§ Viscount Palmerstonmoved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Greek Treaty Acts, with a view to bringing in a Bill "to enable his Majesty to carry into effect a Convention on the affairs of Greece."
Mr. Humeobjected to the Speaker's leaving the Chair on so short a notice, without some explanation of the grounds of the noble Lord's Motion, and of the object he proposed to accomplish by the Bill.
§ Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that the notice was given on Friday, and there could not be any further delay without great inconvenience. The object of his Motion was to enable the Government to complete the arrangements which it and the governments of France and Russia had entered into in February, 1830, for the final settlement of Greece as an independent monarchy. The Motion was, therefore, evidently not new in principle, and was a mere following up of the measure adopted by the Duke of Wellington's Administration. The House must recollect that, after much arduous and intricate negotiation, the three great Allied Powers had entered into a Convention, by which Greece was guaranteed an independent existence under the sovereignty of Prince Leopold, and had also agreed to guarantee that prince a loan of 60,000,000 francs, so as to enable him to assume and exercise the functions of the new monarchy with efficiency and dignity. The arrangements then entered into were not, as they all knew, completed, so that it became the duty of the Allied Powers to endeavour to prevent the mischievous consequences of their being abruptly suspended, and to bring them to a satisfactory conclusion with the least possible delay. Accordingly, negotiations were entered into anew, and, as the first and preliminary step towards that satisfactory conclusion, so much to be desired, was the selection of a proper person to fill the new throne, the choice fell upon Prince Otho of Bavaria, who accepted the sovereignty on the same conditions as those on which Prince Leopold had consented to undertake the monarchy—namely the guarantee of an outfit loan. The present Government, indeed, had no choice as to engaging in the guarantee with regard to the loan, for the previous stipulations on 1163 that subject had been made to the States of Greece, and not to Prince Leopold alone, so that they could not be annulled by the fact of his declining the sovereign authority. The terms, however, of the treaty by which this loan was guaranteed by the three Powers, differed somewhat from those which guaranteed Prince Leopold's; for besides being much more precisely and definitely binding on the Greek government, there were stipulations as to the mode in which it should be paid, that would in themselves be a guarantee against all permanent loss to the guaranteeing parties. It was, in the first place, stipulated, that the payment should be made at three comparatively distinct intervals or portions; and, in the next place, it was expressly stipulated that the very appropriation of the revenues of Greece should be the payment of the interest on the loan. Indeed, he had no doubt on his mind, that, in a very short time, the revenues of the new state would be so flourishing, that not only would the interest be paid punctually, but that there would be no need of the third, perhaps the second, instalment. He saw no reason, whatever, why Greece should not once more assume a proud station amongst the nations of the earth, and become one of the most flourishing, as it undoubtedly was one of the most favoured, territories on the face of the globe. Notwithstanding it had now been the scene of a ten years' barbarous and exterminating warfare, and a prey to all the ills of intestine commotion, and anarchy, and confusion, its revenues had improved, within the last year, and it required no very sanguine fancy to anticipate, from its maritime advantages and fruitfulness of soil, a commercial eminence, such as distinguished Venice and Genoa during the last brilliant days of Italian story. He must remind the House, that the occasion of Prince Leopold's refusal of the sovereignty of Greece was the unsatisfactory state of the northern frontier, laid down in the Convention of 1830. As that frontier, by making the Aspropotamos the boundary on the north-western side, excluded a great portion of Arcanania and Ætolia from the new Greek state, it appeared to Prince Leopold to be so insecure and indeterminate, that he felt he could not, with honour or satisfaction to himself or the inhabitants of the Greek peninsula, accept of the sovereignty, unless the three Powers agreed to re-consider the treaty, with a 1164 view to extending the frontiers to the original mountain line, extending from the Gulf of Volo to Arta. His suggestion was at the time refused, and, as a consequence, the negotiations for the settlement of Greece were interrupted. Since that interruption, however, the Powers had taken the subject into their earnest consideration, and had arrived at the conclusion, that the original frontier from Volo to Arta was, in every point of view, whether considered in its geographical or military relations, the most expedient that could be fixed upon, and accordingly, in the treaty under which Prince Otho was raised to the throne of Greece, the Volo and Arta frontier had been adopted. That frontier constituted a fine natural mountain range boundary, possessing every military and physical condition requisite to the protection of a small territory, and, besides, separated the Greek from the essentially Turkish provinces. It could not, however, be expected that Turkey would agree to a boundary which went to curtail her territory of Arcanania and part of Ætolia, without some compensation; and, accordingly, negotiations had been entered into under Sir Stratford Canning, the British Ambassador, which he had every reason to believe were all but formally concluded, and under which Turkey agreed to give up those provinces for a specific pecuniary payment, the exact amount of which