§ On the motion of Mr. Spring Rice, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, The right hon. Gentleman moved, that a sum, not exceeding 163,670l. 9s. 2d., be voted to his Majesty, to defray the expenses which had been incurred on behalf of Windsor Castle and Buckingham House.
§ Mr. James rose to observe, that he must enter his protest against voting away any more of the public money for purposes such as those to which the vote now before the House, was to be applied. He, for one, was entirely taken by surprise, when he heard himself called on to agree that so large a sum should be voted away for the repairs and erection of palaces which would never be inhabited, for he had entertained some hopes that all such outlays would have ceased with the reign of that most extravagant Monarch, the late King [order, order.] He repeated his assertion, for what he said was matter of history. The history of George 4th was now before the public, and he would not scruple to assert, that, in his opinion, George 4th was one of the most extravagant, and one of the worst Monarchs that had ever reigned in England. Looking at the vote as calculated to encourage such extravagance as he had deprecated and censured, he should feel it to be his duty to take the sense of the House upon it.
§ Colonel Sibthorpcordially agreed with the hon. Member in his observations with respect to the extravagance which had been displayed in the outlay of the public money on such works as those for which the vote was now demanded; but he, for one, must express his total dissent to what had fallen from the hon. Member, with regard to the late King, for whose memory he entertained a high respect, and whom the hon. Member might have spared, in the recollection of that maxim which enjoins men to refrain from speaking disrespectfully of the dead, more particularly when it was recollected that the subject of his remarks was the late sovereign of this kingdom.
§ Mr. Ruthvenobserved, that the greater part of the debt which this vote was intended to defray, had been incurred under the former Administration, and nothing had hitherto been done by the present 712 Ministers which was not strictly in accordance with the recommendations of a Committee. He thought, on the whole, that the expenses were grossly extravagant; but it was necessary to complete the palaces, in order to have proper residences for his Majesty.
Mr. James, in explanation, said, that he had only expressed his own opinion. He thought, at this moment, when the situation of the country called for a reduction of the burthens of the people, every possible retrenchment should be made, and he knew no subject on which retrenchment could better begin than in the erection and repair of palaces.
§ Colonel Trenchsaid, that if Buckingham-house should be found not to be a fit palace for the King, he hoped the Committee would consider, before they decided upon any plan, what would be the probable expense of making it even fit as a private residence for his Majesty. He had visited the place some months ago, and found the basement story under water, and the ground floor nearly in the same situation; at least, it was so damp as to be unfit for a residence; and at that time, though the weather was very warm, fires were kept up. As to the first part of this grant—that for the improvements at Windsor Castle—he thought it was a very proper grant, and he hoped that sufficient means would not be refused to complete that great national object; but the vote for Buckingham-house was different. He did not object to the sum now asked, for it was to pay debts already due; and, however imprudent the outlay was in the first instance, the House was bound to pay the tradesmen and the artisans who had supplied the labour and materials. It was another question, however, whether any further sums should be expended, in order to make the building a royal residence. The necessity of getting rid of the nuisances which surrounded Buckingham-house, and the expense which that would occasion, should also be taken into consideration. A plan had occurred to him, by which the public might dispose of this building on very advantageous terms, and at the same time erect an elegant and commodious residence for their Majesties, without any additional expense to the country. Some time ago he had written to the Chairman of the Committee appointed to consider of this subject, and offered to give his evidence as to the state 713 of Buckingham-house, and its fitness or unfitness for a royal residence. The Chairman of the Committee sent him a very polite answer, declining his offer at that time, and stating, that the Committee had already come to a resolution to consider whether Buckingham-house might not be made a private residence for the King. Nothing was said of making it a residence for the King and Queen, for no man who had seen the building could for a moment believe that it could ever be made a fit residence for the Court. To that decision of the Committee he of course bowed, though, at the same time, he by no means acquiesced in its propriety; for he thought, that after the Committee should have decided upon recommending it for a private residence, it would be too late to consider of applying it to any other purpose. He regretted that this subject had not been brought forward at an earlier period of the session. He would have called the attention of the House to the subject before, but he deferred it, in the expectation that the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests would be able to attend. He was not still without hope that the Committee would take his plan into consideration. By that plan, a palace might be erected fit for the residence of the Sovereign and his Court, without putting the nation