Sir James Grahamsaid, he should not find it necessary to trespass on the time of the Committee at any length by his present statement. In consequence of the dissolution of Parliament which took place last spring, it was necessary to bring the Estimates again before the House, and they had consequently been twice proposed and canvassed; and the present Estimates were merely the quarter Estimates of the entire sum voted for the whole year on the previous occasion. He had stated to the House, that he had been enabled by a balance which he found in the Exchequer at the end of the year 1830, to carry on the navy service until the 31st March of last year; and the object he had in view was, to effect the purpose which had lately been under discussion in that House— 279 namely, to make the financial year commence on the first of April. The balance which he found in the Exchequer last year was, 1,300,000l., and the balance in the Exchequer in the present year was about 80,000l. more. The only other observation he had to offer on the subject of these Estimates was, that, in consequence of this sum being applicable to the service generally, he had thought it right, the sum being large, to follow the precedent set in 1816 by Lord Bexley, then Mr. Vansittart, who, in consequence of the considerable amount of supplies voted in 1815, and the shortness of the war which ensued on Napoleon's return from Elba, found a balance in the Exchequer of 3,000,000l. Lord Bexley adhering, as he (Sir J. Graham) contended, to the very letter of the Appropriation Act, came down to the House, and stated, in the opening of his financial view for 1816, that that surplus of supplies was to be considered as Ways and Means, not applicable to the particular service for which it had been voted, but to the general service of the country. In bringing forward his budget, Lord Bexley found that the sum which he had calculated at 3,000,000l. turned out to be 5,000,000l., and he carried it to the Ways and Means. He had followed the same course. Having found a large balance in the Exchequer, and it having been the intention of Government to carry on the service for three months without applying to Parliament, he had thought it right to adhere strictly to this precedent. He, therefore, had considered the money as a balance of Ways and Means, and he came down to the House with three months' Estimates to obtain its sanction for the application of that balance to the general service. He was not aware that it would be necessary for him to go into further details on this subject. The supply voted last year had been more than sufficient to cover the expenditure; and only in two particulars had the Estimates been exceeded. The deficiency occurred under the head of timber and materials; the sum voted for which was, he believed, 810,000l., in addition to 69,000l. arising from the sale of old stores. The sum expended was 10,000l. beyond the sums voted; but it would be seen by the papers laid on the Table, that there was a surplus of 47,593l. for re-payments, under the head of timber and materials, which would more than cover the extra outlay. The other Estimate 280 in which a deficiency occurred was in the Victualling Estimate. It had been thought that 905,000l. would cover the whole expense; but, to his great surprise, he found that the outlay had greatly exceeded that sum; and that it would be necessary not only to take a vote for the year of 905,000l., but also a vote for this quarter of 60,000l., and he had every reason to believe that this further grant would coverall the debts contracted by former Governments. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving a resolution, that 32,000 men including 10,000 Royal Marines, be employed for the sea service for three months, commencing the 1st of January 1832.
§ Sir George Clerkhad no objection to the amount of the naval force which was required, nor did he think it any want of prudence to hand over the surplus supplies of last year upon the naval Estimates to the general service. He thought, however, that the right hon. Gentleman was mistaking the Ways and Means for the Supply, and the Supply for the Ways and Means. It was true, that in 1816 the sums voted for both army and navy were subsequently not found to be necessary, and the surplus was handed over to the general service; but Lord Bexley then stated, that these sums would come in aid of the Ways and Means to meet other votes which were agreed to by Parliament. Indeed, unless the Estimates for these important branches of the service were so framed as to leave an available balance with Government, there would be no Supply for the navy and army for several months in the year. The right hon. Gentleman could not hand anything over of the Ways and Means to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of which that noble Lord could avail himself for the general service, for the Estimates now brought in to meet the million nine hundred and odd thousand pounds which remained over from last year would exhaust it all, and he feared, without much attention to the particular items to which it was to be applied. The right hon. Gentleman said, that certain claims were to be met which would require the addition of 115,000l. in the Victualling Estimate, and he (Sir G. Clerk) should like to know what these claims were. The victualling balance was stated in the papers on the Table, and if the right hon. Gentleman meant to act upon principle he should also have inserted the naval balance, which he (Sir George Clerk) did 281 not perceive on the face of the accounts. The sea-pay due to ships on foreign stations should also have been set out in the statement produced, for that expense, amounting probably to half a million, would have to be defrayed upon the return of the ships to this country.