he did not, at that stage of the proceeding, feel himself justified to make public. He might, however, state, without breach of official confidence, that the matter would be settled to the satisfaction of all parties, and that the payment would be made out of the loan which formed the immediate object of his present Motion. Hon. Members had asked, why bring forward a question of this kind at so late a period of the Session? The short answer to that question was, that if the loan were delayed for any length of time, the object for which the three Powers originally undertook to interpose would be entirely defeated, and Greece would be thrown into a state of anarchy and confusion, from which it would be next to impossible to rescue her. In short, to delay the payment of the instalment for another six months would be to refuse it, or, at all events, to render it useless. It was contended, on the other side, that England ought not to become a party to a loan of this kind, because it was impossible that Greece 1165 could repay it. Those who adopted that argument looked only to the present state of Greece; and, indeed, it was not wonderful that a country which, for so many years, had been struggling against the oppressor—which had so long been made the seat of a wasting and barbarous war—should present an appearance of poverty and desolation. But it did not follow, because Greece, under such circumstances, was impoverished, and incapable of raising a revenue, that, hereafter, when the object of the three Powers should be effected—when she was released from the yoke of the Ottoman—when she had an independent government of her own, when the energies of her people were called forth—when the natural resources of the land (and they were great) were sought out and cultivated—that then Greece should not be able to repay to the Powers of Europe all that they had advanced for the establishment of her freedom and independence. He felt satisfied that the House hereafter would have no reason to regret having acceded to the Resolution which it was his intention to move when the Speaker had left the Chair. The principle of his measure, he repeated, was identical with that which guaranteed a loan to Prince Leopold; and every circumstance that justified that guarantee applied with tenfold force to the present stale of that too long ill-used territory.
§ Mr. Bestsaid, that as the papers connected with this subject were only laid upon the Table last Saturday, he was not prepared to dispute the accuracy of the statements made by the noble Lord opposite; yet he must say, that he thought it moat extraordinary, in the present circumstances of this country, that the House should be called upon to pledge itself to the payment of 800,00l. with so slight a probability of it ever hereafter being repaid. He knew it was said, that this country only guaranteed the payment of the money, in case the Greeks should not be able to fulfil their engagements; but if, as he believed, the first instalment was already pledged to the Turkish government for the surrender of a certain portion of territory which they held, instead of being appropriated to the improvement and cultivation of the wasted and desolated land of the Greeks, what security had this country that the Greek nation would ever possess the means of repaying the money? Under these circumstances, although this was 1166 possibly the last time that he should have the opportunity of taking a part in the proceedings of that House, he should certainly feel it to be his duty to express his opposition to the Resolution which the noble Lord had intimated his intention of moving, by going to a division upon it.
§ Mr. Robinsonthought, that it was the height of infatuation in the noble Lord to come down to the House and propose the present grant, after the statement made only a few nights ago by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of the financial difficulties of the country. The noble Lord had said, that he made this proposition more on the ground of its being a legacy left them by the late Government than for its own intrinsic merits; but the noble Lord ought to recollect that the arrangement made by the late Government was entered into with Prince Leopold; and he did not see that this country was bound, after the rejection of the sovereignty of Greece by his Royal Highness, to continue the guarantee of any sum of money. It was rather strange, too, to hear the present Ministers, who, when out of office, so loudly declared against the extravagance of the late Government, declaring that they considered themselves bound by the acts of their predecessors. But there was no probability, it was stated, that this country could suffer any loss by the proposed guarantee, because the entire revenues of Greece were pledged for the repayment of the loan. Let the House, however, bear in mind that there were other Greek loans besides the present one; and he really thought that the parties who had formerly advanced their money for the benefit of Greece were entitled to some consideration; and if the revenues of the country were to be appropriated to the liquidation of her debts, those creditors ought, in fairness, to receive a portion of them. He was sorry to say that this country had not gained much benefit by interfering in the affairs of the Continent; objects which were purely continental had been accomplished at the expense of much English treasure; and he regretted to see that the noble Lord had, in this respect, fallen into the error of his predecessors. He objected to the present proposition being brought forward at so late a period of the Session, and during such a thin attendance of Members. Before he sat down he wished to ask the noble Lord, whether any security had been obtained for the establishment 1167 of free institutions in Greece under the new regime; or whether the young Prince Otho and his advisers were to be allowed to establish the government on any principles which they might think fit?
