Sir John Hobhousebegged to be permitted to state, before he moved the remaining items of the Army Estimates, that he had made inquiries into the subject of the commutation of Army Pensions, to which the right hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Hardinge) had alluded some few nights since. He was even now prepared to enter into some statements on the subject, but he believed it would be better, for the interest of the parties concerned that a specific day should be appointed to take into consideration the whole of the allegations made, and what he had to urge in reply. Nothing could more interest him than the task which officially devolved upon him, in a great degree, of looking to the comfortable provision in old age of our veteran soldiers; and he could assure that right hon. Baronet, that, whilst he continued at the head of the Department of the War Office, it should be his study to prevent the old soldiers in our service from being prejudiced in their enjoyment of the bounty of a grateful nation by any improper application of the principle of economy to their income or allowances.
§ Sir Henry Hardingewas much gratified by hearing what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet. He concurred in his proposal to set apart a special occasion for the general consideration of the subject; and he could assure the right hon. Baronet that he should have all the assistance he could possibly afford him in his laudable endeavours to protect the interest of the veteran, and provide for the prudent application of the funds voted by Parliament for the maintenance for soldiers to whom a more than ordinary debt of gratitude was due for their services during the most arduous contest in which the nation had ever been engaged.
Sir John Hobhousemoved the following votes, which were agreed to, without opposition:—117,274l. 19s. 10d. to defray the charge of Staff Officers at home and abroad, with the exception of India; 103,014l. 15s. 7d. to defray the salaries and allowances to the Officers of Public Departments; 12,000l. for charge of medicine and hospitals; 1282 33,670l. 16s. 2d. for Garrisons at home and abroad.
§ On the vote for 2,638l. 11s. 1d., on account of the Royal Military College,
§ Sir Henry Hardingeexpressed his disapprobation of the economy that had reduced this vote so low. When the House recollected that the Military schools of France cost that country 30,000l. a year, and that a large proportion of the young officers of the French army were educated at the public expense, when even the United States educated 400 students at an expense of 30,000l. a year in order to maintain the efficiency of its very small army, he did hope hon. Members would think the Government were running the Military College too hard, in proposing to cut off the orphan class of students, consisting of only twenty boys, whose fathers had been either wounded in battle, or had died in the service of their country, thus for ever preventing them from treading in the same honourable steps as their fathers. He might, by entering into details, show, that many distinguished officers had been educated at the Military College, and show that it was a false economy to curtail the usefulness of that establishment, but, at all events, the orphan class ought to be continued, and these youths ought to be educated at the expense of the State.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that in the present state of the country, and in a period of peace, he thought there was no reason for the continuance of such an expense, as there was no want of candidates properly educated for commissions. At the Military College education was afforded to the boys at a cheaper rate than they could get it elsewhere; but, as the parents were willing to incur the larger expense he saw no reason for the complaints of the hon. and gallant General against these endeavours to relieve the country from an expense which individuals voluntarily put themselves forward to bear.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that plans had been laid before the War Office by practical military men, showing how the public might at once get rid of the whole of this expense, by throwing it upon the army at large; but, as it was not thought altogether fair towards the army, it was not adopted. But still, by making the young gentlemen pay for their own clothing, amounting to 5l. 10s. each annually, and by increasing the contribution, and making some other alterations, they had reduced the charge from 5,600l., which it 1283 was last year, to 2,638l., notwithstanding some increase in the salaries of the professors. The right hon. and gallant Officer, however, objected to the prospective intention of getting rid of the whole of the public charge. He was aware that this involved a delicate question—no less than that of precluding from commands in the army those who had no original means of support; and thus making the service too aristocratical. That, he knew, was the objection; but, after what he had heard from all quarters, he was inclined to think that holding out this kind of bonus to the introduction of persons into the army, who had not other means of support than what they derived from their commissions, was advantageous neither to the service nor to the public.