Sir James Graham,in answer to the question relative to the 115,000l., said, that sum would be necessary to cover the charges which could be made good against the Victualling Board up to the 1st of March next, and previous to the consolidation of that Board with another. It was considered most desirable that this account should be wholly liquidated, before the consolidation took place. With regard to the naval balance, it was, he could assure the hon. Baronet, to be found in the account laid before the House, at the bottom of the balance-sheet, and amounted in round numbers to about 1,200,000l. With respect to the provision necessary for naval pay and pensions, it would not be necessary to call for it till about the month of April, when the general Estimates would be fully before the House.
§ Sir George Clerksaid, if the principle on which the right hon. Gentleman was proceeding was a sound and good one, it should be equally applied to the Naval as to the Victualling Board.
Sir James Grahamsaid, it was so, although it appeared to have escaped the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. He would take that opportunity to state, that another alteration had been made relating to payments. It had been usual to pay all demands on the Navy and Victualling Boards, by bills at sixty days sight. They proposed, in future, to substitute prompt payment, which would very much facilitate making up the accounts correctly to any given period.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, that with regard to the contracts made for the early part of the year, the principle of the right hon. Baronet would not apply, and such contracts must be made without the sanction of Parliament. He had long thought of the plan of the right hon. Baronet, and wished to facilitate it, but found the difficulties too great to hazard the alteration. Whether it would produce any saving to the public, he knew not; but it would certainly afford great convenience in keeping and examining the public accounts. He saw no objection to granting this vote of 282 the quarter in advance, and then every year would hereafter stand upon its own merits. But it would be necessary for the right hon. Baronet to include the amount of the wages due to ships at sea. He approved of the change from payment by bills to prompt payment; but, in that case, too, it would be necessary to remember the sums, which being due abroad, could not be liquidated within the year.
Mr. Humethought, that the present was an improved method of doing business, and he expected beneficial results from the alteration. He was surprised, however, at the same number of men being kept up, for he thought that a considerable number were to be discharged on account of the transference of the Coast Guard duty to the Custom-house. This arrangement would, of course, throw an additional expense on the Custom-house; and if there were to be no corresponding reduction in the navy, the expense would, in fact, be increased.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the Coast Guard would, under the new system, cost little more than half what it cost under the old. He might also mention, that there were several ships on their way home to be paid off; but this, though it would decrease the expense eventually, would require a considerable sum for the moment.
§ Sir George Clerkthought it would be right to have on the Table a return of the expense of the Coast Blockade. He had moved for it some days ago, for he thought that there was no great reduction of expense under that head.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the Estimates referred to were preparing, and he thought he should be able to lay them on the Table in the course of the present week.
Mr. Herriesthought that there had been a greater introduction of foreign goods under the new than under the old system.
§ Mr. Spring Ricethought that, if smuggling took place, it was not, at all events, of manufactured articles; nor could any increase that might have taken place be attributed to the alteration of the system.
§ Mr. Robinsonsaid, he had no doubt that smuggling had been carried on to an immense extent, and even the illicit importation of manufactured goods was enormous. That was evident from the case which had recently been discovered in the City, and also from the quantity seen in every large house in the country, which was greater 283 far than it ought to be, when compared with the trifling amount of import duties paid into the Custom-house. Nothing could keep out smuggled French goods, so long as they were to be admitted at any rate of duty whatever, for those that had paid duty protected those that had not.
Vote agreed to.
The following sums were also voted:—270,400l. for the wages of 32,000 seamen and marines until March 31; 18,000l. for wages to officers and men on board vessels in ordinary; 9,817l. 7s. 9d. for salaries to officers, and contingent expenses, of the Admiralty office.