§ Mr. Hudson Gurneythought that Prince Otho was a very unfit person to be appointed to govern such a distracted and half-savage nation as Greece; and he was surprised that no one had been selected from the Greeks themselves to govern the country; it was the most absurd thing imaginable to choose a youth of seventeen years to rule over a turbulent and ferocious people. He was decidedly opposed to the present grant; and he thought that a more proposition could than when this improper time for its not have been selected country had so much difficulty to maintain its own finances in a proper condition, and to pay its own debt.
§ Mr. Wellesleysaid, that any person at all acquainted with the state of Greece, must be aware that a native prince was the most unfit individual that could be selected for its sovereign. He thought that the present Government were placed in circumstances of great embarrassment with respect to questions of foreign policy. They could not act altogether upon their own judgments, but were shackled by the arrangements made by their predecessors. He should give his support to the proposition of the Government, because, though he could not agree with the noble Lord in his anticipations of the great prosperity of Greece, he yet thought that the loan of this money afforded the only chance of restoring that country to a state of civilization. He thought it very unlikely that this country would be ever called to pay any money on account of this transaction; for he believed that Russia would not have become a party to the guarantee, had there not existed a great probability that the loan would be repaid by Greece.
§ Mr. Courtenaysaid, that one of the inconveniencies of discussing such a question at that late period of the Session was, that the persons most interested in the noble Lord's statements were not present. He would observe that it must be full in the recollection of every Member whom he had the honour to address, that after the rejection of the throne of Greece by Prince Leopold, the late Government never entered into any negotiation what-ever respecting the loan which now formed the subject of discussion in the House. 1168 Throughout the papers which he had examined on the subject, he had not observed that the Government of this country had done anything more than make a small advance to an agent of the Greek government resident in Paris. It had been alleged that the present Government of this country was bound to proceed in this matter, because the business of interference had been commenced by the preceding Administration. The late Government had not by their acts bound the present, neither could they in fairness be held responsible for the original interference; on the simple ground that they were not parties to that interference, it having taken place before they came into office. They were certainly no parties to the Convention, a leading feature of which was the nomination of Prince Otho to the throne of Greece—a nomination not only not desired by the late Government, but directly disapproved of by them. Both the Duke of Wellington and the Earl of Aberdeen had opposed it when proposed. It was true that prince was now three years older than he was then, but that did not fit him for the throne. For his own part he disapproved very much of the choice, and as it had been disapproved of by the former Ministry, it was absurd now to attempt to make them responsible for it. It had been suggested that there ought to be a short postponement of the present Motion, for the purpose of enabling honourable Members to come to a sounder and more advised conclusion upon that important question. To such a postponement he confessed he saw no objection. He hoped the Ministers would consent to postpone the consideration of this question for a short time, in order to enable those who were greatly interested in it to be present during the discussion.
Mr. Humeexpressed great surprise that the members of an Administration which had taken office on the declared condition of non-interference with foreign states, should outdo their predecessors in a course of the most ill-advised interference. He regretted to hear the speech of the noble Lord, who was disposed to think a great deal of the Greek king, but nothing of the Greek people. The House was wholly to support the king; the people were never thought of. The noble Lord had never once mentioned the Greek nation, nor had he informed the House that the Greeks wished for a king. Could the Ministers 1169 then suppose that it would be in their power to reconcile the discordant elements of which the Greek nation was composed, by placing over them a boy of seventeen years of age, or three men representing that boy? It was idle in the extreme to suppose that a government so formed, having no foundation in public opinion, could have sufficient influence and energy to maintain itself in such a country. But even if it were a monarchy of a better character, monarchy was not the form of government best suited to Greece—of all others he conceived it to be the least suited to that country. In his opinion, a federal republic, or at least a good representative government of some sort or other, would be infinitely better suited to the purposes of Greece, The money which this country was about, he feared, to advance for the purpose of maintaining Prince Otho upon the throne, would be money completely thrown away, and all for the purpose of upholding the monarchy—and such monarchy too—monarchy in the person of a youth whose father had but just recently taken a part in the Frankfort Confederation. In the present state of the House, he thought that coming to such a vote would be extremely improper; and, therefore, he should say, let there be a call of the House, and let the proposition then before them be submitted to a large assemblage of the Representatives of the people.
