CHOLERA PREVENTION BILL (SCOT- LAND). (Hansard, 15 February 1832)

The Lord Advocate
trusted that he should be allowed to bring in the Cholera Bill for Scotland to-night, although he had not given any notice. He had intended, in the first instance, to include Scotland within the operation of the Bill brought forward by his noble friend; but as doubts had arisen whether that could be done, in consequence of particular laws prevailing in that part of the empire, he thought it better to bring in a separate measure. The object of his Motion was, to obtain leave to bring in a Bill for the prevention, as far as might be possible, of the spread of the disease, called the Cholera, in Scotland. The general provisions were the same as those in the Act which had just passed through the House, making allowances for the peculiar circumstances of Scotland. Hon. Members who were present in the early part of that evening, were aware of the circumstances which induced him to leave Scotland out of the operation of that Act; but this was a similar measure, allowing only for the difference in the nature of the Poor-laws of the two countries, and also for the difference of legal phraseology. The means of providing the necessary funds were the same in both Bills—namely, by means of a charge in the assessment for the poor. There was, however, a manifest difference between the circumstances of the two countries, although the law, as to a provision being made for the destitute poor, was the same. In England an assessment could be made without any difficulty, as the Poor-laws existed in every parish, and the machinery was, therefore, ready for operation in this instance. This was not the case in Scotland, for in two thirds of the parishes of that kingdom, there had never been a compulsory assessment and collection for the poor, although the law for allowing such collection applied generally to all the parishes. In the Bill which he now submitted to the House, he proposed that the assessment should be made according to the local Acts, in some of the royal burghs and other places, which were governed by such, and exempted from the operation of the general law. He had stated that in a large portion of the parishes, in nearly two-thirds, no assessment for the 403 poor had ever been made, although the laws for that purpose were still in force, and could be carried into operation when necessary. In many of them the Poor-laws had never been introduced, in consequence of the great exertions of the parishioners to prevent the introduction of a system which, they feared, if even brought into operation, might not easily be got rid of. The present, however, was a case which could not be treated in the ordinary way, and which, if anything could, would justify the resorting to extraordinary measures. The House was aware that, by the present law of Scotland, to make an assessment for the Poor-laws valid, it must be agreed to, and settled, at a meeting of the inhabitants of the parish. Now, in case such meeting should not be held, the Kirk Session might order and direct that an assessment be made for the purposes of this Act. He was aware that there existed in the minds of many the strongest objections to the introduction of compulsory assessments into those parishes of Scotland, into which the system had not hitherto been introduced, and no case but one like the present—of sheer necessity—could justify the Legislature in resorting to this course; although, by the strict letter of the law of the land, all parishes in Scotland were liable to this species of assessment. He proposed that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the prevention, as far as might be possible, of the disease called the Cholera, or spasmodic or Indian Cholera, in Scotland.

§ Sir William Rae
would not throw any impediment in the way of the learned Lord; but he trusted that the House would have an opportunity of well considering the provisions of this Bill, and that it would be printed without delay. He could not accede to the course proposed by the learned Lord, and he regretted this the more, as he had wished to avoid discussion on a Bill of this nature. His objection to this measure did not rest on common grounds; he protested against it, as the commencement of a compulsory system of Poor-laws, in all the parishes in Scotland, and which two-thirds of these parishes had made the greatest sacrifices to prevent. The people of Scotland would regard the proposal now made with the utmost alarm, and he trusted that all the Members from that country would be alive to their duties, and oppose the general application of a most objectionable system—a system which, after it had once been resorted to, had seldom or never 404 been abandoned. The learned Lord made his rule general, but, at the same time, he exempted those places having special Police Acts. He (Sir William Rae) thought, by means of one or other of these Acts, something might have been suggested to his mind, to have rendered it unnecessary to resort to this system. For instance, before the learned Lord proceeded with this Bill, he ought to refer to the 59th George 3rd, c. 61, and he would there find a much better mode suggested for raising funds. This Act related to the building of gaols, and he would see, by looking to it, that certain sums were to be paid upon lands, according to their value, and upon houses, according to their rental. He trusted that the learned Lord would abandon the idea of having a fixed and compulsory rate levied in all the parishes of Scotland that might be visited by this disease. He hoped that the learned Lord would agree with him, that it was most desirable that whatever measure was introduced on this subject, should prove acceptable to the people of Scotland, and be carried into effect with alacrity; and he was confident that this would not be the case with the compulsory parochial assessment. The utmost consternation would prevail at this measure, for the people of Scotland would regard it as the first step to the adoption of the frightful system of Poor-laws which prevailed in this country. English Members, who were continually witnesses to the evils of the system which prevailed in England, ought to do their utmost to exempt Scotland from a similar curse.

