HC Deb 15 September 1831 vol 7 cc78-85

Lord Althorp moved the third reading of the Wine Duties Bill.

Mr. Herries

said, that this was a question of primary importance, not only in a commercial, but also in a political point of view. It was intended by this measure to change altogether the political and mercantile relations between this country and our most ancient and faithful ally Portugal, in reference to its staple trade with this country, and as a necessary consequence, our export trade with that country. Even upon the statement of the noble Lord himself, no man could know in what way his Majesty's Ministers were justified in passing a Bill, the only effect of which seemed to be, to place additional taxes to the amount of 180,000l. upon the people. It was not as a question of finance alone that he considered it important; nor was it so important commercially as politically. As to the Methuen Treaty, he would ask the noble Lord whether a continuance of 130 years was not enough to make it so binding upon both parties, that neither could abrogate it without notice or explanation to the other? Was it to be considered so little binding upon England, that it could be terminated by a vote of that House, without even any ground of necessity having been alleged to excuse the violation? Was that done, then, merely to show our disregard of Treaties, and to give warning to other nations never to rely upon our friendship, or to expect from us an observance of our obligations? As the case now stood, the conclusion was inevitable, that there was some political motive for that proceeding which was not disclosed. His Majesty's Ministers ought to have pursued a course, not merely consistent with what we owe to Portugal, but also with what Britain owed to her own dignity. From the unusual and almost unaccountable delay in the production of those papers which had been called for respecting our relations with Portugal—from the reluctance which was manifested to supply information upon that subject—the only conclusion which could be arrived at was, that his Majesty's Ministers had determined upon some new course of policy. It would seem from their conduct, that they thought it better for the interest of England, that the Peninsula should be left entirely in the hands of France, than that any part of it should be connected with England, or dependent upon her friendship. The object of this Bill was to transfer the advantages given heretofore to Portuguese wine to the wines of its wealthy and powerful rival in this article. The effect would not be confined to Portugal: it would, as a consequence reach our return trade thither in woollen, cotton, and hardware goods, as well as all British investments of a mercantile nature in the country of our ancient ally. As a commercial measure he deprecated it, because he felt, that in their eagerness to carry into effect the general principle of free trade, in the hope that all things would shortly find their level between this and other manufacturing countries, such as France, the noble Lord had altogether left out of his calculation the inevitable distress and particular failures which must be the consequences of the interruption of our long established trade, in respect to exporting houses trading principally to Portugal. They were abandoning a connexion with a nation which could not be a rival, for the sake of a connexion with one which was in all respects a rival. He thought, that the consequences to British commerce would be such, as no man would more regret than the noble Lord himself. He had heard, indeed, that the measure would be advantageous to British commerce; but in what way he had not been told. No arrangement had been made, that France should receive British manufactures in return for the advantages which the Bill would give that nation. He could see nothing in the measure that was commercially advantageous; and, politically, he thought it most ill-advised. He protested against the passing of a measure so ill-timed, ill-advised, and ill-digested.

Lord Althorp

said, that the right hon. Gentleman had entered into the different points of this question, politically, commercially, and financially considered, and it was, therefore, necessary for him to touch upon those three points. With respect to the remarks he had made upon his Budget, although on some questions he had not been so fortunate as to meet the concurrence of the House, yet he might claim the merit of having relieved the country by the reduction of the duties on coals and printed calicoes, and a future reduction of the duty on candles. The taxes he had proposed to substitute for them, had not all met the approbation of the House; and this tax was a part of them. As to the returns of revenue leading to the presumption that this tax was not necessary, he could only say, that having lost several taxes, it was not possible for the Government to afford to give it up. The objection of the right hon. Gentleman, that there had been no warning given of the abandonment of the Treaty had been disposed of on a former occasion. It was clear, that we had the right to abandon the Methuen Treaty if we pleased, and nothing, in his opinion, could be better adapted to promote the political interests of England, than drawing closer the bonds of amity between this country and France, if it could be done without offence to Portugal. If we were justified by the spirit of the Methuen Treaty, in abandoning the advantages afforded us by Portugal, by the admission of our woollens, there was no ground to expect that the general ties of amity with Portugal would thereby be dissolved. It was the policy of England, for the sake of our general relations with the Continent, of Europe, to be on terms of political friendship with France. As a measure of commercial policy, the right hon. Gentleman had admitted the general principle, that it was desirable to trade with a rich country as much as we could; but it so happened, that whenever a general principle was stated, it was always sure to be followed up by saying, that the case under consideration was not proper for its application. When he saw a general principle, the application of which was unobjectionable, he always wished to carry it into effect as speedily as possible. The right hon. Gentleman had not made out any ground of exception in respect to this case. The only ground he had alleged was, that the trade of Spain and Portugal were to be considered as one, and that our manufactures were favoured by them above those of any other country. In respect to Portugal he admitted this to be correct; but as to Spain, the argument of the right hon. Gentleman had surprised him, since our linens were almost prohibited in Spain. He had no reason to expect, that the effect of the alteration contemplated would diminish the exportation of British manufactures to Portugal, for this simple reason—because we were able to supply them cheaper than any other country. The right hon. Member had also looked at the measure in a financial point of view, and said, that the former reduction of wine duties was productive of good effects. This was true, but he did not consider that he was departing from the principle of the former reduction by the present Bill. He reduced the duties on French wines, and the increase he made in the duties on other wines was so small, that it was very improbable that it would diminish consumption. The only effect it was likely to have was, to diminish the consumption of the one class of wines while it increased the consumption of French wines. The scale of this Bill made the higher-priced wines of France dearer, but then it made the lower-priced wines of that country cheaper than the wines of Portugal. In a word, the wine would be procured at a cheaper rate under this measure than under the present law, and while it imposed no burthen on the country it would give an increase of revenue to the amount of 180,000l. a year. He had long thought, that the Governments of this country had pursued a wrong policy with regard to duties on wine, and he had, therefore, taken an early opportunity of introducing this measure.