to the expense of a shilling. Buckingham-house had ever been a bad bargain for the country, and he thought that if it could be got rid of on advantageous terms, without the necessity of throwing away any more of the public money upon it, it would, for the first time, become of some benefit to the public. It would, in a few weeks, be too late to make the arrangement which he was about to mention, but there was yet time enough to complete it, if the matter were taken up at once. He would propose that King's College should be transferred to Buckingham-house, which, with very little alteration, might be well adapted for that purpose, and the building, now erected for King's College, might be turned into public offices, for which its situation was better adapted than for a public school. By this arrangement, a saving of full 15,000l. a year might be effected to the country. He had then in his possession an estimate of the sums paid for rent, &c., of public offices in different parts of the metropolis; and it appeared, as would be seen, when the returns, for which he should move, were laid 714 before the House, that the sum he had mentioned, might be saved by bringing them all to one point, which, besides, would be a great convenience to the public. When he should submit his motion for these returns, he should be able to show that the advantages he had pointed out might be obtained by this plan. He should be able, he thought, satisfactorily to establish, that a suitable residence might be erected for his Majesty, without any expense to the public. He would not, as he had already stated, offer any objection to this vote, because it was required for the payment of work already done; but he must again express his earnest hope, that the Committee would consider the great expense which it would probably require before this building could be made a residence fit for his Majesty.
§ Mr. John Woodsaid, that a Committee, which had sat on the subject of the buildings at Windsor and at Buckingham-house, had decided that 177,000l. more should be advanced for completing the repairs and alterations of the former; that sum to be advanced in payments of 50,000l. a year, until the whole was paid. The sum of 100,000l. now asked for, was not a prospective vote, but was for the payment of arrears for work already done. When the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Sibthorp) lectured Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House, on economy, he ought to put the saddle on the right horse, for the expenditure which this vote was to make good was incurred under the late Administration. He (Mr. Wood) was a member of the Committee on this subject appointed in 1831; which had now sat nearly four months, and had diligently employed itself in the examination of the accounts, which had been sent in to an amount exceeding 100,000l. They had called to their assistance, tradesmen who gave them information as to the nature and value of the work done, and they were still engaged upon the same inquiry. In the meantime, however, the tradesmen, many of whom were in great distress by being kept out of the payment of their accounts so long, ought not to be allowed to starve. It was necessary, therefore, that the sum now asked should be given. This did not touch the question how far the contracts originally entered into for the erection of this tasteless and unsightly building were provident or otherwise. He thought the expenditure was most extra- 715 vagant, and it would be recollected that he had been the means of putting a stop to it, by the bill for which he moved, for the better regulation of the land revenues. The statement then made as to the vast expenditure already incurred on Buckingham-house, was the means of putting a stop to any further outlay. In his opinion, too much money had been already expended upon that building, and before any more should be thrown away, they ought to decide to what object that palace could well be applied. This, however, should not hinder the payment of the arrears due to the tradesmen and artisans who had been employed on it. Some of these were reduced to such distress by the delay in the payment of their bills, as to become insolvent; and one man, who had been in respectable circumstances, and who had supplied the apparatus for warming the palace, was reduced to such distress by not being paid, that he actually had the bed sold from under him. This was a state of things not at all creditable to those under whose management these expenses had been incurred. He had very strong opinions as to some parts of this expenditure, and some questions to ask respecting it, but the present was not the proper time for entering upon them. He would wait until the Committee should have made its report, and then call the attention of the House to the subject. This, he repeated, was no argument for postponing the payment to the starving tradesmen, who should have been paid long ago. To show that the Committee had not been idle since its appointment, he might mention, that bills to the amount of 120,000l. had been sent in for furniture for Windsor Castle; some of these were of so extravagant a nature in their charges, that in examining them, there had been a reduction on this amount of within a few hundreds of 25,000l. This showed that their time had been profitably employed.
§ Mr. Protheroewas rather surprised at the statement of the hon. and gallant Officer, that the basement story of Buckingham-house was underwater. The Government had had a very different account of it from an eminent architect who had lately examined it, and who stated, that the building was in a perfectly sound state, and that, with very little alteration, it might be rendered fit for the residence of his Majesty.
