§ Mr. Dawsonbegged leave, before the House went into Committee, to take that opportunity of protesting against the course which had been followed the other night in voting away money after twelve o'clock. On the understanding that the rule which had been latterly observed by the last Government would have been adhered to, he had left the House, and consequently had not an opportunity of opposing two grants to which he wished now to call the attention of the House. The first was a vote of 500l. to Mr. Marshall for his Statistical Tables. That was no doubt, a very useful and valuable work; it had gone through two or three editions, and he had bought a copy of it, and he believed many others had done the same. He thought, therefore, that as the work contained so many valuable statements, and had gone through several editions, the author would have been recompensed for his trouble by the sale, without a grant from Government. If the book contained valuable information for a certain class of people, it would be bought up as fast as the works of Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott were purchased by another class. He was, therefore, utterly at a loss to understand why this money had been voted, unless, indeed, it was because its author had for many years been a protege of the hon. member for Middlesex, and had formerly been in his employment. Owing to these circumstances, and to his recommendation to the Government, the grant had probably been made. Had any other thing of a similar kind been proposed at two o'clock in the morning by the late Ministers, he was sure it would have been opposed by the hon. Member, who, by the way, was in the House at the time. The reply of the hon. member for Middlesex was, that he would vote anything for the sake of Reform, and by his recommendation he believed the 500l. was given to Mr. Marshall. The other item against which he protested was, the vote of 900l. to Dr. Bowring for his services in inquiring into the mode of keeping the public accounts in France. That learned Gentleman, after making the inquiry, and laying the plan before Government, concluded by saying, that it was a system, in comparison of others, beyond all praise, and that it was the most perfect system yet discovered of keeping the public accounts; yet, no sooner was such a statement made, than the cashier of the French Exchequer 474 ran off with between 200,000l. and 300,000l. In the old antiquated bungling system, which had long been followed in this country, no such malversation had taken or could take place. A clerk might run off with 2,000l. or 3,000l. but no one ever heard of a Secretary or Treasurer carrying off anything like such a sum as had been embezzled in France. As he could not then oppose the votes, his chief object in making these remarks was, to let the country see how well the economists could, when they had the opportunity, take care of their friends.
Mr. Humesaid, that the right hon. Gentleman had once or twice before adverted to the case of Mr. Marshall, and, in order to arrive at the true state of the circumstances, it was his intention to move for copies of the Treasury minute, in order to see the authority on which the grant had been made; and he was convinced that, on due consideration, the vote would be found most justifiable. He was astonished, however, at the right hon. Gentleman making such a charge—a Gentleman who, while in office, had sanctioned the most extravagant proceedings, and voted away thousands and tens of thousands of the public money; yet when the sum of 500l. was granted to one, and 1,000l. to another gentleman, for valuable services, the right hon. Member came forward, and complained as if some notorious job had been connived at. He should be ready to answer for the first case, and he had little doubt the right hon. member for Queen's County (Sir H. Parnell) would be able to defend the other. He had every reason to believe that the gentleman alluded to by the right hon. Member had rendered the right hon. Baronet great assistance in bringing forward the public accounts. He must again repeat his surprise that the right hon. Gentleman, who with his colleagues, had been so prodigal of the public money, should come forward now and complain of such grants, for his part, he must say, that he agreed to the vote at the hour mentioned, because he did not wish to stop the Reform question, and because he was aware that the object of the right hon. Gentleman, and some of those with whom he acted, was to delay the discussion till next day, in order to retard Reform. A charge of passing a vote for 500l. at that late hour came with a bad grace from one of the party who had spent 40,000l. on a marble arch, and 250,000l. more on a 475 Palace, without the sanction of Parliament. He was most anxious to compare notes with the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, because where the right hon. Gentleman had squandered away money by hundreds and thousands, he would challenge him and defy him to prove, that the other party had done it at all. He utterly denied that the case alluded to was a job. He denied altogether that he could be charged with a job. Let the Treasury only produce the authority on which the grant was made, and he should be ready to defend the case on public principles.
§ Lord Althorpconcurred in the general principle that it was wrong to make grants of the public money to authors, but he was prepared, on the showing of the right hon. Gentleman, to defend the conduct of Government on this occasion. The right hon. Gentleman had told the House that he conceived the work so valuable, that he purchased a copy of it. Now Government had done nothing more. They had merely advanced the money to Mr. Marshall on the condition that he would furnish copies of his tables to all the public offices. It was altogether, a matter of bargain and sale between the parties. As to the grant to Dr. Bowring, he would only remark, that that gentleman had been regularly employed by Government to examine into the system of keeping public accounts in France—a system which there was no doubt, contained many advantages: and the item to which the right hon. Gentleman objected was charged as remuneration for this employment. Many valuable suggestions were contained in the report of Dr. Bowring, and he did not think that the sum was more than ought to have been given when the trouble to which that individual was put came to be considered. The case of malversation in France alluded to by the right hon. Member did not arise from any defect in the principle of carrying on business in France, but from the checks which Dr. Bowring had praised having been omitted.
§ Sir Henry Parnellsaid, it was at the recommendation of the Finance Committee that Dr. Bowring had been employed, and he willingly took upon himself the responsibility of the sum charged for his remuneration. That gentleman had been recommended as well qualified, for the office of examining the French mode of keeping accounts by a Member of the late Administration. From the two reports which 476 he had drawn up, as to the mode of keeping the accounts in France, with respect to the military expenditure of that country, and the expenditure of the Colonial Department, it was obvious that he possessed much skill and knowledge on such subjects, and that the money was well earned. With respect to what had been asserted by the right hon. Gentleman as to the fraud practised, that fraud was detected in consequence of the regulations. He really thought nothing could be more unfounded than the objections made to this grant. The French system was the result of many years' laborious investigation, and it appeared to him absurd to put our chance-begotten plan in competition with it.
§ Mr. Dawsondenied that he wished to object to bringing up the report of the Committee of Supply the other night, as the hon. member for Middlesex had somewhat presumptuously stated for the purpose of delaying the Reform Bill. That hon. Gentleman, if not asleep on that occasion, certainly betrayed an obtuseness of understanding such as he frequently exhibited in that House. He did not object to the whole of the civil contingencies, but merely wished to have an explanation with respect to two items in that report—viz., those which gave sums of money to Mr. Marshall and Dr. Bowring. He wished for information upon that subject, and could not obtain it, the bringing up the report at the hour he had mentioned took him by surprise. He still thought that Mr. Marshall would not have received any remuneration, had he not been a protegé of the hon. Member, and he still thought the remuneration given to Dr. Bowring much too large. He hoped that the noble Lord would cause an estimate to be submitted to the House, before he Commissioned Dr. Bowring to execute anymore public works.
Mr. Baringas a member of the Finance Committee was bound to say that the public accounts submitted to that Committee were not kept on a correct and simple principle. He, therefore, considered expenditure on an inquiry of that nature was money well laid out, for it was notorious our system of keeping public accounts was most wretched. He would take an early opportunity to examine the reports which had been made by Dr. Bowring, and then he should be better able to judge of their value. As he had just stated, he really thought money expended on that subject was usefully 477 employed, provided the person selected was fully qualified to execute the task.