Mr. Goulburn

was happy to hear from the noble Lord, that a general financial statement would be submitted to the House. He would reserve himself until that statement was made; but in the mean time he must observe, that the noble Lord had no reason to congratulate himself upon having selected the duty on coals as the duty which it was most advisable to take off when he was making a reduction of taxation. It now turned out—as he always expected it would—that while 6s. a chaldron was taken from the revenue, the consumer was benefitted only to the amount of 2s. per chaldron. The noble Lord, therefore, had no reason to congratulate himself upon the reduction of taxation which he had made when he took off the coal-duty, neither did he think that the noble Lord had sufficiently considered the consumer when he laid on the present tax; for while the noble Lord got 180,000l., he imposed a tax upon the consumer of at least double the amount which he received in the Treasury. This was all he should at present state upon our financial condition. As to the question now before them, the noble Lord had abstained, in his answer to his noble friend, from all allusion to our treaties with Portugal, and the result which was likely to follow from the abandonment of those treaties. The noble Lord had said, that Portugal had by this time had full notice of the measure; but he must be allowed to observe, that a measure lying for six months on the Table of that House was not what ought to be considered as a notice to Portugal. The noble Lord had said, that this measure would draw closer the ties between this country and France. Now, he was one of those who admitted that it was sound policy to draw close those ties, and he should be most happy to see them drawn close; but the noble Lord had not shown to the House either that those ties might not be preserved without this measure, or that the measure had been required or even asked for by France. When were the ties between this country and France closer than in the reign of George 2nd; and did not Mr. Pitt subsequently make a commercial treaty with France without committing any infraction of the Methuen Treaty? The noble Lord had also asked, what advantage this country had to thank Spain for; but the answer to that question was to be found in the fact, that we stood upon the same footing as other countries with regard to Spain, and in the amount of British produce which found its way into the Peninsula; for whether that produce went to Spain, or was consumed in Portugal, did not matter. He objected to this measure as destroying those ties which bound Portugal to this country, and which had made Portugal, in fact, almost a province of this country. He heartily trusted, that the gloomy anticipations which he entertained with regard to the results of the measure might not be realized.

Mr. Briscoe

alluded to the disappointment which had taken place with regard to the expected relief from removing the duty on coals—a relief which it was particularly hoped would be a great benefit to the poorer classes. The cause of this disappointment was to be found in the fact, that there was a monopoly of the article, and he thought that the public had great reason to complain of the conduct of the individuals who enjoyed that monopoly. If these individuals pursued the same conduct, and the price of coal continued as high as it was at present, he should move, in the next Session, that the duty be reimposed, and that some other taxes be taken off in its stead.

Mr. Courtenay

must contend, that we had no right to depart from the Methuen Treaty without the consent of Portugal, unless in consequence of injuries committed by Portugal against us, and satisfaction for those injuries being refused. It was evident that Portugal had not consented; and the other point could only be ascertained by papers for which he had some time since moved, and the propriety of producing which, at the earliest possible opportunity, he took this opportunity of again urging upon the noble Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

Mr. Stuart Wortley

should be sorry to lend his assistance to the engrafting upon a debate upon the wine duties a discussion upon the coal duties, but he felt it necessary to make one observation upon the latter subject, in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. member for Surrey. Tire coal-owners had derived no more benefit from the reduction of the duty than the hon. member for Surrey had. The fact was, that immediately on the remission of the duty, there was a great reduction in the price of that supply of coals which was then in the London market; but as soon as the news of the remission of the duty reached the pit-men, they stood out for higher wages; and this was the reason of the subsequent rise in the price of coals. He assured the hon. member for Surrey, that the coal-owners had not the means of making that combination which the hon. Member evidently supposed they had entered into.

Viscount Palmerston

begged to state, with regard to the papers to which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Courtenay) had alluded, that no time had been or would be lost, in producing them. He could not state the precise day on which he should be able to lay them on the Table; but some of them were already printed, and others were in the course of being copied out with all possible expedition. He begged to set the right hon. Gentleman right upon one point on which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to be in error. This measure had not been rested by his noble friend, neither had their right to depart from the Methuen Treaty been rested by his noble friend, upon any grievances or injuries which we had received from the hands of Portugal, but simply upon the nature of the stipulations of that treaty itself. He was ready to demonstrate, in opposition to the right hon. Gentleman, or to any one else who advanced a contrary doctrine, that we had a perfect right to depart, whenever we pleased, from that treaty, both without giving any notice to Portugal of our intention so to do, and also without our having experienced grievances or injuries from that country. At the same time, let him tell the right hon. Gentleman, that if there were any necessity to show it, there would be no difficulty at all in showing that Portugal had violated over and over again, even in regard to this very wine trade, the stipulations of treaties which existed between this country and Portugal. This, however, was not, he repeated, a ground upon which his noble friend based the measure now under consideration.

Mr. Courtenay

had understood the noble Lord (Althorp) to state injuries we had experienced from Portugal as one of the grounds of the measure.

Lord Althorp

Then I have been very much misunderstood by the hon. Gentleman, for I certainly never stated any thing of the kind.

Bill read a third time, and passed.