On 7,939l. 3s. 1d. for salaries of officers, and contingent expenses, of the Navy Pay-office, being moved,
§ Mr. Crokerexpressed a hope that the right hon. Baronet would pay strict attention to prevent the undue increase of superannuations and pensions, which, he feared was consequent upon the alterations he meant to propose.
Sir James Grahamsaid, the subject had attracted his attention, and he should take every opportunity of endeavouring to reduce them.
§ Sir George Clerkwas anxious to know why it was that the first clerk in the Navy Pay-office had had his salary increased from 600l. to 800l. per annum? He had no doubt but there was sufficient reason for it, but he was desirous of knowing what it was.
Mr. Robert Gordonsuggested that the offices of Treasurer of the Navy, Paymaster of the Forces, and Treasurer of the Board of Ordnance, ought to be united in one and the same person. His Majesty's Ministers, on coming into office, expressed their intention to introduce a measure to that effect, and he now wished to know whether they still meant to do so?
Sir James Grahamsaid, that such a measure was in contemplation, and it was intended to remove all executive duties from the office of Treasurer of the Navy.
Vote agreed to.
The following sums were then voted:—12,032l. 13s. 2d. to defray the expenses of the Navy Office.
5,268l. to defray the expenses of the Scientific Department of the Navy.
On the sum of 20,581l., for the contingent expenses and salaries of officers employed in the dock-yards, being proposed,
§ Sir George Clerksaid, he saw by the details, that the right hon. Baronet had found the necessity of replacing several officers whose situations last year, he thought could be dispensed with. He, therefore, hoped that the persons who had previously held these appointments had been replaced.
Mr. Humesaid, a rule was adopted last year, to fill up all offices with persons in the receipt of half-pay, so as to diminish the dead weight. He trusted there had been no evasion of that rule.
Sir James Grahamcertainly not; where-ever it was practicable to find officers on half-pay, competent to perform the duties of a situation, they were preferred.
Mr. Humefound the rope-yard had been removed from Woolwich. He hoped it was not intended to establish another elsewhere.
Sir James Grahamreplied, it was not; for the rope manufacturers in the other arsenals would be able to supply all that was required.
Vote agreed to; as were the votes for 4,683l. for expenses of dock-yards abroad. 154,200l. for the purchase of timber for the repair of ships, was then proposed
Captain Yorkesaid, he hoped no more timber calculated for line-of-battle ships only would be purchased, as he thought we had a sufficient number of that class; and from the progress making in steam navigation, it was probable, in the event of any future war, vessels impelled by steam would, in a great measure, supersede all others.
§ Sir George Clerksaid, he understood the practice was again resorted to of building vessels for the public service in private establishments. That practice had heretofore been a bad one, for the vessels so built were always the most expensive, and ineffective, from being built of unseasoned timber. It had been resorted to during the war from necessity, but now, when the workmen were being discharged from the public dock-yards, he regretted to hear, that recourse was had to building by private contract.
Sir James Grahamsaid, there certainly were four small vessels building by private contract, and he had entered into these contracts advisedly, knowing all the circumstances alluded to by the right hon. Baronet. His object was, to ascertain precisely what was the cost of building in private dock-yards compared with build- 285 ing in public, and also the comparative quality of each vessel. The fairest trial would be allowed, and he trusted the result would show practically whether it was advisable to continue the present number of shipwrights in the public establishment.
Vote agreed to.
The next Motion was 17,500l. to defray the charge for the repairs and improvements of his Majesty's dock-yards.
§ Mr. Leadersaid, he saw with much regret that the naval establishment at the Cove of Cork was utterly neglected, and that the naval force on that station was reduced to insignificance while there were no Supplies even kept for those ships that remained.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that there was now a larger squadron on the coast of Ireland than there had been for the last five years, and he assured the hon. Gentleman the buildings he had alluded to were properly taken care of, and that there was a sufficient supply of such stores as were required.
Vote agreed to.
12,033l. for pilotage and other contingencies, and 5,188l. to defray the charge of the Transport Establishment for the Naval and Victualling Department, were also voted.