§ Lord Althorpagreed with hon. Members that the House was not bound by the acts of the Ministry, and it could not for a moment be supposed that his Majesty's Government had ever acted as if they thought that the House could be bound by their acts. He regretted to observe that the question had been argued throughout in a manner too insulated, as if the loan, which was only a part of an extended body of political proceedings, formed the whole of them. It must be well known to the House, that the interference on the part of this country in the affairs of Greece, had its origin at a period antecedent to the accession to office of the Duke of Wellington, and therefore, neither he nor the present Ministers, were answerable for the consequences. It was, of course, fully remembered that the interference commenced under the Administration of Mr. Canning; and even if that right hon. Gentleman had been desirous of avoiding the interference, he might have found him- 1170 self not a little embarrassed, for the enthusiasm which at that time prevailed amongst the people of England was intense—an enthusiasm of which, if he remembered rightly, the hon. member for Middlesex largely partook. The people of Greece demanded from the three great Powers a sovereign in whom all of them should have confidence, and they all at length agreed in nominating Prince Otho. The hon. member for Middlesex had observed, that monarchy would be a most unfit form of government for Greece; but, upon what grounds did he say so? It was admitted that Greece was in a semi-barbarous state, and did the hon. Member suppose that that was the condition of society the most favourable to the establishment of a republic? He thought it had generally been held, that the highest degree of civilization was, if not essential to the existence of a republican form of government, at least the most conducive to that object. In the present state of Greece, it would not for a moment be denied that some strong controling power was demanded; and the idea of forming a republic in a country so little advanced, did, he confessed, appear to his mind perfectly visionary. He, at the time the interference took place, was not so enthusiastic on behalf of the Greeks as was his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex. It had been observed that the parties had done wrong in selecting so young a man as Prince Otho—that remark proceeded upon the supposition that they were at liberty to select any one whom they might think proper; but he begged the House to remember, that the business of selection was no easy task, and it was rendered doubly difficult by the fact, that it had been agreed upon that no prince should be selected from the houses of the contracting parties. Upon these grounds, then, he hoped, that the House would confirm the treaty.
Mr. Faneapproved of the arrangement, and thought it the best that could have been adopted under the circumstances. He did not object to the payment of the money, because this country had a direct interest in the settlement of Greece.
§ The House divided: Ayes 49; Noes 16; Majority 33.
| List of the NOES. | |
| Baillie, Colonel | Courtenay, T. P. |
| Burge, W. | Dalrymple, Sir A. |
| Capel, J. | Dawkins, J. |
| Dixon, J. | Sibthorp, Colonel |
| Hodges, T. L. | Vincent, Sir F. |
| Loughborough, Lord | Watson, Hon. R. |
| Lyon, Captain | TELLERS. |
| Robinson, G. R. | |
| Sadler, M. T. | Hume, J. |
| Shaw, F. | Best, Hon. W. |
§ House went into Committee.
§ Viscount Palmerstonmoved a Resolution to enable his Majesty to guarantee a loan to the Greek government.
§ Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that so far from the House being thin, it was comparatively full. He begged hon. Members to recollect that this was not a final proceeding, but only the foundation for a bill, which might be opposed in its several stages.
Mr. Humerepeated his objections to the measure, and declared he should divide the House in a future stage.
§ Viscount Palmerstonsaid, it seemed to be supposed that the three Powers were imposing on the Greeks a monarchical government against their inclination, whereas there had been three assemblies in Greece to consider of a form of government, and every one had decided in favour of a monarchy.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ House resumed.