DIVISION OF COUNTIES.

HC Deb 16 February 1832 vol 10 cc417-21

Lord John Russell

moved for leave to bring in a Bill to settle the limits and boundaries of counties. He should not occupy much of the time of the House in stating the nature of this Bill, because the discussion at present would be useless, as the Reports on which the Bill was founded were already on the Table, and contained a better explanation of what was proposed to be done than he could pretend to lay before the House in any speech of his. When the former Bill for the Reform of the Representation was before this House, Commissioners were sent to ascertain the boundaries of counties, with a view to the division of them, and to settle the limits of cities and boroughs. When that Bill was rejected in the other House of Parliament, it was determined that these Commissioners should not themselves settle the boundaries, but that use should be made of the information which they had collected, and that the Government should propose a measure founded upon it. The persons employed in this task were twenty gentlemen, part of those who had been mentioned when the former Bill was under discussion, who had not only exhibited a high degree of industry and zeal, but a degree of ability, which proved that no better men could have been selected for this very arduous and important duty. When a certain number of their Reports had been made, they were taken into consideration by Government, and general rules were given to the Commissioners, to which they were desired to make their Reports conform. The Reports, after being made conformable to these rules, were submitted by Government to the revision of three gentlemen, who were desired to arrange them, as far as it was possible, into different classes, and to give to each borough that particular kind of boundary which properly belonged to it, according to the class in which it was placed. The persons to whom this task had been assigned were his hon. friend (Mr. Littleton), the member for Staffordshire, Captain Beaufort, whose name was well-known throughout Europe, and Lieutenant Drummond. These Gentlemen were also informed, that it was the opinion of Government, on considering the Reports already presented, that, with respect to boroughs containing less than 300 10l. houses, it would be advisable to take in the parish, where it did not extend beyond four miles from the centre of the town or borough; and that where there were separate parishes, it was also thought advisable to take in such parishes adjoining on different sides, provided they did not extend beyond the space of four miles; but in no case to draw a line adding to any borough a separate town with a separate boundary. Before this rule was adopted, different Reports were made on different principles, some advising that a certain circuit should be added to the boroughs; and others pointing out a town, five, six, or seven miles distant, which they proposed should be joined to a particular borough. It was thought advisable to take one of these modes, and not deal with this borough by one rule, and with that borough by another; and the Government came to the conclusion that it would be more satisfactory, upon the whole, to the boroughs, to have joined with them the country immediately close upon their own boundaries, than to connect them with separate towns, between which and themselves it was most likely that rivalries and jealousies would prevent the existence of any sort of harmony in the exercise of the elective franchise. With respect to boroughs containing more than 300 10l. houses, but not a great many more—say between 300 and 500—a similar course had, to a certain extent, been pursued. Less objection was felt to adding a part or the whole of the parish in the which the borough was situated, provided it did not go beyond a certain distance, and the ancient boundaries of the borough did not seem to be suitable. But in all cases in which the boundaries of the old boroughs were ample and sufficient, and where there was no part of the town adjoining to the boroughs which ought fairly to be added to them, it was thought better to take the ancient boundaries, rather than to disturb them for the purpose of adding a small number of houses. There were certainly some exceptions to these rules, for it was impossible for the Commissioners not to take into consideration the peculiar circumstances of each borough, by which they might be enabled to judge whether a particular part of the adjoining town was, or was not, intimately connected with the industry of the borough. All these circumstances were, however, fully stated in the Report which had been sent in by the three gentlemen to whom he had alluded. With respect to counties, the object first contemplated was, to divide them, if possible, into two portions of equal extent, as regarded the population and the number of voters; but it was found, in several instances, that this object could not be attained without altering the old boundaries of hundreds, and other ancient divisions of the counties. It was, therefore, thought more advisable in many counties to make the hundreds, which were usually considered the northern hundreds, one division, and the southern hundreds another division, than to draw an arbitrary line across the hundreds, for the purpose of making an exact division. At the same time, however, the number of persons qualified to serve on Juries would afford some criterion to judge between the two separate portions of the counties. It was impossible to ascertain what the exact number of voters would be according to the new franchise of the Reform Bill; but that would be equally difficult to discover if the old right of voting remained undisturbed. The extent and population, however, of each division was so great, that no fear need be entertained of its independence. He should not trespass further than to say, that having so great a task imposed on them as to settle the limits of 247 boroughs, and to visit a great number of others with the purpose of ascertaining their extent with respect to their disfranchisement, these gentlemen had performed their labour in a manner that reflected the highest credit on them, and that he believed would be found to entitle them to the thanks of Parliament, The Government, at least, felt that it was impossible to have been better served. A number of different persons, selected from various professions, had been united in one common bond of zeal and attention in the performance of a task which they had performed to the advantage of the public service, and in a manner worthy of their own reputation. There was one thing that had often been mentioned in the discussions of the Reform Bill, which was, the question, whether certain individuals would gain or lose in political power by the settling of these limits? That question had either never come under the consideration of the Commissioners, or had been utterly disregarded by them. They had not considered whether a certain division would add to, or diminish the political influence of any individual or party, but whether the place under their consideration could form such a constituency as the Reform Bill required. Having made these observations, he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to settle and describe the divisions of counties, and the limits of cities and boroughs, in England and Wales, in so far as respects the elections of Members to serve in Parliament, leaving the House to obtain full knowledge of its provisions and objects from the papers already on the Table.

Mr. Goulburn

agreed with the noble Lord, that this was not the time to go into a discussion of the details of this Bill. He had no doubt that the Gentleman to whom the Government intrusted the preparing of the report, which formed the ground work of it, had acted with the strictest propriety; but, from the very nature of their employment, it was obvious that the mode in which they performed their duties was open to animadversion. He trusted, therefore, that they would not suppose that those who took part in the discussion on this measure, or who thought it their duty to comment upon the manner in which the work had been performed, intended to impute to them that they had been actuated by improper motives. He had no doubt those Gentlemen had been anxious to act with the utmost impartiality, and with an entire absence of party feelings. He thought it due to say so much with regard to these Gentlemen, and, at the same time, to claim for those who might doubt the accuracy of their report, the credit that, in the observations which would be made, nothing like personal considerations might be taken into account.

Sir Edward Sugden

trusted, that ample time would be allowed for the consideration of this Bill, as it was a measure of the utmost importance. He would take that opportunity of suggesting that steps should be taken to secure a knowledge of the present boundaries. The House must be aware that some of the most important causes that come into a court of justice, related to the boundaries of cities and boroughs, and, therefore, it was of consequence that some record of these boroughs should be preserved.

Leave given, and Bill brought in.