§ Colonel Trenchhad not said any thing 716 as to the stability of the building. He himself had not visited the building lately, but when he did see it, the basement story was—he would not say actually under water, for that was too strong an expression—but it certainly was damp and unwholesome, and the ground floor was also damp, though it was then warm weather. The gentleman from whom he had his information as to its recent condition, had seen it ten days ago, and he assured him, that the ground floor was damp, and unfit to reside in. But it would be easy to put that fact beyond all doubt, by a new examination of it. When he saw the building, the weather was warm, but even then it was necessary to have the place kept aired by warming stoves fitted up in different parts of it. The very situation of the house was quite sufficient to account for its damp condition. There was a large lake in front of it, and another in the rear; and near it was erected a large mound to hide some of the out-offices from view, by which a free circulation of air was prevented. It was no argument in favour of it to say, that the healthy and vigorous family of George 3rd had been reared in that house. The circumstances of its situation were now quite different. The proximity of the two great lakes to which he had before alluded, though they contributed greatly as ornaments, tended to make the place damp. He would remind the Committee, that to make the place a palace fit for the residence of the Sovereign, it would be necessary to purchase the buildings in its neighbourhood, which could be considered only as nuisances, in such proximity to a royal residence. Some of these buildings had been already greatly enhanced in value, on the probability that it would be necessary to purchase them. On the whole, he would say, that to fit up Buckingham-palace as a residence for the King and Queen, and their Court, would require another outlay of at least 500,000l.; and even then the residence could not be otherwise than incommodious.
§ Mr. George Robinsonwished to know, whether the sum now called for would cover all arrears; or whether it was only a sum on account. If it were the latter, he should object; for he had seen, on other occasions, that sums voted on account, had only led to increased expenditure. He regretted that the tradesmen who were thus made creditors of the 717 State, should be driven to such distress by the delay in the payment of their bills; but were there not some parties who, while these tradesmen were in such distress, had made large fortunes by having a per centage on the whole outlay, on the pulling down and altering, as well as the original building? Would it not be better to wait until the report of the Committee was before the House? On the plan suggested by the gallant Officer he would not then enter, but he thought it was too important to be lost sight of.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that the 100,000l. would cover all the arrears, or very nearly. The arrears were, 104, 704l. 3s. 4d., so that this sum would nearly cover the whole. These arrears consisted chiefly of bills due to tradesmen, and very pressing representations had been made to the Government as to the great distress to which many of these tradesmen had been reduced by the delay in their payments. One gentleman, a man of great reputation and fame as an artist, was reduced to such distress by this delay, that he ran the risk of being seriously injured if that delay were continued much longer. As to what should be done with Buckingham-palace, that question was at present under the consideration of a Committee, and he would offer no opinion until that Committee should have decided. One gentleman, an architect of considerable skill, and one who was very accurate in his estimates, had calculated, that not more than 70,000l. would be required to finish the palace, and put it in a fit state for the residence of the Sovereign; and if that estimate were as correct as some others which he had seen made by the same party, though on a smaller scale, he had reason to believe, that the expenditure required would not be more than that sum. However, before they came to the question of further expenditure, it would be necessary to decide to what use it might be proper to apply the building. The sums already sanctioned by Parliament for Windsor Castle amounted to 594,000l. There had been a further sum sanctioned by Parliament last year of 177,000l., which made the whole for building and repairs 977,000l. in round numbers. There was, besides this, a sum of 267,000l. for furniture, and a further sum of 5,222l. 9s. 2d., but from this was to be deducted the sum of 1,500l. for fees paid to the Lord Chamberlain's office, and to which 718 that office was considered not to be entitled. This reduced the sum of 5,222l. to about 3,600l. There was another item, for furniture this year, and for this he was responsible. An estimate had been made in the first instance of 12,000l. for this furniture, but that was considered an exorbitant amount, and, by opening the thing to competition, the estimate was reduced to 10,000l.—thus the whole sum, for furniture amounted to 280,670l. 9s. 2d. There was, besides this, an outlay of 33,500l. for the purchase of land, which it was considered desirable to possess, in the neighbourhood of the Castle. This made the whole sum expended for building, repairs, alterations, for furniture, and for the purchase of land, 1,084,470l. Of this sum, 894,500l. had been already applied, leaving a sum of 180,670l. still to be applied. The sum for furniture required in the present year amounted to 13,000l., which, added to the 50,000l. which it was intended to apply annually out of the sum of 177,000l. which Parliament had already sanctioned, made the expenditure for Windsor Castle this year 63,000l. The sum of 100,000l. in addition now called for was, as had been already stated, for the purpose of paying the arrears due to workmen, and was all that would be required to cover those arrears within the sum of about 4,000l. which he had already mentioned.