§ Mr. John Campbell
regretted that the learned Lord should have introduced this Bill; for the general adoption of the compulsory system of relief, would work much more evil towards Scotland, than the operation of the disease itself. If once this system was introduced, it would never be got rid of. He knew, from his own experience, the extreme difficulties the heritors of many parishes had had to contend with to prevent the introduction of the Poor-laws into their parishes. There was not a single instance of the system ever having been resorted to by a parish, and afterwards having been got rid of. He trusted that the learned Lord would devise some other mode of raising funds for these purposes, and not impose almost as great a curse as could be inflicted upon their native country.

§ Mr. James E, Gordon
entirely concurred in the observations of his right hon. friend, respecting the evils which might fairly be anticipated from the operation of 405 this measure of the learned Lord. If ever this system was introduced, they would never get rid of the evil it entailed. He trusted that the learned Lord would consider the suggestion of his right hon. friend, as by a measure founded on the principle of that Act, he would be able to carry into effect as much as by the plan he now proposed, and without any of the evil consequences which would attend the proposed measure. The learned Lord had applied the same principle to Scotland as to England, without considering the difference of the circumstances of the two countries. There was another part of this measure objectionable—the necessity of resorting to the authority of the Privy Council, before the Act could be brought into operation. It must be obvious, that this could not be done without considerable delay, as there were several parts of Scotland from which it would he impossible to hear in less than a week. In case the disease should unhappily break out in other districts of Scotland, application ought to be made to some of the authorities in Edinburgh, for delay would negative all the good that could be expected from the plan.

§ Mr. Dixon
entered his protest against resorting to any system of compulsory relief, similar to the Poor-laws; as, in the country parts, the adoption of such a course would be attended with the greatest inconvenience. The learned Lord was desirous of making his measure palatable to the people of Scotland; but the principle of the present measure would be generally condemned. In very many parts of Scotland the most liberal subscriptions had been entered into, to meet any expenses that the case might require; and rather than resort to the system now proposed, the greatest sacrifices would be made.

§ Mr. Cumming Bruce
said, that those who were acquainted with the operation of the Poor-laws would confess that they were "more honoured in the breach than in the observance." It would not be necessary for his right hon. friend to call upon the English Members to stand by him, and prevent the introduction of this system into Scotland; for, on consideration, the learned Lord would himself see the expediency of withdrawing the present measure. The learned Lord had brought forward this Bill with the most humane motives, and solely with a view to the promotion of the public good; and he trusted, therefore, when the objections were pointed out to him in so strong a point of view, that he 406 would consent to re-consider the subject. The learned Lord was correct in calling this the old law of Scotland; but the expediency of applying it in this, or any other case, was more than doubtful. There had been meetings in many parishes in Scotland to consider the best mode of devising means to make provision, in case the disease should appear in them, and they had, with one accord, refused to avail themselves of the Poor-laws.

Mr. James Johnstone
protested against the general adoption of the principle of the measure of the learned Lord, but would not oppose the introduction of the Bill. It would not be advisable to have a compulsory assessment in this or any other case. The people of Scotland had come forward in the most liberal manner, and contributed most largely to funds for the relief of the poor and diseased. There was not a village in Scotland in which a liberal subscription had not been entered into; indeed, much more generally than in this great metropolis, which would go far to make the learned Lord's measure unnecessary.

Mr. Charles Grant
readily admitted the justice of many of the observations of the hon. Gentleman opposite, respecting the introduction of Poor-laws into Scotland; but, at the same time, every Gentleman in the House must feel that this was one of those extraordinary cases which required an immediate application, and every consideration must yield to consulting the preservation of the people. The suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, as well as that respecting the Privy Council, were well worthy of consideration. At the same time, he was sure that the House would give credit to the learned Lord for the most proper motives, in having originated this measure.