CHOLERA MORBUS—MEASURES OF PRECAUTION. (Hansard, 15 February 1832)

§ Sir William Rae
wished to know whether any provision had been made in this Bill relative to the expense incurred in the prevention of the disease in Scotland? As there were no parochial rates in that country, he did not see how the Bill could apply.

§ Lord Althorp
replied, that the provisions relating to the parochial and county rates would be so worded, with respect to Scotland, as to harmonize with the machinery in existence in that country. He was also willing, in compliance with the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet opposite, to omit that part of the clause which would throw the ultimate expense upon the county rates. He was willing also to consent that power should be granted to the Privy Council to reimburse parishes that were greatly distressed, when they had been at an expenditure for the preservation of the public health which they might be unable to afford.

Sir Robert Peel
expressed his concurrence in the communication now made by the noble Lord; but he thought the Privy Council ought not to be restricted exactly in the manner pointed out, viz., rendering assistance to distressed districts only; for he would have the Council authorised to purchase buildings for the purpose of temporary hospitals, in which Cholera patients should be treated; and other powers should also be given, which the Privy Council considered likely to prevent the spread of the disease.

Mr. Warburton
urged the policy of spending liberally at the outset, as likely to be the most prudential course in the end, even on principles of rational economy.

Mr. Cutlar Fergusson
thought that Government should at once advance loans of money to such parishes as stood in need of pecuniary assistance.

§ Sir Henry Hardinge
said, that some provision ought to be made concerning those married soldiers who slept from the barracks. There were from 150 to 200 married men in each of the regiments of the Guards, many of whom were living in Spitalfields and Bethnal-green. Now, these soldiers had every day to appear at the parade, and, if the Cholera were to be in the neighbourhood in which they resided, some risk was run of their bringing it to the barracks. He had heard, on his way to the House, a report, which he certainly could scarcely credit, that, in order to remove the married men from London, 386 they were to be taken from the four battalions now here, and sent to Windsor. He hoped, however, that no such proposition was to be carried into effect. He would suggest that a sum of money, at the rate of about 1l. a man, which would not amount to more than 600l. or 700l. a month, should be advanced to have quarters furnished for the married men of the different regiments. This was a course which would avoid the risk of communicating the infection, should the disease unhappily prevail in that part of the metropolis which he had named.

Sir James Graham
said, that the subject alluded to by the hon. and gallant Member had not escaped the notice of his Majesty's Ministers. He had had an interview that morning with the Commander-in-Chief, and he could assure the hon. Baronet that no such plan as that which he had named, as to the removal of the married men belonging to the regiments of Guards now in the metropolis to Windsor, was contemplated. There was, however, a plan very much in conformity with that now suggested by the hon. Baronet, as to the married soldiers being removed from those private quarters, under consideration. Another proposition had been made to hire some public buildings for the soldiers who were in quarters, and appropriate them as barracks.

Colonel Davies
concurred with what had been said by the right hon. and gallant officer; and he also thought that money should be advanced to parishes, as suggested by the hon. member for Kirkcudbright.

§ Mr. Hunt
said, that the poor weavers of Spitalfields would think themselves well off, with nothing but the additional money which the hon. and gallant officer had proposed to give the married soldier. He feared that the whole earnings of many families did not amount to 1l. a month. Something ought to be done to relieve the distress of the people as well as the distresses of the soldier.

Sir Robert Peel
said, that the object of the Bill now under discussion was to afford seasonable relief to all who were distressed, therefore, the extraordinary powers with which the Privy Council were invested would, of course, apply to the Guards in common with the remainder of the community.