Mr. Humedeprecated the unexampled haste with which this vote was brought forward after the estimates had been laid upon the Table. It was only at two o'clock that morning that that estimate had been presented; yet, after so short an interval, during which no person could be prepared to examine the accounts, they were called upon to vote these sums. He had objected, on a former occasion to the expenditure of 300,000l. for Windsor Castle, and 200,000l. for Buckingham-palace, until a statement should be laid on the Table, showing whether these sums would be sufficient to cover the expenditure for which they were intended. The Committee now saw the effect of their not having such an account. The late Government had incurred a heavy responsibility by the manner in which the accounts of the expenditure at these palaces had been neglected, and they ought to be called on to explain their negligence in that respect. He should like to call the late Chancellor of the Exchequer to a serious 719 account on this subject, for he considered that the late Ministers deserved little less than impeachment for their want of care in allowing such an extravagant expenditure of the public money. It was a perfect mockery of that House to call upon it to vote such large sums out of the pockets of the people, and not to lay before it a full and accurate account of the manner in which they were to be applied. It was said, that this vote of 100,000l. was necessary for the payment of the tradesmen, who were in great distress from the delay in the settlement of their accounts. He admitted they were, and it was a shame that they should be, and he only regretted, that every one of them could not come upon the late Ministers for the full liquidation of their demands. What was the use of talking of the responsibility of Ministers, if it could not be made available to prevent such a public inconvenience as this? A sum of nearly 900,000l. had been already expended upon Windsor Castle, and 464,000l. upon Buckingham-palace; and they were now called upon for 100,000l. of arrears for the latter, and for 63,000l. for this year, for Windsor Castle. If he made no objection to the payment of the arrears, he certainly should object to their being paid out of the pockets of the people, while Crown lands existed which were only a burden upon the country, and the sale of part of which might easily be made available to cover the remaining expenditure for these buildings. Parliament might dispose of those lands; or, if that were objected to, let a bill be brought in to enable the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests to borrow money on the security of the Crown lands, and thus provide a fund for the payment of the arrears, and for the completion of the buildings—if it were necessary that Buckingham-palace should be completed. He would not now go into many points connected with this expenditure, because too little time had been allowed for examining into it. He thought, however, that they should wait until they had before them the report of the Committee, and that until then they should not vote any further sum. The great blame of this delay rested in the late Government—though he must at the same time observe, that the present Government had been long enough in office to have called the attention of Parliament to this subject before now; but as they had 720 waited so long, they might wait a little longer. As to what they should do with Buckingham-palace, he would not offer an opinion; but he thought it worth while to inquire, whether it could be completed as a Royal residence without any very great additional outlay. He had listened to the suggested plan of the hon. and gallant Officer (Colonel Trench), and he would not say, that it was undeserving of attention; but he thought, that having already gone so far with the palace, having already expended so large a sum of the public money upon it, they ought not to give it up if it were practicable to make it a fit residence for their Majesties. He was ready to admit, that the Sovereign of this country ought to have a residence suitable to his high dignity; but when he admitted this, he must again say, that he would not have it paid for out of the pockets of the people, but by the sale of those lands which belonged to the Crown, and the continuance of which in the hands of Commissioners only made them a burden instead of a benefit to the country. He would not urge the subject further at present, except again to press upon the noble Lord the necessity of deferring these votes until they had an opportunity of further inquiry, or at least until they had before them the report of the Committee. He would, therefore, move, that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ Mr. Stricklandhoped that they were at last bringing these accounts to a close. He felt no pleasure in looking at Buckingham Palace. It was nothing but an immense pile of buildings: but as they had laid out large sums of money on it, they were bound to adhere to it. He was satisfied that the people of this country did not wish to grudge his Majesty a suitable Palace, but they were anxious that the money spent on it might not be wasted. He should, therefore, not oppose the present grant, the more especially as the money was due for work done. He agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Crown possessions should be either sold or mortgaged to supply the sums necessary for the completion of Royal Palaces.