On the Motion for granting 4,063l. for the hire of packets,
Mr. Humesuggested, that the department ought to be abolished, and its duties transferred to the Post-office. In time of war there might be some excuse for conveying the mails in armed vessels, but there was not the least necessity for that practice at present.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that if his hon. friend would allow the vote to pass on the present occasion, he would take an early opportunity of laying on the Table the Report of Sir Pulteney Malcolm upon the subject. That gallant Officer had been specially appointed to make inquiries respecting it.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, it appeared, from the 22nd section of the Finance Report, that a sum of 300,000l. was expended beyond what was necessary, by employing King's ships instead of hiring vessels to convey the mails.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the progress of steam navigation had entirely altered the circumstances alluded to by his hon. friend, and made other arrangements 286 necessary. The noble Duke at the head of the Post-office Department was particularly directing his attention to ascertain the most improved and economical method of conducting the business of his department.
Sir Robert Batesonstated, that he had heard great complaints in Ireland of the false economy pursued by Government with respect to the packets employed in carrying the mail between Dublin and Holyhead. He had the authority of a captain of one of those vessels for stating that the expenses were so paired and cut down by the Government, that the establishment had been rendered comparatively ineffective.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, the packets on the Irish station were in as effective a state as at any former period.
§ Mr. Shawbelieved, that the transmission of the mail between Holyhead and Dublin had been more irregular within the last six months than was ever known before.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that there had been an unusual prevalence of contrary winds, which prevented the Holyhead packets from making their passages with the same regularity as at other times. A minute inquiry, however, had been instituted by the noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government, and the result of the inquiry was, that the Government packets from Holyhead had been more regular in their voyages than the packets on the Liverpool station.
Mr. Goulburndid not think the fact stated by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland afforded any answer to the objection that the Holyhead packets were not well found. No doubt the shorter the voyage the more regular must be the passage, and, therefore, the comparative regularity of the Holyhead packets proved nothing.
§ Mr. Spring Riceassured the Committee that, though the Government was most anxious to economize, there was no disposition to carry the principle so far as to impede or diminish the facility of communication between England and Ireland.
§ Colonel Frenchsaid, he had been assured by the captain of one of the Holyhead packets, that his crew was so much reduced, that if he had two anchors down in consequence of bad weather, he should be compelled to let one of them remain, or lose it entirely, if his vessel was wanted in a hurry. It was bad economy to make the packets unsafe.
287 Vote agreed to.
The next question was, that the sum of 192,800l. should be voted to his Majesty, for the half-pay of naval and marine officers up to the 31st March, 1832.
Mr. Humethought, that the system of naval promotion really deserved more consideration from the House of Commons than it had hitherto obtained. A sum of nearly 1,000,000l. a-year was paid, under the name of half-pay, to naval Officers; and, in time of peace, there were frequent promotions of Lieutenants, Captains, and Commanders, by which all the savings made by the economical arrangements introduced in other branches of the service were swallowed up. It appeared from the official returns that, whilst there were only 600 naval Officers in active service, there were about 5,000 on half-pay and unemployed, which was a proportion of nearly nine to one.
Sir James Grahamthought the Committee would agree with him that the most rigid principle of economy had been adopted with regard to naval promotions. Unless the House should decide, that promotion ought to cease altogether, and that the spirit of the navy, on which the strength and safety of the country mainly depended, should be broken, he did not know how a more rigid principle could be carried into effect than that now acted upon. The rule laid down by the late Board of Admiralty, and which he had, therefore, the less reluctance in adverting to approvingly, was, that there should be no more than one promotion to three deaths. The effect of acting on this rule was, to diminish the amount of the half-pay list, within a short period, to the amount of 20,000l. and he did not see how the system of economy could be carried further in this branch of the expenditure, without injury to the service.