§ Sir Henry Hardingethought the right hon. Baronet had touched upon delicate and dangerous ground, in expressing his opinion that the army ought to be entirely officered by individuals who had some support beyond their pay. If such a principle was carried into full operation, the army would become as aristocratical as the French army before the Revolution, when it was officered exclusively by the noblesse. If such a practice had hitherto prevailed in this country, many gallant and able officers, who had no other purses but their pay, would have been excluded from the service, to the great loss of the public. He considered the principle laid down by the right hon. Baronet as a most extraordinary one, particularly coming from him. It was repugnant to the system upon which the army ought to be conducted in a free country, where it could not be upheld as a profession unless it were open to the enterprise of every person. It was incumbent on the Government to raise the pay of officers, to enable them to live with their regiments, rather than permit any exclusive principle to be acted on similar to that adverted to by the right hon. Baronet. Many officers might be the sons of clergymen, and other respectable gentlemen, whose incomes, however, might not admit of making their sons an annual allowance. With regard to the plan alluded to, of making the army pay the expenses of the Military College, and which, the hon. Baronet said, was proposed by military officers, he believed it to be this—that an officer, on coming into the army, instead of merely paying the Regulation price for his Commission, should pay a larger sum on his first commission, by way of a contribution 1284 to the Military College, so that he who had, perhaps, never been at the College, was to be made to pay for the education of those who were educating there. No doubt such a tax might be imposed upon an officer, but he might just as well be charged with a contribution towards the expense of gravelling St. James's Parade, or effecting any other purpose with which he and his first commission had nothing whatever to do. The noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who generally met every question fairly had not treated this subject in his usual open and manly manner. He had urged, as an argument against the Military College, that there were plenty of candidates for commissions in time of peace, and, therefore, there was no necessity to hold out a premium to persons to come into the army, by a gratuitous education at the College, and, a commission for nothing; but he had evaded the real question, which was whether the candidates for the army had received a military education, qualifying them for the situations they were to fill. He had never advocated the principle that all, or even the larger proportion, of the officers should, as a matter of necessity, be educated at the Military College; for, no doubt, any one with the education of an English gentleman, brought up at a public school, with a sound classical education, well disiplined in his regiment afterwards—and more particularly if, at a later period, he took advantage of the senior department of the Military College—would make a very good officer. This, however, was no argument against the College; for an education there gave many professional advantages of great value on service; and many of the most distinguished officers in the Peninsula war had been educated at the College. The argument was, that the College was professionally useful; and if there were good reasons for keeping it up generally, not for any particular class, but for the benefit of the service, how much more strongly did the claims of the orphan class to the generosity of the nation become? Suppose an officer killed in action, who had been distinguished, though poor—for officers were generally younger sons with small fortunes—and his relations were unable to provide for his children; was it not fair that they should be assisted in their education at the public expense? With respect to increasing the contributions of the cadets, it was very well to talk of it across the Table, but he really thought the 125l. 1285 a-year now paid by the parents sufficient to pay for the education of a boy going into the army. To reduce the expenses of the Military College, which at present only cost the public 5,600l. a-year for an army of 90,000 men; in the manner contemplated by Government, to the injury of twenty poor orphans, the sons of officers, was a most shabby sort of economy.
§ Captain BolderoIt was a great point to properly educate the sons of officers who had fallen in the service of their country, for they inherited their fathers name, character, and connexions, but, being without means to procure a proper education, they could not avail themselves of these advantages without the public assistance to bring them forward.
Sir John Bourkethought it right that officers should have the satisfaction of knowing, that, if they fell in the service of their country, their children would be educated by the state. With respect to the non-admission of officers unless they had private fortunes, such a regulation would much impair the efficiency of the army as it would totally destroy that emulation which was created in the lower ranks in the hopes of obtaining a commission.
Mr. Warburtonthought this a proper opportunity to recommend the principle advocated by the hon. member for Middlesex, and consolidate all the military schools of Addiscombe, Woolwich and Blackwater, into one, by which the expenses of three separate establishments would be much reduced.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ 22,885l. 16s. 8d. for the Royal Military Asylum and the Hibernian Military School.