Mr. Maberlyreminded the House that this grant was proposed to defray expenses already incurred. He was ready to admit, that if the money asked for was to meet future expenses, the House would be justified in calling for further time before 721 agreeing to the vote. He certainly was of opinion that the money had been improperly expended; but that was not the question before the House. The only question was, whether those parties to whom the money was due were to be paid or not? The hon. member for Middlesex had proposed that the required sum should be taken from the funds of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. It was of very little importance from what fund the money was taken, whether from the Woods and Forests, or from the Consolidated Fund, for all the revenue of the Crown lands was public revenue.
Mr. Warburtonbegged the hon. member for Middlesex to recollect, that the great proportion of the present vote would go to defray the expenses of works undertaken by the late Government, and he did not think it just to punish the present Government for the faults of their predecessors. He thought that the vote ought to be allowed to pass without delay, as the money was due to a description of men who were actually in need of it. He could not support his hon. friend's proposition, to raise the required sum from the sale of the Crown lands. It would take some time before the Crown lands could be sold for that purpose, and in the meanwhile, what was to become of the tradesmen who stood in need of the money which was due to them?
Mr. Humesaid, that the Crown lands were not generally productive to the public, and he wished to make them available for the purposes of this vote.
§ Mr. Briscoeconcurred in the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Middlesex, and thought that the present vote ought to be postponed until the Select Committee appointed to inquire on the subject of Buckingham Palace made their report. He had given his vote in favour of Reform, and he felt bound to support that vote by advocating economy and retrenchment.
Mr. Wilkswas not disposed, at the present moment, to blame either the present or the late Government for their conduct with respect to the Royal Palaces; but he did think that Ministers had been guilty of precipitation in bringing forward the vote before the House. He agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex in thinking that the grant ought to be postponed until the Select Committee made their Report. He understood that the Committee had made 722 a Special Report, recommending that the debts already incurred should be discharged. He was not before aware of that fact. He had not seen the Report, and was sure that it was not printed. He still thought that the vote should be deferred, and time allowed for the consideration of that Report.
§ Mr. Spring Ricethought, that it could not be fairly said, that the House was taken by surprise with respect to this vote. Hon. Members were aware that a Committee had been some time sitting to examine the accounts connected with the Royal Palaces. It was true that the Committee had not made a full Report on the subject, but they had made a Special Report with respect to the debts already incurred, and recommended the House to discharge them. The present vote, therefore, was supported by the recommendation of the Select Committee appointed by the House. The hon. member for Middlesex had proposed the postponement of the grant; but to that proposition he could not consent, for the circumstances of the case were such as to make it a matter of great importance that the money should be voted with as little delay as possible. He would state the case of one tradesman, who had claims on the Treasury for work performed in Buckingham Palace, in order that the House might see the necessity of immediately passing the present vote. The individual in question had invented a plan of heating houses, and had been employed to apply it to Buckingham Palace. This he had done at his own expense, and had, up to the present time, kept the Palace in a proper state of warmth, and might be said to have contributed thereby to the preservation of the Palace. His resources were, however, at last drained, and he came to the Treasury with the last remains of his property in pawnbrokers' duplicates. The Treasury had it not in their power to grant him the relief he asked for—the payment of the money due to him—because no vote had passed that House; but the unfortunate man received 100l. in charity from the Royal purse, in order to keep him from starving. From this statement he thought that the House would see the expediency of passing the vote with the least possible delay, and of not deferring it until after an investigation of the revenue arising from Crown property.
§ Mr. Cresset Pelhamsupported the proposal of the hon. member for Middlesex, 723 In his opinion, too much had been spent, and the Government were bound to show good reasons for demanding so large a grant.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonwould not now enter into the question whether the money which had been spent on Buckingham Palace had been improperly and extravagantly expended, but there was a great difference between a debt already contracted and a proposition for fresh expenditure. He should give his vote for the payment of these tradesmen, because he believed their demands to be just, and because he felt also that the Government could and should be legally compelled to pay them, as they had been incurred by accredited agents of Government.
§ Mr. Huntwas of opinion, that those who contracted the debt ought to pay it. The whole expenditure upon Buckingham-house had been extravagantly wasteful and profligate from beginning to end. It had been well described as a mixture of mud and magnificence, and was another proof of the bad taste of those who selected sites for Palaces, and the buildings they erected were worthy of their situations.