Mr. Humeadmitted it might seem hard, but he was one of those who thought that, as the public interest required, promotions should cease during peace—[cries of "no! no!" from both sides of the House.] He knew that many hon. Members had connections in the navy, and would oppose the principle for which he contended. The system adopted in the British navy was most anomalous. If there were a certain number of places to be filled up, promotions might go on to such an extent; but the evil was, that there was no limit to the number of officers promoted, for the whole was 288 subject to the discretion of the First Lord of the Admiralty. The right hon. Baronet talked of "keeping up the spirit of the navy," and how was it kept up by the present system? One officer was promoted for the sake of bringing in another, who was also an expense to the country, and had no services to plead. This was what he (Mr. Hume) called damping the spirit of the navy, and he knew it was anything but satisfactory to some of the oldest and best officers, many of whom were put aside, whilst men were brought forward of less distinction and less experience, because they were sustained by parliamentary or family interest. He had always thought, and his opinion was unaltered, that it was a monstrous thing to keep up a war establishment and war promotion in time of peace. He hoped Parliament would see the necessity of abandoning such a system, and that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would not find money to enable him to carry it on. When the noble Lord came down, and stated that he had not a shilling to go on with, Parliament would find it absolutely necessary to depart from the present system. In the mean time, unpleasant as it might be to some ears, he (Mr. Hume) did not hesitate to declare, that it was his opinion that promotion should stop when the revenue of the country required it.
Mr. Robert Gordonwas most anxious for economy in every branch of the expenditure, but he could not unite with his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, in wishing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not have a shilling to go on with, and felt called upon to state fairly, that he thought the scale of naval promotions could not be further diminished without injury to the service. It must be desirable to have a proportion of young men brought forward, and to have but one promoted for three vacancies was as little as could be required. The right hon. Baronet had admitted there was merit due to the late Admiralty for adopting this rule, and he might have gone further, and said, they had not broken through their own rule in leaving office, although that had been the practice with former Administrations.
§ Sir George Cockburnfelt himself called upon to notice the accusation which the hon. member for Middlesex had made, both, against the late and the 289 present Board of Admiralty, when he stated, that promotions were generally made in reference to parliamentary and family influence. His connection with the navy enabled him to state, that much the larger proportion of the promotions in that service had reference to the length of employment without regard to family influence. He had always contended that it was necessary, in order to sustain the spirit and character of the navy, that some individuals should be promoted upon the ground of interest and family connection. To that opinion he still adhered; but he challenged the hon. member for Middlesex (who was in possession of returns showing the number of officers promoted for service, as distinguished from those promoted by interest) to point out any year in which the largest number of promotions was not for service. He believed that the officers of the navy were generally well content that a certain number of persons should be promoted with reference to their family connections; and he was satisfied, that promotion could not be brought lower without injury to the service. The suggestion of the hon. member for Middlesex to stop promotion, might do very well if the hon. Member could give an assurance that this country should always be at peace. The House should never forget, however, that in peace the country must be prepared for war.
§ Mr. Huntsaid, he was one of those who thought that England, with a good navy, might set the world at defiance; but, at the same time, he agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that it was not necessary to have so many officers unemployed, and to go on increasing the number of them. There could be no doubt whatever, that the greater proportion of those whose names appeared in the list owed their promotion to patronage, and had no pretensions, from the length or importance of their services, to be placed there. He was, therefore, astonished at the assertion made by the hon. and gallant Officer who spoke last, that promotion in the Navy was always the result of long service; for he had frequently met old naval Officers who complained that they had not been promoted, because they had no parliamentary interest. It was notorious that such was the feeling abroad, and, whether well or ill founded, it was prejudicial to the Navy.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, the hon. member for Preston had misunderstood his hon. and 290 gallant friend (Sir George Cockburn). His hon. and gallant friend had not stated that promotions had always reference to length of service, but that the greater number of promotions were made upon that principle. In corroboration of that statement, he might be allowed to mention a fact. At the close of the war in 1815, a promotion of 1,500 naval Officers was made, and he could pledge himself, that it had been made without the slightest reference to parliamentary or other influence. The service-books were gone through, and this extensive promotion took place with reference to nothing but the merits of the individuals promoted.
§ Mr. Huntmerely wished to remark, that what the right hon. Member asserted clearly proved what he had stated to be the fact, for if those officers who had been promoted at the conclusion of the war had been brought forward in their turns during the war, instead of so many young men being promoted, who had no services to claim, but who were brought forward through patronage and influence, there would not have been so many meritorious officers to promote, and the half-pay list would not have been quite so large as at present.