§ 99,608l. 12s. 4d. for the Volunteer Corps of Great Britain and Ireland.
§ 17,500l. for Exchequer fees on issues to be made for the army services in Great Britain and Ireland.
§ 125,000l. for the pay of General Officers in his Majesty's forces, not being Colonels of regiments: and
§ 90,000l. for the full pay of reduced and retired officers of his Majesty's forces, were voted.
§ On the question, that 666,500l. be granted for the half-pay and military allowances to reduced and retired officers of his Majesty's land forces being read from the chair,
§ Sir Henry Hardingesaid, he took credit to himself for having introduced the system of commuting the half-pay of officers of 1286 the army. Upwards of 500 officers had accepted commutations, which had caused a saving to the public of upwards of 30,000l. a-year, besides weeding the army of a number of individuals who either never intended to make it a profession, or had given up their intentions, if they had ever entertained any such. His plan had been, to make officers either go upon service, or sell out, but the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary at War, was reported to have said, on a former evening, that, if the system had been pursued with greater vigour, a still larger saving might have been made. He begged to observe, however, that there was a line to be drawn in this case, and that which was practicable on one side of that line might be very cruel and extremely inexpedient on the other. An officer might have served but a short time, yet, if that service had been in a tropical climate, his constitution might have sustained so much injury as to unfit him for farther actual service; and, therefore, a rule founded on mere length of service ought not to be adopted. In applying the system of commutations, each case ought to be decided upon its own merits. There was another point connected with the system of commutation, which he begged to notice. It ought rarely to be granted in lieu of pensions for life, or for the loss of limbs, but if it ever was allowed, the full value of the pension ought to be given in such cases. There was this difference between pensions, and half-pay—the former could, under no circumstances, be taken away, although the latter might; it was not only an allowance for former services, but a retainer for future ones. The right hon. Baronet, no doubt recollected the account given by Sterne in his "Sentimental Journey," of the officer decorated with the cap of St. Louis selling petits patés. He (Sir H. Hardinge) much feared that if officers were permitted to commit the improvident act of commuting their pensions for wounds, similar objects would be met with in this country, and the public would have the misery of seeing men mutilated in the public service, deprived of the national bounty by the act of those men themselves, from which their guardian, the Secretary at War, ought to have restrained them. The only mode to be adopted to prevent such things was, entirely to prohibit all bargains between a wounded officer and the public.
Sir John Hobhouseexplained, that what he had said on a former evening was, that a considerable saving might be made to the 1287 public by pursuing such a system of commutation with due, but not improper vigour. He was by no means for pushing it further, and least of all did he think of extending it to what might be considered a system of forced commutation. The right hon. Baronet might be assured that he would pay proper attention to his remarks with regard to wounded officers.
Mr. Humesaid, there was another consideration of some importance connected with this subject, and that was the disposal of first commissions. By the present practice, the Commander-in-Chief had the power, by giving away commissions, to bestow as many pensions for life as he might consider proper. Every first commission in his opinion ought to be purchased, which would cause a great saving to the country; at present with such an enormous dead weight, all vacancies ought to be filled up from the Half-pay List.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that very few first commissions were given away; but it was absolutely necessary, in some cases, to confer them upon individuals without purchase. It would be impossible to take all the officers from the half-pay list, at least so as to render the service effective; for it was not to be imagined that men of eight-and-thirty or forty years of age would return to the army as ensigns. Nor, indeed, would such persons be able well to discharge their duties, encumbered as most of them would be with families, and estranged in habits from military service. It was positively necessary to have a regular succession of young men enter the service.
Mr. Humesaid, what he proposed was, that the young man should buy out the old life, and he would answer for it that many would be found ready to do so. If, however, the old half-pay officer declined the acceptance of a junior commission, there would be nothing unjust in requiring him to make way for one that would.