§ Mr. John Martinsaid, that he would not only vote for the sum now required, but for any further sum which might be necessary to complete the Palace, for he thought that it would be a profligate waste of the public money to leave the building uncompleted after so much money had already been expended upon it. He would take this opportunity of calling the attention of Ministers to another subject of some importance. He understood that apiece of ground contiguous to Somerset-house was set apart as a site for the construction of the King's College, on the express understanding that the building should be made to form, the eastern wing of Somerset-house, which had never yet been completed. The College was now finished, but instead of being built in uniformity with the edifice which it was intended to complete, it bore not the slightest resemblance to it. He wished to know how this happened. Some explanation was due on the subject.
Mr. Francis Baringsaid, that he could satisfy the hon. Member upon the subject to which he had alluded. The Trustees of the College had entered into an agreement with Government, that the building should be erected in such a manner as to form the eastern wing of Somerset-house, and thus 724 complete that edifice. Government had obtained security for the fulfilment of the contract. The wing was to be completed within five years. Government had employed a surveyor to ascertain whether it was practicable to complete the building according to the proposed plan, and he had reported in the affirmative.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, that he had seen the College from the river, and was of opinion that, it was built in such a manner as to render it utterly impossible to complete the eastern wing, unless part of the College should be pulled down.
Mr. Goulburnassured the hon. member for Kirkcudbright, that ample space was left to allow of the eastern wing being completed in conformity with the rest of the building.
§ Colonel Sibthorpopposed the grant, and complained that the House had been, taken by surprise when it was proposed. He hoped the hon. member for Middlesex would press his Amendment.
Mr. Jamesfelt for the tradesmen who were said to be suffering, but when it was asserted that they could not be paid without the authority of Parliament, he would answer, that the debts ought not to have been incurred without the sanction of the House; and he agreed with the hon. member for Preston, that those who authorized the work should be made to pay for it. The House was no protection against a wasteful expenditure of the public money, if Ministers could expend such sums without its authority.
Mr. Edward Ellicebegged to be permitted to explain why this vote had been laid on the Table, before the final Report of the Committee had been made. The subjects to be inquired into were various and difficult, and although the Committee had been very assiduous in inquiring into them, they were still unable to come to a conclusion, and as they found it necessary to adjourn for fourteen days, the Chairman recommended that 100,000l. should be applied in the mean time to the payment of distressed tradesmen.
Mr. Humesaid, that since he had made his preceding observations, a paper had been handed to him, which purported to be the first Report of the Committee on the Royal Palaces, but he did not observe any recommendation of one sum of 10,000l. which was included in the vote now before the House. He wished, therefore, to know how that sum came to be charged, He 725 begged it to be understood that he wished the tradesmen should be paid, but the sum necessary for that purpose should be taken from the Crown lands, and not from the Consolidated Fund.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, the 10,000l. to which his hon. friend objected, was intended to pay for furniture for St. George's-hall, Windsor, and he applied for it on his own responsibility.
Mr. Humesaid, he would take his noble friend's word as a private man for the payment of any sum, but as Chancellor of the Exchequer he could not trust him. The House ought to be told how this 10,000l. was to be expended; they had heard of chairs which cost 100l. or 200l. each; these were out of character for a hall, even allowing that hall was part of a Royal Palace: good substantial oak chairs were alone required.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, perhaps his hon. friend was perfectly justified in placing no confidence in the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but as to his remarks about the furniture, he resembled another hon. friend of his, an antiquary, who thought there should be loop-holes in the Palace instead of windows, as it was called a castle. As the loop holes had given way to windows, so he hoped the oak chairs might be supplanted with something more according with the taste and comfort of the present times.
§ Sir Edward Sugdensaid, he must protest against the doctrine which had been advanced in the course of the debate, that the Crown lands were to be liable for debts contracted in the manner these had been contracted. It had been intimated, on one or two occasions, that one of the first measures of a Reformed Parliament would be, to sell the Crown Lands and apply the produce to the liquidation of; the National Debt: in short, that so soon as the people alone were represented, they would take the hereditary revenue of the Crown to themselves. The King had as good a title to these lands as any private gentleman had to his estates. Whoever, therefore, struck the first blow at the hereditary revenues of the Crown would lessen the security of private property.
Mr. Jameswas obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his information; but he, at the same time, believed, that when the Civil List was voted at the commencement of a new reign, the Crown lands became public property.