Vote agreed to.
The sums of 72,605l. for pensions to naval Officers, their widows and relatives, up to the 31st March, and of 1,300l. bounty to chaplains, for the same period, were voted.
On the resolution that 65,000l. be granted to the Out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital
Mr. Humerose to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether it was his intention to introduce a bill, of which notice had been given, for abolishing the tax imposed upon the commercial marine for the support of Greenwich Hospital?
Sir James Grahamreplied that, in the present state of the revenue, and of the funds of Greenwich Hospital, he could not consent to such a measure, and had, therefore, resolved to oppose the bill, of which his hon. friend, the member for Newcastle, had given notice.
§ Sir Matthew White Ridleysaid, it was his intention to persevere in bringing in the bill of which he had given notice, and he still hoped to be able to persuade the Government and the House that the measure was deserving of their support.
§ Mr. Robinsonthought it but fair to observe, that he had altered his opinion on 291 this subject: he had been convinced, from actual observation and inquiry, that merchant-seamen received incidentally great advantages from the establishment at Greenwich Hospital.
In answer to a question from Sir Richard Vyvyan,
Sir James Grahamsaid, that it was in contemplation to dispose of a portion of the Derwent-water estate, belonging to Greenwich Hospital, which, it was hoped, would have the effect of increasing the funds of that establishment.
Resolution agreed to.
The sum of 37,629l. was proposed to defray the charge of superannuations to the civil Officers of the Navy.
Mr. Humebegged to ask the hon. Baronet, whether the superannuation granted to the late Comptroller of the navy for his civil services was in addition to his half-pay as an admiral.
Mr. Hume"Then I say, it is a very great abuse." The example of giving compensation to particular individuals for civil services, in addition to their half pay, was most pernicious, and the practice ought to be wholly discontinued. Here was the case of an officer who had been employed some years at the Navy Board, receiving a large pension for his services, while others, employed as long in foreign and unhealthy climates, had no such compensation allowed.
Sir James Grahamfully agreed with the hon. Member in regard to superannuations for civil services, but the regulation could only be prospective, because many individuals had entered the service under the positive assurance that, after a certain period of civil services, they were to receive an allowance, in addition to their half-pay; and if a different principle was now applied to them, it would be a breach of public faith. As to the merits of this particular question, the gallant Officer alluded to, had applied all his time and talents to perform the duties of his civil situation, and had probably thereby lost many opportunities of distinguishing himself, and acquiring fame and renown in the profession of which he was an ornament.
Mr. Humebelieved the whole of the gallant Officer's civil services had been performed during peace. He thought that was a sufficient answer to the flourish of the right hon. Baronet. He wished that the part of the Act regarding superannua- 292 tions which authorized allowances being given in cases of this description, or which directed that any person should receive one third of the whole amount of salary in retirement after fifteen years' service, should be pointed out to him.
Sir James Grahamsaid, there were two Acts which referred to superannuation allowances, one of which granted higher pensions in retirement than the other, both of which had been brought under the view of the Admiralty on the present question, and on the best consideration they could give the case, they conceived that the gallant Officer was entitled to be put on the higher scale. But the case was before the House, and he had no doubt they would do it strict justice.
§ Mr. Huntknew it was unpopular in that House to oppose a vote of that kind, but he felt it necessary to say, that he fully concurred with the hon. member for Middlesex, and he was persuaded they had only to give the Ministers rope enough, and they would soon hang themselves.
Vote agreed to.
31,400l. was voted for freight, &c., on account of the Army and Ordnance Departments.
22,135l. for the expense of sending convicts to New South Wales.
150,800l. for victualling 32,000 men up to the 31st of March.
7,512l. for the salaries of the Officers, and contingent expenses of the Victualling Department.
15,838l. for the salaries of the officers and workmen in the victualling yard.
6,044l. for the pay of officers in the Medical Establishments.
7,500l. for the expense of medical stores and hospital provisions.
7,902l. for the wages of officers and men on board vessels in ordinary.