§ Sir Henry Hardingesaid, this was the precise plan he had practised as Secretary at War. Such officers as had not performed a sufficient term of service to justify their receiving permanent half-pay, were required to join a regiment, or else receive a sum of money to leave the army. If, however, this plan was to be adopted to its full extent, the effect would be, that the cadets of the Military College must be deprived of the promotion, which they now received, to the amount of fourteen or fifteen a-year. It was necessary, therefore, to use some discrimination in carrying it 1288 into practice. Another objection, if they sold every commission would be, that they would thereby shut the door against those persons who had a just claim, but who were not able to purchase; as, for instance, where the father had claims for services, what better mode could there be of meeting those claims than by giving his son a commission? He was quite sure that the right hon. Baronet would find every readiness to meet him on the part of the Commanderin-Chief; for, in saying that, he only spoke from his own experience. He begged, also, to say, that he quite agreed with the right hon. Baronet, that it would be impossible to place men of thirty-five or forty years of age, among young gentlemen, who generally fill the first commissions. The hon. Gentleman would find, that by the warrant of 1830, an officer was only entitled to termporary half-pay, unless he had served on full-pay for three years; the object of which was, that he might receive the price of his commission, which was to be paid by the sale of a first commission.
Vote agreed to, as was the following votes.
88,900l. for the charge of half-pay and reduced allowances to officers of disbanded foreign corps, of pensions to wounded foreign officers, and of allowances to the widows and children of deceased foreign officers, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833.
26,334l. 15s. for the charge for reduced Local Militia adjutants, retired officers of the Militia, and reduced adjutants and serjeant majors of Yeomanry, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833.
50,750l. 16s. 10d. for the charge of allowances, compensations, and emoluments, in the nature of superannuation or retired allowances to persons formerly belonging to the several Public Departments in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 1st April, 1832, to the 31st March, 1833; and 14,500l. for the charge of Exchequer fees in Great Britain upon issues to be made for non-effective army services, from 1st of April, 1832, to 31st of March, 1833, were also voted.
§ The House resumed.
§ On the Resolution for granting 147,423l. for the charge of Pensions to be paid to widows of officers of the land forces, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833.
§ Sir Adolphus Dalrympleinquired what was the amount of other means which disqualified widows from receiving pensions. He wished to know whether officers' 1289 widows were compelled to swear to the amount of their property, and also whether the right hon. Gentleman had taken into consideration the case of the general officers' widow, who had been refused a pension because she had 400l. a-year?
Sir John Hobhousesaid, these were matters which must be regulated by circumstances. Whoever had any control over the public purse was bound to maintain a just economy. There were various considerations, however, arising out of their positions in society, and other circumstances, which must influence the amount of the pensions granted to widows. With respect to the particular case adverted to by the hon. Member, the more he inquired into it the more he was satisfied of the propriety of the decision.
§ Sir Henry Hardingeconfirmed what had been stated by the right hon. Secretary-at-War. The amount of other means possessed by a widow ought not to be the sole criterion of her right to a pension. It would be very hard that a widow should be visited with punishment because her husband had been a careful man, and had saved a little money for the education of his children. Such a regulation would be an encouragement to profligate expenditure.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ On the Resolution for granting 175,041l. for the charge of allowances on the Compassionate List, of allowances as of his Majesty's royal bounty, and of pensions, gratuities, and allowances to officers for wounds, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833, being proposed,
§ Sir Adolphus Dalrymplesaid, when this subject was last before the House, he had mentioned the case of an officer which had appeared in The Times newspaper, and he hoped this had since been looked into.
Sir John Hobhousepresumed the case was that of Captain St. George Lyster, and he begged to say, he had fully informed himself of it, and that he agreed with the decision of his predecessor on the subject.
§ Sir Henry Hardingesaid, he had never thought it necessary to vindicate himself from the charge made by the officer whose name had been mentioned, for he had no doubt it was founded on correct principles. He was, however, glad that the right hon. Baronet had taken the same view of the subject as he had done.
Mr. Humethought, all pensions should be granted only on account of services performed, and not for the number of children left; if such a practice prevailed, it would 1290 operate like the present system of Poorlaws as a bounty to beget children.