§ Sir Edward Sugdenassured the hon. Gentleman he had taken a wrong view of the case. The hereditary revenues were only given to the public for the life of the Sovereign. So soon as the Civil List expired with the demise of the Crown, the Crown lands became again the property of the successor, until a new bargain was made. Whoever attempted wholly to alienate these revenues, would be guilty of a revolutionary act.
§ Mr. Daniel Whittle Harveysaid, if it was indeed a revolutionary act to dispose of the Crown property for the public benefit, the House had frequently been guilty of such acts; for large estates belonging to the Crown had been disposed of, and the purchase money brought into the common coffers of the State. The question of Crown property, however, and the manner in which its revenues ought to be applied, was of too much importance to be entered into on an incidental discussion.
Mr. Goulburnagreed with the hon. Gentleman, that this was not the proper time to enter into such a discussion; but, at the same time, he must enter his protest against the doctrine, that the hereditary revenues of the Crown were nothing more than public property, to be dealt with as the House might determine. At the proper opportunity, he should be prepared to show, that such a doctrine was wholly at variance with the principles of the Constitution.
Mr. Humeremained decidedly of opinion that this grant was improper, and ought not to be made until the Committee had made their final report. He should, therefore, persist in his Amendment, that the Chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit again.
§ The Committee divided upon this Amendment:—Ayes 12; Noes 110—Majority 98.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Blamire, T. | Rider, T. |
| Briscoe, J. I. | Sibthorp, Colonel |
| Dick, Q. | Torrens, Colonel |
| Hunt, H. | Walker, J. |
| James, W. | Wilks, J. |
| Paget, T. | TELLER. |
| Pelham, J. Cresset | Hume, J. |
§ Original Question put and carried. Question put, that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. Humecomplained of the conduct of the Chairman, and observed, that he 727 must say, that it was not fair to his hon. friend, the member for Carlisle, who intended to take the sense of the House upon his Amendment, after the first had been disposed of—that the question should be put so hastily, and in so low a tone of voice, when the House was in such confusion after the division, that it could not not be heard.
Mr. Bernal(the Chairman) said, that since he had had the honour to fill that Chair—and he considered it a high honour—he had endeavoured, on every occasion, to discharge his duty to the best of his ability. He had been as desirous to do so on the present occasion as on any other; and he was not aware, that anything he had done had, in the least degree, entitled the hon. Member to make the observation which imputed to him the having acted with unfairness towards another hon. Member. Having said this, he should now do no more than throw himself upon the judgment of the Committee.
Mr. Humesaid, that it was fit every Member should hear a question when it was put; and he declared that he had not heard the question of the amendment of his hon. friend put to the Committee.
Mr. Jameswas quite ready to say, that he considered the hon. Member (Mr. Bernal) to be generally the best Chairman (of course he did not include the Speaker) that that House had had since he had been a Member of it, and that was, with some intermission, since 1820; but on this occasion, he was bound to say, that he did not hear the question put. He did not mean to say that the question was not put, but he did not hear it. It might have been put when the Members were crossing to their places, and he did not hear it in the confusion.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that the question had been regularly put, and that there was no ground whatever for such an observation as that made by the hon. member for Middlesex.
§ Mr. George Robinsondid not think that there had been more haste than usual on this occasion; on the contrary, he thought the question had been put with perfect deliberation; and if hon. Gentlemen would not return in time to their places, they must take the consequences of their own fault.
§ On the Question, that the Chairman ask leave to sit again.
§ Colonel Trenchwished to put a ques 728 tion to the noble Lord opposite respecting a building which this morning had a notice put upon it, stating that it was to be sold, but from which that notice had subsequently been removed—he alluded to the old stables near Charing Cross. He understood that it was in contemplation to take them away altogether, in order to complete the projected improvements there by the erection of another building upon their site. Now, such a building would be most expensive; and he begged to repeat an opinion he had expressed both to the former and the present Chief Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, that that large expense was unnecessary; and that, by proper alterations, and for a couple of thousand pounds, the buildings there might be made handsome ornaments of the place. At one time, it was understood that a gallery was to be formed there; but to whatever purpose the building was intended to be applied, he must say, that he believed it unnecessary to pull it down. He wished to ask whether it was intended to pull down these stables?
§ No answer given.
§ House resumed.