The great charges incurred on account of the Canadian canals, were of that character. As a general change was contemplated in the form of these accounts, it would not be right to impede this vote by an alteration,
§ Colonel Torrenssaid, that the late Administration ought to be made responsible for all expenses connected with the Swan River settlement. Had the proper principle of colonization been attended to, as they had been with regard to the American colonies, this country would not have been put to any expense on that account.
§ Mr. Ruthvenfeared the late Government had managed the settlement with more regard to private interests, than for the public benefit: more expenses had been incurred on that account than were proper, and most assuredly such charges ought not to be found in the Army Extra-ordinaries even if they were right.
§ Mr. Whitmoreasked why this country should be called on to pay money for a colony which seemed to have been established only because a private individual wished to settle in a part of Australia.
§ Mr. Spring Ricecould not give a definite answer. The Governor, as he had before stated, was allowed to draw bills on the Government at home, and upon that principle he had hitherto acted. This would not, however, continue, as a commissary for this especial purpose had been sent out. There was, however, a prospect that these extraordinary supplies would not be longer wanted. He certainly was of opinion, that it was a very unadvisable proceeding to give the Governor of a colony the power of drawing bills to any extent, without the smallest check whatever. He expected a report from Captain Stirling upon the subject very soon, but at all events, it would not be prudent to act hastily on this point, as great interests might be injured by so doing.
Mr. Humewas aware that official persons too often considered, when appointed to colonial situations, that the public purse was at their mercy. He was surprised at the large demand that was made for the support of this colony, after the pledge that had been given by the late Government, upon its being founded, that no expense would be thereby incurred.
Mr. Goulburndid not know when the hon. Member had obtained the pledge alluded to. The hon. Member certainly had not received any pledge from him that the founding this, a new colony, should not be attended with any expense to Government.
Mr. Hume'sobjection applied to the circumstance of granting to a mere Captain of a ship of war the power of dispensing and controlling alone so large a sum as 24,000l. on account of a paltry colony. With respect to pledges, he remembered that when the largeness of the grant of 270,000 acres to one individual was adverted to in the House, it was replied, that the grant was made on condition that the country should sustain no expense. He thought, in such cases, it would be highly desirable that papers should be laid before the House explanatory of the mode of this application of money in the distant colonies.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the hon. Member was welcome to have all the papers in the public offices on the subject. The object proposed in appointing a Commissary to the station was to control and limit the expense, and he had been taken from the half-pay list.
§ Sir George Murraywas Secretary for the Colonial Department at the period of the outfit of the colonists to the Swan River, and agreed that a pledge given under such circumstances by a Minister would be binding; but the pledge alluded to was altogether imaginary. The reason for founding this colony was purely political, lest another Power, as was expected, should send a colony thither, which would, no doubt, have proved, in time, a possible source of hostility between the two mother countries. The salaries were arranged at the smallest possible rate; but it was absurd to imagine this sort of colony could be founded without Government incurring a portion of the expenses incident to its infant state. He had never given any such pledge as that alluded to.
Mr. Humebegged again to remind the right hon. Baronet, that it was on the occasion when the enormous grants of land which had been given to favoured individuals was adverted to in that House, particularly the grant, in one instance, amounting to 270,000 acres, that the pledge, that no expense would be incurred had been given.
§ Sir George Murraysaid, it was necessary, to induce some capitalists, who could maintain the expense of bringing out colonists, and locating them there, that a large grant of land should be given, as an inducement to such capitalists to embark in so hazardous a speculation. This the Colonial Office then did to avoid the expense of transport of the individuals 507 going out thither, which was, as he had promised, borne by the persons to whom this grant of land was made.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, that this colony had been founded on a wrong principle. He acquitted the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Murray) of any intention to do what was not right; but the course pursued, of giving large grants of land to individuals, was pregnant with mischief. He thought it also a very doubtful policy to people the large continent of Australia with convicts. He had understood that it had not been intended to make the Swan River a convict colony, and he regretted to hear that it had become so.
§ Sir George Murraysaid, that there never had been an intention to make it a convict colony, and if it had become so, it was since he was out of office. The principle laid down at the formation of the settlement was, that it never should become a convict colony. With respect to large grants of land to individuals, in old colonies, it was no doubt impolitic, but in new colonies it was only by making large grants that individuals could be induced to carry out emigrants.