§ Sir James Malcolm
said, he had unhappily seen much of the dreadful malady called Cholera Morbus, while serving in India, and, therefore, he trusted, he should 387 be excused for trespassing upon the Committee for a few minutes. He Legged leave to say, that he had commanded an army of several thousand men in provinces which were never entirely free from that fatal pestilence, for a series of years. He had often and often traversed these provinces in the performance of his public duties, and had invariably found the Cholera to be locally infectious. Such corps as had the misfortune to pass the infected lines, inevitably lost 40 or 50 men by the disease, while not one individual in any of the other corps had suffered from it. He had uniformly observed that the assembling together of crowds of people materially contributed to its progress, and predisposed the constitution to receive it. His policy, therefore, had been, as much as possible, to prevent bodies of people from coming together, and he had consequently, in some cases, interdicted fairs and such assemblages of the people as were found, by experience, to conduce to its extension. The disease prevalent in England at present, he believed, did not correspond in every particular with the Cholera of the East, but it was to be feared that it possessed but too many features in common with that pestilence. The House, at all events, had not been wanting to its duty; he, as well as every other Member of it, would put confidence in Government, and support it in the exercise of extraordinary powers in this great cause of suffering humanity. The less the public mind was alarmed the better, and certainly the timid ought to remember that it was fully proved by official documents that this formidable malady was not so fatal in its general operation as many other diseases to which every one was liable. His plan in the East had been to keep the ravages of the disease, as much a secret as possible; and he had consequently prohibited every soldier from mentioning the very name of Cholera, though they were much inclined to make it a topic of conversation. He wished the physicians to conceal most of the cases, but that system, he apprehended, would not be practicable here. Wherever the Cholera made its appearance, all other complaints were ascribed to it, and thus it became more terrible in name than it really proved to be in effect.

§ Sir Henry Hardinge
said, in what he had stated he never meant that the pay of a married soldier should be raised, which would operate as a bounty to soldiers to take wives; his only object was, that relief 388 should be afforded such as the peculiar circumstances of the case demanded.

Colonel Wood
observed, that a good deal having been said in favour of the married soldier, he wished to say a few words for the unmarried soldier. The Guards in Knightsbridge barracks were packed much too closely. The gallant General (Sir John Malcolm) had said, that in India every precaution which he could take were used to prevent crowds from assembling together, The Guards in the barracks at Knighstbridge were in rooms (without meaning to cast any reflection upon Government) which it was disgraceful to the country to permit. In one room, which had been actually the hay-loft of the Grenadier-horse, 100 soldiers were now crowded together. He believed the room had no plaster round the sides, and no ceiling. The air was so foul that a candle would hardly burn in it. If the Cholera were to break out there, he was persuaded it would run through the whole of the people like wildfire. He thought it the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to diminish the number of soldiers in the rooms where they were so crowded, by hiring other buildings, and having them occupied as barracks.

Colonel Evans
regretted to hear so many hon. Gentlemen speaking of the Cholera as a highly contagious disease, and he thought that restrictions with such measures as the Bill now before them would increase rather than diminish the alarm which existed in the country.

An Hon. Member
stated, that he had suffered, last autumn, from a severe attack of Cholera—whether the Asiatic disease or not he could not determine—from which he underwent extreme pain for eight hours. He was inclined to believe, from that circumstance, that the disease had prevailed in this country for many months, and that unnecessary alarm was excited respecting the malignity of the Cholera.

§ Sir William Rae
thought, that Scotland if it were to be included in this Bill, had had some reason to complain that it had not been brought in at an earlier period. Delay was much to be avoided, and, it should be remembered that the method of levying local rates was different in Scotland from the method of levying those rates in England. The Privy Council had sent down certain orders to Edinburgh, and it was most, necessary, with a view to the safety of the inhabitants, that these orders should be obeyed; but it turned out that 389 many of these orders were contrary to the existing law, and consequently there was no power for enforcing them. The Act of the Legislature was necessary to confer that authority, and it ought to have been conferred before now.

The Lord Advocate
said, that all the Council were most eagerly anxious to provide a remedy against the spreading of the disease in Edinburgh, and to provide that remedy as speedily as possible; but he knew of no means of carrying into effect the object they had in view but that of providing funds, by giving authority for compulsory assessments, and to that course he understood a long, a severe, and a protracted opposition would be offered.

Mr. Cutlar Fergusson
said, that he was sorry to hear of any obstacles to such a course. He should rather consent to grant authority for compulsory assessments in Scotland, than leave the authorities without the means of carrying into effect the orders of the Privy Council.