300l. for conveyance of passengers and stores on account of the Colonial Department.
180l. as bounty for the capture and destruction of piratical vessels.
2,139l. 9s. for provisions for the yard service afloat were granted without remark.
Upon the proposition that a sum not exceeding 52,000l. should be voted for carrying on certain works at the Naval Arsenal at Plymouth.
Mr. Humerose to inquire whether it was still intended to go on with the erection of machinery for brewing and baking, which was purchased at so much expense 293 to the public, and was now found to be of no use.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the contract for furnishing the machinery was made with Mr. Rennie before he (Sir J. G.) came into office, and upon consideration it was thought better to proceed with the machinery, though it was not thought expedient to use it at present. The expense would be about 42,000l. The brewhouse and bakehouse would be a most valuable addition to the naval arsenal in the event of a war, but he (Sir James Graham) left it for the Committee to determine how far it had been judicious in the Victualling Board to enter into a private contract for the machinery with the brother, and, as he believed, the partner, of the Superintendent of the Works.
Mr. Humesaid, he always understood the Victualling Board acted under the superintendence of the Admiralty; but, it appeared by what the right hon. Baronet had said, that Board had made a private contract under very suspicious circumstances, relating to machinery, which was of no present use. He thought it was likely there had been a great waste of the public money, and, he was sure the individuals making private contracts, which were so much reprobated, had forfeited all claims upon the public.
§ Mr. Huntobserved, that a sum of money had been laid out for the partly setting up certain machinery, which the right hon. Baronet said was of no use, nevertheless the right hon. Baronet had completed it. He wished, therefore, to be informed why he had not sold it for what it was worth, rather than have expended more money in finishing it.
Sir James Grahamsaid, when this machinery was erected, it was intended to use it immediately, but it was found unnecessary, since he came into office; but a great part of it having been already prepared, and the buildings for it erected, it was thought most adviseable to complete it, if it was only to preserve it. He had already stated, he had no doubt it would be useful hereafter, but the question was, whether it was right to expend so much money at the time, and upon a private contract.
§ Sir George Clerkwas glad to hear this explanation, for it now fully appeared the machinery was ordered before the right hon. Baronet had entered office, and that the contract was made without the 294 knowledge of the Admiralty by the Victualling Board. But the right hon. Baronet's charge had now assumed another shape, and he complained of the outlay of the money at an improper time, and that it was done by private contract. In answer to the first part of the charge, the right hon. Baronet had allowed it would be useful in the event of a war, and as there was no knowing how soon that might arrive, he (Sir George Clerk) thought it was right to be prepared for it, and he trusted the House would be of the same opinion. With regard to the private contract part of the charge, the machinery for baking was a recent invention, and, therefore, only to be executed by certain parties; and he took that to be a full reply to the objection made on that account. With regard to the brew-house, at the time the machinery was ordered, it was expected it would be wanted; for good stout beer was considered a much more wholesome beverage for ships' crews than ardent spirits. The circumstances of the case, with regard to the building were simply these: the premises where part of the public brewing was previously carried on, were held upon a lease, determinable on the demise of his late Majesty, and as the proprietor of the ground on whose land the house was situated, declined to renew the lease, it had become his duty to bring forward a new estimate on the subject. In the then state of the country, it was considered necessary to erect this brew-house; and, at the time when the work was undertaken, the machinery was intended to be brought into operation as soon as the building should be ready for its reception. Certainly, by a change in the system which the right hon. Baronet introduced last year, and which he had at that time strongly objected to; this brew-house had been rendered of no use. With regard to the baking machinery, it would bake sufficient biscuit to supply the whole of the seamen in the present state of our naval establishments. An exception had always been made as to biscuit which had never been furnished by contract, because it was impossible to procure it without adulteration, and of such good quality as would keep in all climates, unless it was manufactured in the public establishments. He trusted, from this explanation that the House would admit that, if ever the occasion arose for increasing our navy, the money which had been paid for the 295 construction of this machinery would be found to have been most beneficially expended.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that in every thing he had asserted on this subject, he had been careful to understate the case from a feeling of delicacy. He was perfectly ready to admit the evil had arisen from a vicious system, and not from the conduct of individuals. But as the right hon. Baronet had himself entered into the case, he had no hesitation in declaring that this transaction was, from the commencement, most irregular. First, a private contract or bargain was made; next, it was made with the partner and brother of the Superintendent of the Works; third, he had been misled as to the amount when he had first brought forward these Estimates. He had called upon the Victualling Board to state the entire sum which would be necessary for these works in the ensuing year; the reply was, "55,000l.," and a grant to that amount was, therefore, prepared. He was afterwards informed that a further sum of 42,000l. would be necessary for the purchase of machinery, which sum was quite independent of the contract. He again declared that this was altogether an irregular proceeding. They had been told that in case of war, these works would be useful. So they might, but, he begged to remind the House that the navy was victualled throughout the late war without them. It would be his duty to-morrow to bring the question on the remaining part of this sum more particularly under the notice of the House, and an opportunity would then be afforded for going through the whole of the transaction, from beginning to end. The Estimate laid on the Table was comparatively small considering the large outlay actually made upon these works, from sources not known to Parliament.