§ Sir Henry Hardingesaid, pensions were always granted according to a regular scale, without any reference to the number of children. It was only in case of the Compassionate Fund that such circumstances were considered, and the amount granted on that account was never below that recommended by the Finance Committee.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ On the vote for 1,350, 503l. 6s. 8d. to defray the charges of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, of the in-pensioners of these establishments; and of the out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital, from the 1st of April, 1832, to the 31st of March, 1833,
§ Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that he observed that 30,000l. was taken in aid of this vote, out of the unclaimed prize-money of the army. He thought it was worth the consideration of the noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, and the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary-at-War, whether the sums arising from this source might not be more judiciously employed, by enabling the public to permanently endow some of those humane Societies which had reference to the service; for surely none could have a better claim than the soldiers who fought for it, such as the Military Asylum, and the Hibernian Military Asylum. He believed that 200,000l. or 300,000l. had already beeen subtracted from the unclaimed prize-money; and it was evident that if this sum had been invested for the benefit of these Asylums, they would by this time have ceased to be any expense to the country.
Lord John Russellbelieved the practice had been, for many years, to pay a part of the expense of Chelsea Hospital out of this money, without any application to Parliament being made on the subject. When this vote, however, was considered at the Board over which he presided, he had given it as his opinion that this money should be taken as deducted from the vote; so that Parliament might have a clear view of what was doing on the subject. That this was not formerly the case would be seen, when he stated that 50,000l. from this fund had been applied to the buildings at Chelsea, without the sanction of Parliament. With respect to endowing the Asylums as proposed by the gallant Officer, his predecessor, the late Mr. Calcraft, was of opinion, that as those Asylums had been objected to in Parliament, it would not be fit to abstract them from the view of this House, 1291 by making them separately endowed establishments. His opinion coincided with that of Mr. Calcraft; and he thought unclaimed prize-money might be better employed by making it applicable to the commutation of soldiers' pensions, which was a new charge, and had amounted to much more than was at first contemplated—the expense this year being 70,000l.
Mr. Humesaid, he had long ago objected to this mode of making deductions in accounts, and here was one of the consequences of it; for 50,000l. had been spent for buildings at Chelsea, without any Member of that House knowing anything at all about it.
§ Sir Henry Hardingecould not allow the noble Lord to infer that this was the first time this money had been brought before Parliament. If he would call for a paper of his, in the War Office, he would find in it some observations on this very point; and he would perceive that arrangements were made by him and Mr. Calcraft, to bring the matter before the House; and although that was not done, it was no fault of the late Government. Perhaps, however, the noble Lord only meant to impute blame to his colleague, the present Foreign Secretary, who preceded him (Sir Henry Hardinge) as Secretary-at-War; if so, he, of course, could not presume to defend Lord Palmerston; though he had no doubt that if the noble Paymaster would fix a time for the discussion, that noble Lord would be ready to vindicate himself.
Lord John Russelldid not mean to say, that this account was never known till the present Administration came into office; but he meant to say, that Mr. Calcraft told him that what he had stated had been the practice; and that he thought that a statement on this head ought to be made in the estimates. He did not mean to enter into any discussion as to the former conduct of his noble friend when in the War Office; but, perhaps, twelve or twenty years ago these things were more loosely carried on than now.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, it was impossible there could be any deception about the present vote; for it was distinctly stated that 30,000l. was taken from the unclaimed prize-money. The offer of that sum was made by the Chelsea Board; and he did not think that even his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, would have had them refuse it, especially as they had to meet an expense of 70,000l. for commutation-money. He admitted, however, that 1292 it was a very reasonable question, whether it would not be better to place this money so as to be receiving interest for it, instead of sinking it altogether by making it applicable to the estimates of the year.
§ Sir Henry Hardingesaid, all he aimed at was, to relieve the late Administration from the insinuation attempted to be thrown out that this money was first brought forward for the public service by the present one; and as he had attained his object, he would only add, that he believed that this prize-money now appearing on the estimates was chiefly owing to the paper he had drawn up, and which had been already alluded to.
§ Resolution agreed to.