§ Lord Althorp
said, that it would be useless to give the Magistrates of Scotland the authority to carry into effect the orders of the Privy Council, without the means were at the same time placed in their hands. The bill upon that subject was not yet introduced, and he recommended that the subject of it should not be discussed till it was presented to their notice.

Mr. Warburton
deprecated the course which the gallant Officer near him had recommended. If the publication of what was said on this subject was forbidden, the alarm would become truly terrific, and the most evil consequences would result from it.

Mr. Hume
wished to take that opportunity of calling the attention of the House and of the public to the evil of collecting large bodies of persons together in a small room at a time like the present. For fourteen or fifteen hundred persons to meet in a small room was a most imprudent thing, and might be the means of spreading infection very extensively.

§ Sir William Rae
asked when the Bill relating to the Cholera in Scotland would be introduced?

The Lord Advocate
said, he should be ready to introduce his Bill respecting Scotland this evening.

§ Sir William Rae
wished that the Government would take measures to bring in the Bill as speedily as possible; because the Ministers must, know as well as he did, that the letter of the law, as it now existed, had been found not to warrant the 390 orders they had sent down to Edinburgh, and that several persons had, on that account, resisted the orders, and refused to remove the nuisances.

§ Mr. Hunt
again alluded to the subject of the distress and wretchedness prevailing in Bethnal-green and Spitalfields. Such persons only as were poor and wretched would be likely to come under the penal provisions of this clause, and he, therefore, must express a hope that the Government would assist the people where the distress he had alluded to prevailed, and where the parish funds were too small to enable them to assist themselves. He had that day had a deputation to wait on him from Spitalfields, and the members of that stated, that, the poor-house, which was only calculated to hold 600 people had at present actually upwards of 1,100. The paupers were lying six in a bed; there were forty patients labouring under the typhus fever and no distinct apartment to separate them from other paupers. The parish was so much in debt that the trades-people hesitated to supply the paupers with food. That parish, therefore, was quite unable to meet any additional expenses.

§ Lord Althorp
said, that a Gentleman had been sent to inquire into the condition of the poor in Spitalfields, and that it was the intention of the Government to see what assistance could be rendered them.

Mr. Warburton
asked, if any means of disinfection had been adopted by the Central Board of Health. The present practice of sprinkling vinegar was disagreeable and useless. Another method was, that which had been discovered by Dr. Henry, of Manchester. It was established by the experiments of that gentleman, that by exposing substances to a heat of 200 degrees, they might be completely disinfected. He had tried experiments by impregnating substances with the infectious matter of scarlet and typhus fevers, and of the small-pox, and had invariably found that heat destroyed the infecting power.

§ Mr. Poulett Thomson
said, the statements of Dr. Henry on this subject had been referred to the Board of Health; and the gentleman who attended there on his behalf was told that if he would construct his apparatus, and exhibit its effects before the Board, every attention would be paid to the subject. Dr. Henry, or at least the 391 gentleman who acted on his behalf, had not been prepared to incur an expense of three or four pounds for that purpose; and he thought, that he could not recommend the Board to incur that expense for that would be furnishing a precedent for similar proceedings hereafter, and the Board would be called upon to defray the expenses of all the experiments to be made by all other persons who were desirous of submitting their opinions on that or any other matters of science to the Board.

Mr. Hume
said, it appeared to him, that if ever there was an instance in which the Board ought to have assisted any person in the expense of experiments, it was this one. He was aware, that the consequence of doing so in one case would be, that the right hon. Gentleman would be pestered with applications for advances for experiments; but Dr. Henry stood before the public with all the recommendations of a well-established character. He was a man of undoubted talents, and of great skill as a chemist. The country certainly was reduced to the adoption of a curious economy, when sinecure offices of five guineas a day were made, and three or four pounds for an experiment that might secure a great public benefit were refused.