§ Lord Althorpwas not aware of the grounds upon which the hon. Member had stated that the Swan River had become a convict colony.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, he had understood that application had been made to that effect by the settlers, and that the application had been granted. He spoke only from an impression on his own mind.
§ Mr. Dixonbegged to refer hon. Members to the former policy of this country to prove that, in the establishment of a colony small grants of land were preferable to large grants, and that the latter were productive of great inconvenience.
Mr. Humecalled the attention of the Committee to the large sum voted for Ceylon. There was a sum of 95,000l. more than the receipts for the year 1831 to be defrayed by this country. This fine colony was capable of supporting itself; but it was the most extravagant colony belonging to the Crown. There should be regular colonial vouchers for the expenditure, and a debtor and creditor account.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the apparent large expenditure was occasioned by the redemption of debentures of a debt contracted in the Canadian war. The civil establishment was defrayed by the island, and better arrangements were now made 508 for rendering the revenues more productive.
§ Colonel Torrensprotested, in the name of the people of England, against this country being burthened with the civil expenditure of any colony.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the hon. Member's protest was unnecessary, as far as regarded Ceylon, for this country was not called upon to pay any part of the civil establishment of that colony.
§ Mr. Huntknew, from experience, that however sound the objections to votes of this description were, they were generally carried, although they might, as in the case of the 1,000l. relating to the supply of water to the Metropolis in the civil contingences, be postponed for a time,
Mr. Humesaid, that no single colony paid its expenses. He begged to ask, if there was any prospect of the House having the accounts of the colonies from year to year, as had been promised?
§ Lord Howicksaid, there were considerable difficulties in preparing an account which was perfectly new, and of which great part was to be procured from the colonies. It was his intention soon to present one as complete as possible for this year, and a more complete one next year.
§ Mr. Burgewas sorry to hear the hon. member for Middlesex say, that no single colony paid its expenses. All the colonies paid their civil and ecclesiastical expenses, and some of them a great part of their military expenses. The island of Jamaica paid the whole expenses of its civil establishment, the whole expense of its ecclesiastical establishment with the exception of the Bishop, and 140,000l. of its military expense.
Colonel Daviesmaintained, that there was not a single colony in the possession of this country which was not a heavy burthen to it. The Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, &c. were parts of the expenditure. In the paper in his hand he found large items for the service of Jamaica.
§ Mr. Burge, in explanation, observed, that he had never said, that the whole of the expense of the military establishments was defrayed by the colonies.
Mr. Humeobserved, that the country was at the expense of maintaining 35,000 men in the colonies. He did not ask for an account of the expense of those colonies which did not ask the mother country for money; only for those which did.
Mr. Keith Douglasthought, that no man could be so silly as to suppose, that the expense in question was solely for the benefit of the colonies—it was for the general advantage of the empire.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the next Resolution he had to propose related to the Commissariat Department. There had been a reduction of 21,359l. upon the Estimate of the last year, chiefly caused by the diminution of Commissaries in the West-India islands, and at New South Wales; he begged leave, therefore, to move, that 398,781l. be granted to defray the charges of the Commissariat Department up to March 31, 1832.
Mr. Goulburnthought this vote ought to be postponed until they had voted the military estimate for the year. They had only done so already up to the end of March, and it was not known what number of troops would be required from that time until March, 1833.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, there was no difficulty in dividing the vote, and taking it for the quarter only. It was, however, giving the House the trouble of taking two votes, instead of one.
§ Sir Henry Hardingebegged to inquire if the saving arose from the diminution of the number of Commissaries employed alone.
§ Mr. Spring RiceNot altogether. There was some saving on account of half-pay, and a large saving on account of forage.
Mr. Warburtonwished to have some estimate of the expense likely to be incurred for completing the Rideau Canal, before this vote was granted.
The Resolution withdrawn.
13,204l. to defray the charges for the half-pay, superannuations, and retired allowances of the Officers of the Commissariat, up to March 31, 1832; and 83,235l. to defray certain other charges upon the Commissariat Department, 1832, were voted.