§ Sir George Clerksaid, that the brewing machinery being of no present use, was owing to one of the right hon. Baronet's own regulations, by which seamen were supplied with spirits instead of beer. As to his assertion, that the victualling of the navy was carried on, during the late war, without this machinery, the consequence was, that large and expensive contracts were necessary, and after all, a bad article, particularly bread, was obtained. It was in consequence of the repeated complaints that the biscuit supplied, would not keep 296 in foreign climates, and that unwholesome food was sometimes given to the sailors, while at other times a supply had to be obtained at any cost, that the machinery in question was erected.
§ Mr. Robinsonsaid, that the subject of this vote was attended with so much irregularity, that the House would not do its duty if it did not institute an inquiry, and obtain all possible information upon the circumstances. He felt it right, therefore, to move that the vote should be postponed.
Mr. Bernalthe Chairman, said, the hon. Member could not, according to the forms of the House, move the postponement of the vote. He could do no otherwise than either oppose it or agree to it.
§ Mr. Robinsonsaid, he did not wish to negative the vote directly.
§ Sir George Clerkexpressed his wish, that, since the Motion of the hon. member for Worcester could not be put, the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) would consent to withdraw the vote for the present, in order that the circumstances of the transaction might be minutely scrutinized. This was the more necessary, in consequence of the insinuations of corrupt dealings, which had been thrown out against the late Admiralty. He wished for the fullest inquiry, and, if any blame were found justly to attach to the late Board, he was quite willing to bear his share of it.
Sir James Grahamsaid, he had made no insinuations of corrupt dealings. The word corrupt had never escaped his lips. He had only said, what he would now adhere to—namely, that a private agreement had been made with a party who was the brother, and, he believed, the partner, of the Superintendent. As inquiry was courted, he should give an opportunity for it by withdrawing the vote for the present.
Lord Miltonsaid, there were two or three points that required explanation. He wished to know how it was, that a subordinate Board had made contracts without the knowledge of the superior? If they had a right to do so, according to the present custom, that ought to be abolished. Another point was, that it appeared these subordinate Boards thought they had a right to appropriate the money to other purposes, than those for which it was granted. For instance, if 20,000l. had been voted for one purpose, and the expense exceeded that sum, and 30,000l. 297 voted for another, the expense of which was less, was the overplus of the second applied to cover the deficiency of the first? If that was the practice, it was wrong. The overplus ought to be at the disposal of that House, and the deficiency duly applied for, or there was no effectual control over the expenditure of the public money.
Sir James Grahamsaid, the practices alluded to by the noble Lord, had been frequent. In one instance this misappropriation had gone to the extent of 500,000l.; it was, therefore, his intention to bring forward a measure to remedy such irregularities in future.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that after what the right hon. Baronet had stated, he should certainly not, under any circumstances, have agreed to this vote without ample inquiry. He had no knowledge whatever of the transaction, but he was fully convinced that the parties alluded to would be able to give complete satisfaction on the subject.