§ Lord Althorp
said, that the objection to the advance of the money was that which had been already stated. The Ministers were aware that Dr. Henry was a man of scientific attainments, and he was not likely to propose any experiment without strong grounds for believing that it would be successful; but then the hon. Member must recollect that all persons were not like Dr. Henry, and there were many persons who would propose that the Government should incur the expense of experiments that were not likely to be useful. The Government, should it once admit the principle of making advances for experiments, would find it difficult to say to any man before the experiment were made, that he was a man without character, that his labours would be valueless, and therefore they could not with respect to him, go into the expenditure of even a small sum of money.

Mr. Warburton
said, that there was in his opinion, a marked difference between this case and others of the kind referred to by the noble Lord. In this case the experiments had been made, those experiments had been published; the result, therefore, already known and ascertained, had proved that his plan, if adopted, must be successful. All Dr. Henry wished was, that 392 his experiments on the disinfecting power of hot air should be fairly tried, the expense of the apparatus being all that it was necessary to incur.

§ Mr. Briscoe
understood, from the remark made by the right hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, that the expense of an apparatus on Dr. Henry's plan, would not exceed 5l. He begged leave, therefore, to suggest the propriety of every parish being compelled to provide itself with such an apparatus.

§ Mr. Briscoe
moved, in order to mark and acknowledge the visitations and power of Divine Providence, the insertion of the words, "Whereas it hath pleased Almighty God to visit the United Kingdom with the disease called the Cholera, or Spasmodic or Indian Cholera; and whereas, with a view to prevent, as far as may be possible, by the Divine blessing, the spreading of the said disease."

§ Lord Althorp
said, that he would not oppose the motion now it was made, but he thought it would have been better that it had not been made.

Mr. Hume
said, that he would oppose the motion; no reason could be assigned for the introduction of such words that would not apply to every Act they had passed; as, without the aid of that Being through whom they lived and moved, no object whatever could be obtained. Why should they say the Cholera was a Divine infliction? They might as well declare that it was a Divine blessing. He thought hon. Members ought to be satisfied now that a fast was appointed. Let those who were impelled by religious feelings, devote that day to its destined object.

§ Mr. Hodges
hoped that the hon. Member for Surrey would not persevere in the Motion, as he thought such words should not be lightly used.

§ Lord Althorp
said, as there was a difference of opinion on the subject, rather than raise a debate on it, the hon. Member had better withdraw the Motion.

§ Mr. Lefroy
should lament to see the hon. Member withdraw a motion which he had brought forward with so much propriety. It was only recognising the Divine power, and, he trusted, it was not yet necessary that any Gentleman should apologize for proposing that.

Mr. Warburton
said, he thought that the hon. member for Surrey must perceive 393 from what had already taken place, the inconvenience which resulted from introducing questions like the present for discussion in that House. Indeed, upon such questions, Members of that House were scarcely free agents; because, if they opposed inconsiderate and ill-judged propositions, imputations would be thrown upon them. It was of no great importance whether the words should be inserted or not, but he objected to the introduction of them upon the general principle, and if no other Member would take the sense of the Committee upon the Motion, he would.

§ Mr. Shaw
considered the words peculiarly applicable, and hoped that the hon. Member would press the Motion. He thought it inconsistent in the hon. member for Middlesex to refer to the appointment of a fast day as a reason for not agreeing to the Motion, because the hon. Member and his friends did all they could to prevent a day of fast from being appointed.

Mr. Hume
said, that he was as much as ever opposed to the appointment of a fast day. He regretted that Ministers had been weak enough to agree to the proposition. It would augment the evil which it was intended to mitigate.

§ Lord Althorp
again expressed a hope that the hon. Member would not press his Motion. To have a division upon such a question, whether it should be carried or not, was a thing to be avoided. He felt it necessary to add, that the appointment of a day of fast was not a consequence of the Motion which had been made on that subject. The fast day would have been appointed if that Motion had never been brought forward.

§ Mr. Briscoe
said, he had not the slightest idea that there would have been a difference of opinion as to the propriety of his Motion. It was allowed, on all hands, that the Cholera was a disease which baffled human skill, and, therefore, it must be considered an infliction of Providence. Under all the circumstances of the case he would withdraw the Motion.